Is U.S. at war with Russia?

[Childlike Empress]

Nope. Too much hysteria, but some good points amid all the sound and fury. His Chicken Little bit about the naval armada once again heading to attack Iran, exercises, etc, detracted from the main points offered by citing Gorbachev's remarks. (I think Gorby's article was on point, for the most part.)

Detailed critique later.

DR

I completely agree. I didn't say it's excellently written. But if you substract his opinions, speculations, derailes and maybe little inaccuracies, what remains is an excellent summary.

Want evidence? If we claim "fair use", we should be fair and post the article in its entirety. So what i've done is going through it and substracting everything you've quoted in your "detailed critique". Added a few words for context.

See, an excellent summary, cut to the core by Darth Rotor and copypasted by me:

The BBC, AP, NPR, the New York Times and the rest of the establishment media has consistently and deliberately misled its readers into believing that the violence in South Ossetia was initiated by the Kremlin. Let's be clear, it wasn't. In truth, there is NO dispute about the facts except among the people who rely the western press for their information. Despite its steady loss of credibility, the corporate media continues to operate as the propaganda-arm of the Pentagon.

Edited by Cuddles: 

Removed breach of rule 4.

 

[egslim]

What makes me different form some of the Cold Warriors who can't let go is that once the Wall fell, my strategic focus went to the Pacific Rim, which is where the next century power struggle, be it economic, political, or what, will be engaged in. I was impressed with how the Germans of the Western part put up the dough to expedite the refusion of Germany into one nation. (Yes, our German friends will point out to us that it wasn't all sweetness and light. But for my money, they got it right.) My personal belief in the early part of the 90's was that China was a rising power, and is pursuing power and influence for its own ends. It is and was, IMO, profoundly in American interests to make friends with Russia with the long game as the justification.

No such thing as perpetual friends or eternal enemies, only perpetual and eternal interests.

What wasn't gotten right in Washington was forgetting the lesson of post WW II. This is, IMO, due to too many people making a buck in China, or seeing cash register signs in their eyes and forgetting that money isn't everything.

You're quite right, and it's one of the dangers of free trade that isn't covered in Economics 101 courses.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Secret President McCain has sent his secret presidential envoys Senators Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman to Georgia. I hope they don't bump into Condoleeza Rice too hard. She was sent there by our other President.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/president-mccai.html

 

[Darth Rotor]

I completely agree. I didn't say it's excellently written. But if you substract his opinions, speculations, derailes and maybe little inaccuracies, what remains is an excellent summary.

Uh, the problem was his errors of fact and hyperbole, and a bit of CT side tracking, not to mention a few good points that I pointed to, and some fine points made not by Mike, but by Gorby and Vlad. The whole Brzezinski / WNO departure was the core problem with the article. Smacks of CT woo.

Want evidence? If we claim "fair use", we should be fair and post the article in its entirety.

I did post the link, and the original link to the W Post. I chopped a few bits that were Gorby and Vlad's speeches, as I both concurred and didn't want to waste more space, and I cut some of the even more pointless moaning. Again, I provided the link, but I will confess that it makes it a "point by point of most, not all, of the article" presentation. I had Rule 4 to deal with, Empress.

Sorry you weren't happy with it. I think I presented enough of Mike's hyperbole and a few errors of fact to raise the eyebrow and grain of salt on this commentary. But by all means, I do encourage anyone to read his entire article, and decide for themselves. I should have said that up front. Mea Culpa on that.

DR

 

[Childlike Empress]

Uh, the problem was his errors of fact and hyperbole, and a bit of CT side tracking, not to mention a few good points that I pointed to, and some fine points made not by Mike, but by Gorby and Vlad. The whole Brzezinski / WNO departure was the core problem with the article. Smacks of CT woo.

You should really read up on Brzezinski. He is much more than some old chap from the carter era. His children are well-placed, too.

I did post the link, and the original link to the W Post. I chopped a few bits that were Gorby and Vlad's speeches, as I both concurred and didn't want to waste more space, and I cut some of the even more pointless moaning. Again, I provided the link, but I will confess that it makes it a "point by point of most, not all, of the article" presentation. I had Rule 4 to deal with, Empress.

Sorry you weren't happy with it. I think I presented enough of Mike's hyperbole and a few errors of fact to raise the eyebrow and grain of salt on this commentary. But by all means, I do encourage anyone to read his entire article, and decide for themselves. I should have said that up front. Mea Culpa on that.

DR

I wasn't unhappy with it, it's just that there is no way of answering to such a giant, emotional nitpick. So i took the easy way out and collected only the stuff you didn't comment on, which makes a very interesting read - perhaps especially for you ;-) I'm going to send you a PM with the collection, since the mods here don't appreciate our creative work!

edit: Oh and i was aware that you linked to Gorby and mentioned Vlad. I wasn't attacking you at all.

 

[Matteo Martini]

I don't even have a clear grasp of what exactly is going on in this region, could anyone please unravel it for me? Is it just because South Ossetia wants to remain independent?

Not really.

Georgia has bombed Southern Ossezia, a tiny State, equivalent to a medium-size Italian province. Estimates put the number of deaths at 1300. Almost all of them civilians. So Russia invaded Ossezia with its tanks and proceeded to bomb the Georgian Capital, Tiblisi. Meanwhile, Putin and Bush were exchanging niceties at the Olympics of Hypocrisy and the European Union failed to say a word. This is a new kind of war that is all about energy. From Kazakhstan, gas and crude oil could be sent to Europe without passing through Russian territory. Georgia is being provided with arms by Israel and the United States. Georgia’s President gets himself photographed standing between the national flag and that of the European Union, of which Georgia wants to become a member.
Ossezia is yet another episode in the global war over crude oil, which began with the first invasion of Iraq in 1991. Saddam attacked Kuwait and Bush senior intervened. Not to liberate the place but to prevent Saddam from controlling the flow of crude oil from the Persian Gulf. Bush junior continued the task begun earlier by his father, using the cock and bull excuse of some or other weapons of mass destruction. Do you honestly believe that the Americans actually give a damn about the inhabitants of either Kuwait or Iraq, especially given the fact that they failed to lift a finger to stop the genocide taking place in Rwanda and Darfur?
China, instead, buys crude oil from Iran and is probably selling arms to that country. Iran wants to replace the petro-Dollar with the Petro-Euro. Israel threatens to bomb Iran because of its nuclear power development policies. Chechnya is a place of strategic importance for the Russian oil pipelines. This is the real reason behind the Chechnyan massacres and the ongoing state of war. The world is divided into zones based on the control of crude oil supplies. Wherever there are oil wells, there is also (almost always) an ongoing war or a military occupation. Any area of strategic importance for the passage of crude oil is also (almost always) the scene of armed conflict. The G8+1 (China) and -1 (Italy) gathers regularly to agree on energy control zones. No war must be allowed to break out amongst the members of this group, so instead they allow their subjects to be massacred during the course of minor wars in obscure outposts that (also) happen to purchase their weapons. A dual business: arms and crude oil.
Fortunate are those without oil wells, for they will inherit peace.

http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2008/08/the_global_war_over_crude_oil_1.html#comments

Uh, the problem was his errors of fact and hyperbole, and a bit of CT side tracking, not to mention a few good points that I pointed to, and some fine points made not by Mike, but by Gorby and Vlad. The whole Brzezinski / WNO departure was the core problem with the article. Smacks of CT woo.

If this is something different from a non-sensical bubbling of incomprehensible words..
Somebody wake me up..

You don't actually think Pravda is a reliable news source, do you?

Almost as much as Fox News..

 

[SteveGrenard]

An excellent account what is probably the most salient and relevant aspect underlying the true nature of Russia's latest adventure. The U.S. President and other world leaders (e.g. President of France) and even our candidates in the U.S. seem to have studiously avoided bringing this up. I don't believe they have forgotten Russia's use of witholding natural gas as a "weapon" against Europe and the Ukraine back in 2005-2006. The pack of them, Bush-Cheney, McCain and Obama think the people, you and me, are a bunch of morons.

For a review of the geopolitics of natural gas the following piece in The Nation
may be of interest:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Oil_watch/Geopolitics_NaturalGas.html

The analysis is by Michael T Klare, The Nation's defense correspondent; he is a professor of peace and world security studies at Hampshire College and the author
of Blood and Oil

ETA...here is an Op-Ed which delves into the facts behind recent events and holds the Georgian President responsible for Russia's behavior which he may've provoked. Georgia clearly earns the title of the "mouse that roared".......

Headlined on 8/16/08:

Readjustments in Pipelineistan

by Kenneth Anderson
www.opednews.com

Georgia has long been viewed as an alternative -- indeed, the only alternative -- to trans-Russian transport of Central Asian oil and gas to western markets. To that end, the crown jewel of the movement was the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, which saw its opening in May of 2006. Initially, Russia expressed resistance to the BTC pipeline, but viewed it as predictable competition to its near-monopoly on European petroleum delivery, uttering only the occasional diatribe against the project. Operations of the pipeline and two others through Georgia proceeded apace, delivering some 1.5 million bbls/day of oil to western markets with little political or economic friction. Until now. Now, the moronic military move by Mikheil Saakashvili has entirely jeopardized his country's unique strategic situation, causing untold concern for oil markets, producers and foreign investors. As usual, however, the American foreign policy establishment continues to paint Russia as the "unstable" actor in the conflict, but Georgia's neighbors are too well-informed for that nonsense.

Besides, most utterances by the Washington circuit are meant for western, and especially American public, consumption, which means they don't generally comport with reality.

Read the rest of this at:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Readjustments-in-Pipelinei-by-Kenneth-Anderson-080816-471.html

 

[SteveGrenard]

US Guided Missile Destroyer lands in Georgia

It is difficult at this point to say what this actually portends, but is reported anyway:

US warship reaches Georgia with aid


The USS McFaul, a guided-missile destroyer, arrived in Georgia with 55 tonnes of aid [AFP]

A US naval guided-missile destroyer has arrived in the Georgian port of Batumi, about 80km south of the Black Sea port of Poti where Russian troops remain present.The USS McFaul, the first of five US ships scheduled to arrive this week, reached the port on Sunday about 55 tonnes of aid for Georgia following its conflict with Russia.The US has already delivered some aid to the country by military cargo plane."The United States is our great friend. They have arrived at such a difficult time. It means we are not alone," David Kezerashvili, the Georgian defence minister, said.Map

But a top Russian general has accused Nato countries of using humanitarian aid as a "cover" for a build-up of naval forces in the Black Sea.Al Jazeera's Neave Barker, reporting from Moscow, said that the Russian government considered the presence of the US vessel "very dubious indeed"."This is a missile cruiser, it has Tomahawk missiles, it has an array of weapons on board ... no doubt this is going to be sending negative signals to the Russian command," he said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008824132649187692.html

There are allegedly five more US Warships steaming toward Georgia.

 

[jdp]

This situation make me wonder how the Georgians could have possibly thought they could have relied on the US when playing chicken with the Russians. We're tied down in too many places already I don't think the US could provide much aside from diplomatic pressure. And even if we could, would we go to the mat for Georgia?

 

[SteveGrenard]

This situation make me wonder how the Georgians could have possibly thought they could have relied on the US when playing chicken with the Russians. We're tied down in too many places already I don't think the US could provide much aside from diplomatic pressure. And even if we could, would we go to the mat for Georgia?

Good question. Perhaps Putin will have an answer for this. I hope this isn't true but we'll know soon enough if it is:

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Russia/idUSLT62235520080829

By Guy Faulconbridge
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said U.S. military advisers had been involved in this month's conflict in Georgia and the White House could have planned it to help Republicans win the U.S. election.

Putin's comments, broadcast by a German television station on Friday, expanded on remarks in an interview with CNN shown on Thursday which the White House said were "patently false".

Russia faces a storm of criticism from the United States and European Union over its military intervention in Georgia's breakaway South Ossetia region and recognition of South Ossetia and another separatist part of Georgia as independent states.
Putin said Russia had acted fully in accordance with international law in defending South Ossetia, which was attacked by Georgian forces on Aug 7-8, sparking an international crisis.

"We know there were a lot of U.S. advisers (in Georgia)... but instructors, teachers and personnel for military weapons should be on firing ranges and in the teaching centers -- but where were they? They were in the zone of military operations."