Russia invades Georgia

[OneShotKi11]

Something interesting i did not know:
"Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the United States and Britain. Mr. Saakashvili told CNN the troops would be called home today in the face of the South Ossetia fighting."

THis is the article i snatched this small quote insert from:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080809.OSSETIA09/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

How do you think this will affect the U.S. with the war on terrorism?
What do you think Britain will do with its troops if Georgia pulls out of the war? Possibly no affect at all.
Last i heard they were considering to pull troops out of Iraq if they have not done so already.
(Srry but i am not up to date on my global news as of late. I may be way out of the loop)

 

[moon1969]

I for one find it very interesting that Badri Patarkatsishvili was trying to overthrow Mikheil Saakashvili. That makes one wonder if Boris Berezovsky and Roman Abramovich are russian agents who are working for Russia. Don"t forget that Boris Berezovsky seems to be a good friend of Neil Bush. Russia is trying to bring back the cold war.

 

[egslim]

How do you think this will affect the U.S. with the war on terrorism?

Not at all.

NATO may ask Russians for logistics help in Afghanistan
Especially with the current situation in Pakistan NATO has greater need for Russia than for those 2,000 Georgians.

 

[gumboot]

Russian veto?

But if they invoke Chapter 7, the UNSC is irrelevant.

This seems to be the sort of conflict that could very quickly spill into other states - you've already got various non-state entities sending forces into the conflict, and a lot of the CIS states would be keen to have a go at Russia.

I suspect that the international community will just stand back, wring their hands, speak some somber words about restraint and diplomacy, and do nothing, while civilians die (on both sides of the conflict). But given the situation it's possible it will get worse.

 

[moon1969]

Andrei Lugovoi used to be a head of security at the television company ORT. ORT was owned by Boris Berezovsky and Badri Patarkatsishvili. coincidence? I think not. I hope Leonid Nevzlin exposes the corrupt Kremlin and they will not put him in jail like they put his partner Mikhail Khodorkovsky. What Putin did to Yukos was socialism. Yukos changed to state owned Gazprom. Gazprom basicly took everything that Yukos had.

 

[egslim]

But if they invoke Chapter 7, the UNSC is irrelevant.

Are you sure about that?

http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council
Under Chapter Seven, the Council has broader power to decide what measures are to be taken in situations involving "threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression." In such situations, the Council is not limited to recommendations but may take action, including the use of armed force "to maintain or restore international peace and security." This was the basis for UN armed action in Korea in 1950 and the use of coalition forces in Iraq and Kuwait in 1991. Decisions taken under Chapter Seven, such as economic sanctions, are binding on UN members.

The way I read it, under Chapter 7 it's up to the UNSC to decide on a course of action.

 

[SDC]

When Russia tries to overthrow Mikheil Saakashvili what will the USA do? Will USA turn their backs on Mikheil Saakashvili like USA turned its back on Ngo Dinh Diem and South Vietnam?

Moon1969, it's only of limited relevance to the discussion, but where are you getting your history from?

Yesterday, you referred to the American failure to help Finland during the "winter war" with the Soviets in 1939-40. I think it's fair to say that no one on god's green earth would have suggested that the Americans get involved in that one. We were far away and hardly involved at all in Europe. Now, the UK... I believe Churchill was champing at the bit to help the Finns, but did not.

In 1939, the UK was still the world power with vast interests; look at all the "pink on the map" in atlases of the time. The US only became a world power as a result of its involvement in WW2 -- which certainly had nothing to do with the winter war. (That is, the US involvement had nothing to do with the winter war.)

I apologize if it appears I'm off topic... But I like history to be accurate.

 

[Drewbot]

I can only say, I hope the Russians stop at the border of South Ossetia. If they do that, then this will end. If they don't, then NATO or The U.S. will send in 'Peacekeepers' to Georgia.

Some concerns:
A. Georgia is #3 in terms of troops on the ground in Iraq
B. This may be a percursor to further Russian consolidation of independent states.
C. This may be a warning regarding the 'missle defense shield' The US wants to put in E. Europe. I'm sure some of it is planned for Georgia.
D. S. Ossetians all have Russian issued Passports and Russia considers them to be under the influence of Russia. Georgia considers them part of Georgia. I feel that the people in S.O. want to be part of Russia. What would we do if Quebec wanted to become part of the US? respect Canada's border and right to keep their provinces intact? Allow them to smack the rebellion down? probably.

Note: The Georgians were scheduled to pull their troops out of Iraq by the end of the year i believe

 

[CapelDodger]

Yesterday, you referred to the American failure to help Finland during the "winter war" with the Soviets in 1939-40. I think it's fair to say that no one on god's green earth would have suggested that the Americans get involved in that one. We were far away and hardly involved at all in Europe. Now, the UK... I believe Churchill was champing at the bit to help the Finns, but did not.

Given the later debacles in Norway and France it's just as well he had no great influence at the time. Stirring words cost nothing, fortunately. At the time, with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact still in operation, Russia was regarded as an unfriendly neutral, but then the Finns were getting arms from the Germans. It really was one to stay out of.

In 1939, the UK was still the world power with vast interests; look at all the "pink on the map" in atlases of the time. The US only became a world power as a result of its involvement in WW2 -- which certainly had nothing to do with the winter war. (That is, the US involvement had nothing to do with the winter war.)

Quite. The US became involved because the Japanese attacked it and the Germans declared war on it (and then attacked).

I apologize if it appears I'm off topic... But I like history to be accurate.

A fine sentiment .

 

[Wildy]

If anyone is interested the Russians bombed the city of Gori.

Thing is though, it's 25 km from South Ossetia.

The BBC is reporting that the Georgians are mobilising their forces. I guess they have to because it seems that the Abkhazians sound like they are going to use the Russian invasion as a pretext to start fighting again.

 

[CapelDodger]

Russia claims it wants South-Ossetia to be apart of Russia and independent from Georgia.

Russia supports South Ossetia's claims to the autonomy it enjoyed in Soviet days, If that means it's a Russian Protectorate (which it already is in effect) then that's fine with them. I don't think they're looking to annexe it with all the diplomatic complications that would entail. De facto Russian control is quite sufficient.

Strategically, Russian control of South Ossetia leaves Georgia wide open if the Russians ever do want to invade. But they're going to have to put up with it.

Then how come Russia is not giving independence to Chechnya? Why is dictator Ramzan Kadyrov the president of Chechnya? How hypocritical are the russians? And yeah if the west decides to stay out of this then well just like in WW2 when Roosevelt let Stalin be a dictator. Russia has no right to invade other peoples countries. Still I bet the next will be Estonia or Ukraine. I really hope Russia loses to Georgia.

Georgia's rights to South Ossetia are flimsy at best. Georgia demanded independence from the Soviet Union, but insisted on the borders defined by that very system (with Stalin's fingerprints all over them). If Georgia had a moral right to secede from the USSR (which no doubt they did) then South Ossetia and Abkhazia have just as much moral right to secede from Georgia.

 

[CapelDodger]

If anyone is interested the Russians bombed the city of Gori.

Thing is though, it's 25 km from South Ossetia.

The BBC is reporting that the Georgians are mobilising their forces. I guess they have to because it seems that the Abkhazians sound like they are going to use the Russian invasion as a pretext to start fighting again.

The Georgians were already stirring things up in Abkhazia before this kicked off. An unpopular corrupt government is trying to surf a wave of Georgian nationalism and it will backfire on them, just as Kosovo did on Milosevic.

 

[CapelDodger]

Hundreds dead, fierce fighting. http://www.theage.com.au/world/fier...-after-russian-troop-surge-20080809-3sne.html

I was hoping this would be just a symbolic event that everyone would have the sense to prevent turning into something more serious. Not to be.

This looks like it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Sadly so. The Georgians made a catastrophic miscalculation, and now events will take on a momentum of their own. The only bright spot is that Georgia isn't a NATO member, and it never will be after this performance.

 

[gumboot]

Are you sure about that?

http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council
Under Chapter Seven, the Council has broader power to decide what measures are to be taken in situations involving "threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression." In such situations, the Council is not limited to recommendations but may take action, including the use of armed force "to maintain or restore international peace and security." This was the basis for UN armed action in Korea in 1950 and the use of coalition forces in Iraq and Kuwait in 1991. Decisions taken under Chapter Seven, such as economic sanctions, are binding on UN members.

The way I read it, under Chapter 7 it's up to the UNSC to decide on a course of action.

Sorry I meant specifically Article 41 (collective self defense).

 

[gumboot]

D. S. Ossetians all have Russian issued Passports and Russia considers them to be under the influence of Russia.

This is one thing I find really curious. Russia seems to be citing "protection of its citizens" as their justification for invasion, which suggests to me that they issued these people Russian passports specifically to allow such an act. Seems a bit... well... wrong. Doesn't it? Wouldn't the Georgians have been justified in simply expelling anyone from their territory with a Russian passport?

 

[ddt]

The Georgians were already stirring things up in Abkhazia before this kicked off. An unpopular corrupt government is trying to surf a wave of Georgian nationalism and it will backfire on them, just as Kosovo did on Milosevic.

Well, if Saakashvili^WP has to leave, he and his wife can always go live in the vibrant city of Terneuzen^WP. Don't forget to learn Dutch language and customs, though, or you'll get kicked out again. At least it's better than a The Hague prison.

Thanks, Childlike Empress and egslim, for the links. Still working on them.

 

[plumjam]

It's about time we had another World War, things were starting to drag a bit.
Plus, they'll need something to show on the History and Discovery Channels in 50 years time when the viewing figures for Hitler and his Henchmen start to dwindle.
Bravo Russia. Georgia too, for taking one for the team.

 

[CapelDodger]

This is one thing I find really curious. Russia seems to be citing "protection of its citizens" as their justification for invasion, which suggests to me that they issued these people Russian passports specifically to allow such an act. Seems a bit... well... wrong. Doesn't it? Wouldn't the Georgians have been justified in simply expelling anyone from their territory with a Russian passport?

Nothing justifies expelling people from their land. The fact that so many South Ossetians have sought and been granted Russian citizenship demonstrates that they don't want to be Georgian, and never did. Georgia's claim to South Ossetia is pure imperialism.

 

[CapelDodger]

It's about time we had another World War, things were starting to drag a bit.
Plus, they'll need something to show on the History and Discovery Channels in 50 years time when the viewing figures for Hitler and his Henchmen start to dwindle.

I think they have to settle for "Small Wars of the 21st Century". Which will be good for a series or two, I should think.

 

[geni]

Andrei Lugovoi used to be a head of security at the television company ORT. ORT was owned by Boris Berezovsky and Badri Patarkatsishvili. coincidence? I think not. I hope Leonid Nevzlin exposes the corrupt Kremlin and they will not put him in jail like they put his partner Mikhail Khodorkovsky. What Putin did to Yukos was socialism. Yukos changed to state owned Gazprom. Gazprom basicly took everything that Yukos had.

Ever wounder where Yukos got it's assets from? The reason Putin's renationalisation has reasonable levels of popular support is the process by which they had been sold off in the first place was highly corrupt and unfair. Easy come easy go as they say.