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Examples of bad "design" in humans

You're funny! Humans are the best endurance runners on this planet.


Tell that to the Red Kangaroo. It can maintain a speed of 12 mph for hours on end. Most humans, by comparison, would probably die if forced to run more than down to their local dairy... ;)

This is of course irrelevant - just because we are good endurance runners doesn't mean we are more stable.
 
breathing and eating through the same orifice is a commonly quoted one.

That is really only true for humans though, as the laranx on other mamals permits them to drink and breath at the same time.

But humans can talk instead.
 
I don't believe it exists. Most animals out there have no trouble outrunning us, even if they have shorter legs than us. If we're "designed" for anything when it comes to locomotion, it's stability: the ability to stand still using very little energy, walk at an efficient pace for long long times for little energy expense, and carry loads with us. Running/jumping would have called for instability and sacrificed those things.

Sort of, humans are actualy very good at distance running compared to most other animals. So humans can hunt by running deer into the ground by following them for long enough. And yes that is as an individual.

It is not a commonly used hunting strategy now, but 100,000 years ago or more it might have been a common hunting strategy.
 
The trade off for being able to outrun anything, as well as many other benefits, favors the upright stance. Most healthy people never have back problems.

Wait, WHAT?

What can we outrun? Dogs? No. Large Cats? Hah. Hooved animals? Um... no. Goats? Hah. Elephants? Well, we can outdo them in short bursts, but they have a consistent speed of 25 km/h, which we certainly can't keep up for any length of time. Kangaroos? Yeah... right.

Is there anything in the 100-200 pound weight class we outrun?

Two legs is PATHETIC for run speed.

It's useful because we get to use legs 3 and 4 for other things. Which could have been solved if we'd just had 6 legs in the first place.

Four limbs, two for manipulation, two for movement is a TERRIBLE design.

Edit: I see I'm trodding on well traveled ground. Still, what a stupid statement.
 
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The advantage is that we are average on all forms of terrain.

But we're not. We're useless on all terrain except dead flat.



Sure the dolphin can swim faster than a human but when have you heard of a dolphin that can walk on land.

Don't be ridiculous, we're talking about terrestrial animals. If you're going to make this argument I'd point out that there's a large number of birds that can fly, swim, float, dive, and move about on land perfectly happily.



And contrary to your thinking humanities gait was actually proven to be the most efficient method of a bipedal gait compared to other forms that have been tried.

All I said was it's unstable, not inefficient. Our bipedal movement for walking is certainly pretty good, and for running it's not bad either, but the Red Kangaroo eats us alive as far as long distance bipedal gait goes, and it's vastly more stable. The arguments made for superior human long distance running tend to focus on the fact that we voluntarily run marathons, and animals don't, but I've always found this to be a rather enormously stupid argument. Most animals never do anything for fun, and humans are renowned for doing things for fun that we're incredibly crap at - just look at the average human and sex. Further those humans that can do these sorts of things are the exception, not the norm - only 1% of people will ever complete a marathon in their lives and of that 1% only 10% will manage it in less than 4 hours. What's impressive about humans is that we're able to utilise our will power - a by product of our highly advanced brain - to push our body to perform in a way it isn't intended to perform. Mind over matter. That's why we're remarkable.

Anyway, as far as whether our bipedal gait is any good, I think you're missing my point. My point isn't necessarily that our method of bipedal locomotion is the worst form of bipedal locomotion (it has its advantages and disadvantages) but that bipedal locomotion of any type is a flawed design (reinforced by how few animals rely on it as their primary mode of transport). (And for what it's worth the key factors contributing to our long distance running abilities are our hairlessness, sweat glands, and ability to breath through our mouth - having nothing to do with being bipeds).

I'd posit that a hairless, sweating quadruped that could breath through its mouth would out perform humans in long distance running. Imagine a hairless, sweating, mouth-breathing kangaroo!



So wait your not throwing in all birds because of why now????? They do use two legs to walk you know.

Birds primarily transport themselves by flying, thus they are irrelevant. When I first raised this I did highlight flightless birds, but pointed at the the presence of wings on flightless birds tended to rather undermine the entire Intelligent Design thing, hence why I left them out.

And before anyone tries to argue that kangaroos hop and don't run, I'd then point out that running is an inherently flawed method for long distance travel, so let's not get into those sorts of semantics.
 
Sort of, humans are actualy very good at distance running compared to most other animals. So humans can hunt by running deer into the ground by following them for long enough. And yes that is as an individual.

But this has nothing to do with us being bipeds. And ironically, one of the key "design" features that benefits us is also one of the first "design flaws" raised in this thread - being able to breath through our mouth.

Humans were able to outrun other animals because they over heated and collapsed from heat stroke, whereas our readily sweating bodies, lack of hair, and ability to breath through our mouths enabled us to keep cooler and oxygenated for longer.

Interestingly the Red Kangaroo - which we can't out run, solved the problem by having a vastly more efficient method of movement, thus Red Kangaroos don't build up lactic acid, don't increase their heart rates, and don't raise body temperature at anywhere near the rate humans or other animals do - in fact kangaroos are more efficient at speeds between 10km/h and 35km/h than any other speed, which makes me tend to argue they are the world's optimum long distance land travel design.
 
Most animals never do anything for fun, and humans are renowned for doing things for fun that we're incredibly crap at - just look at the average human and sex.

Oi! Speak for yourself, Gumboot!
 
In cetaceans the breathing pipe and food pipe are separate. Cetaceans can not choke, and they can sing (some of them, anyway).

Yeah, but if there blowhole gets stopped up they can't become a mouth breather.

We can switch breathing holes in case of trouble. And if things are really bad, we can also throw up through our nose, so think of it as a backup system.
 
All I said was it's unstable, not inefficient. Our bipedal movement for walking is certainly pretty good, and for running it's not bad either, but the Red Kangaroo eats us alive as far as long distance bipedal gait goes, and it's vastly more stable. The arguments made for superior human long distance running tend to focus on the fact that we voluntarily run marathons, and animals don't, but I've always found this to be a rather enormously stupid argument. .

Also the fact that certain currently existant cultures do use this as a method of hunting. See the human episode in life of mamals.

So it might be a stupid argument, but it is also correct.

There are only four men on Earth who can run
a kudu antelope to its death. They are Kalahari
bushmen, and this ‘persistence hunt’ is thought
to link modern humans to the earliest form of
human hunting. Humans hunt animals with
more techniques than any other mammals and
have learnt to shape wild animals to their needs
by domesticating them.

pdf link
 
But this has nothing to do with us being bipeds. And ironically, one of the key "design" features that benefits us is also one of the first "design flaws" raised in this thread - being able to breath through our mouth.

The animals people chase down can breath throught their mouths too
Humans were able to outrun other animals because they over heated and collapsed from heat stroke, whereas our readily sweating bodies, lack of hair, and ability to breath through our mouths enabled us to keep cooler and oxygenated for longer.

Possible, but I would like to see that the it was heat exaustion and not more general exaustion that was generaly the reason why humans can win such endurrance races.
 
The men attempted to run prey to exhaustion only when temperatures neared 100 degrees F, says Liebenberg. Three men would gulp a lot of water and head out together. Two initially did the hard work of tracking and pursuing over the arid grassland and woodland terrain, while the other held back. Eventually, the leaders dropped behind, leaving the third man to hound and spear the antelope when it reached its limit. "The animal will either just completely collapse, or it will actually slow down to a point where it just stands there . . . with sort of glazed-over eyes," Liebenberg says. "Essentially, you're pushing the animal to overheat."

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/may/tramps-like-us/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=

In which it is explained that running an animal to ground is only done when it is hot, and how our butt works as a tail.
 
Blind spots caused by blood vessels passing over the retina.

Please forgive me for arriving late to the party.

I have no information on blind spots caused by blood vessels but the blind spot in vertebrate eyes exists where the optic nerve connects to the optic disc. I submit that this is a design flaw because cephalopod eyes, which evolved independently, do not suffer from this shortcoming.
 
Sticking with the topic of the eye, we are stricken with change blindness. We cannot perceive a change in our field of vision when it happens during a saccade.
 
Also the fact that certain currently existant cultures do use this as a method of hunting. See the human episode in life of mamals.

So it might be a stupid argument, but it is also correct.


The stupid argument isn't that some people do it for food, the stupid argument is that some people do it for fun.

The facts:

1. Some humans display impressive long distance running ability for fun
2. Some humans display impressive long distance running ability for survival

Are not the same. And more importantly, neither automatically leads to "therefore the human body is the best designed shape for long distance running".

That just doesn't follow at all. Point 2) is a stronger argument to support this conclusion, but point 1) is just stupid, which is what I was pointing to.

For what it's worth, if we're looking at terrestrial endurance, the winners have to be sled dogs.
 
Except that your problem here is aerodynamically unstable aircraft designs are as stable as other aircraft, once the computer compensation is taken into account. Humans are just unstable, period.

Our brains certainly manage our instability enough that we can deal with it, but we're still way behind other animals.

I find this a very curious argument given that the pinnacles of human stability are competing with each other right now in Beijing, doing things that no other creature can even come close to doing.
 
The stupid argument isn't that some people do it for food, the stupid argument is that some people do it for fun.

The facts:

1. Some humans display impressive long distance running ability for fun
2. Some humans display impressive long distance running ability for survival

Are not the same. And more importantly, neither automatically leads to "therefore the human body is the best designed shape for long distance running".

I am not saying it is especialy well designed, but argument initialy presented was that humans where significantly inferior to quadropeds in general, and that really isn't true, humans are good a endurrance running and not the sprinting running most quadropeds are much better than humans at.
 
I find this a very curious argument given that the pinnacles of human stability are competing with each other right now in Beijing, doing things that no other creature can even come close to doing.

Okay, no other creature?

Take any athlete from Beijing. Any. Single. One.

Now pit it against a racehorse. Doesn't even have to be a prizewinner. Who wins that? Oh yeah, not the human. Ditto for Kangaroo, any large cat, etc.

Weight Lifting? Please, show me one that can move more than a strong Gorilla, Horse, or Elephant.

Gymnastics? Do you really think any of them can keep up with monkeys? They move through trees like they're highways.

Swimming? Okay. Have one outswim a Bottlenose dolphin. Waiting.

What are humans good at? Dexterity. None of those animals are good at Archery, target shooting, object manipulation, any of the things we're great at.

But besides manual dexterity, the animals have evolved for other things than we did, and that means even the pinnacles of our limited design are lower than the averages of their species.
 

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