Fyziks 101

[roundhead]

This was answered a long time ago, years before you wrote that post.



In short, the towers fell the way they did because gravity would naturally pull the components downward once they were separated from their supports. When the jets hit, they severed columns. Other columns failed from the heat of the fires. The remainder failed from the overload resulting from the previous two types of failures. Once those failures occurred, the upper section came down onto the lower sections. And that leads back to the posts you continue to ignore, the ones describing how the upper section defeated the individual floors' resistance on the way down. No explosives demolition required. This is not too hard to understand.

"other columns failed from the heat of the fires"

NIST flatly states that 157 of 160 pieces of Steel they tested reached no more than 500 degrees.

There is zero evidence any impact zone steel MELTED(or failed from the heat of the fires). NONE.

Show me where in the NIST report they found melted steel from the impact zone?


Give me a minute, i better go check all my pots and pans from my Kitchen, some of those have been subjected to 500 degress of heat way longer than an hour.

Just got back, all my pots and pans are fine.

 

[Turbofan]

Sorry if we are reading you incorrectly.

Thank you Jaydee sincerely. Even though we don't see eye-to-eye,
I do respect your civil replies.

On that note, I'll just take off and concentrate on FDR threads.

Nicepants: I own a car that goes 0-60 MPH in four seconds. I build
cars that go 0-60 MPH in two seconds. I've been around cars that
go 0-320 MPH in four seconds.

I have yet to see a solid vertical object bury itself into the ground due
to gravity.

 

[roundhead]

Thank you Jaydee sincerely. Even though we don't see eye-to-eye,
I do respect your civil replies.

On that note, I'll just take off and concentrate on FDR threads.

Nicepants: I own a car that goes 0-60 MPH in four seconds. I build
cars that go 0-60 MPH in two seconds. I've been around cars that
go 0-320 MPH in four seconds.

I have yet to see a solid vertical object bury itself into the ground due
to gravity.

\


Hey Turbofan, us gearheads seem to stick together

I have a 3350 pound(with me in it)70 Duster that has been 9.86 in the 1/4, with a ten inch DOT tire and stock suspension.422" smallblock

It will get to 60 in about 1.34 seconds.

 

[uk_dave]

On that note, I'll just take off and concentrate on FDR threads.

Very wise. Though your attempt to present yourself as an expert on the structural failure of the wtc towers and the arrogant manner in which you conducted yourself despite the obvious shortcomings of your knowledge, should be a wake up call to any lurkers who have been taken in by your equally suspect 'expertise' on all matters FDR.

 

[jaydeehess]

Wait a minute...are you telling me you can't order steel in 1000 foot sections!

OH MY GOD? All this time I thought the tooth fairy delivered those columns
in one piece. You mean contsruction crews actually welded and bolted them
together in sections?

Seems to me you were the one referring to 1000 foot columns and questiong where they went. Obviously such a beast never existed. Glad to have you on board with that and acknowledging that the columns were constructed of sections that were welded together.

What caused the interior network of beams to bend if the outer columns
were not bending upon descent?

The perimeter columns were in fact bending for a long time before collapse initiation. This was due to core column creep caused by those columns losing strength to the heat. Those columns that were less affected by heat were sufficient to halt that creep but not sufficient to stop it. The perimeter columns of course also took 50% of the floor loads and the hat truss redistributed load as the building crept downward. But especially in the perimeter lateral support is supplied soley by floor truss connections and floor trusses were failing. This meant that the hat truss in some areas was holding UP the perimeter load above the fire floors and transferring that load to the core. So each time a floor truss failed the load on the core increased and the ability to carry a load at the perimeter was reduced and while this is happening the core is also suffering the effects of heating. At a moment in time just before initial collapse the redistribution of loads could no longer be taken up by remaining structual members and the building started to creep very fast. Now a column that 'creeps' is not simply contracting, it is deforming, mashing down upon itself, and is no longer the nice vertical member it used to be.

By analogy fashion a tube out of playdoh and set it upright. Push down on it and at first it will mash upon itself but eventually it just bends. (analogys break down, I know that let's not now say that jaydeehess says that the tower columns were made of playdoh and be all silly about it)

So when the remaining structural members could no longer support the upper block they bent. The perimeter columns quickly broke away from the connection to the remaining trusses and fell,, which way would they be likely to fall given that they were bending outward at the onset and the fact that there is nothing but clear air on one side,, outward.

Inner columns also bent and snapped. Well if they were bent when they snapped would they be lined up to fall upon the lower part of the very same column? Hardly!

How were they displaced so quickly that they telescoped down so that we
couldn't see them?

Why would you be able to see something occuring 50 feet inside the building? You were expecting that these columns had to lie horizontally?

Did they disconnect and slide over, falling down elevator shafts?

You believe that if a column impacted a floor pan that the floor pan could offer much to stop the column, and the mass above that column, from continuing on its journey downward?

I just don't get it.

I may not have time to read all responses right now but I am sure I cannot be the first to agree with this statement of yours.

 

[Hokulele]

"other columns failed from the heat of the fires"

NIST flatly states that 157 of 160 pieces of Steel they tested reached no more than 500 degrees.

NIST was looking for indentification marks on the steel they tested. The steel recovery had two purposes:

- Properties were correlated with the design requirements of the buildings to determine if the specified steel was in place in the towers.

- Properties were supplied as input for models of building performance.

The steel that reached higher temperatures wasn't identifiable and was not usable for the purposes of the report.

There is zero evidence any impact zone steel MELTED(or failed from the heat of the fires). NONE.

It did not have to melt, and there is plenty of evidence of failure. The images of the perimeter bowing demonstrates this clearly.

Show me where in the NIST report they found melted steel from the impact zone?

They didn't have to find any.

Give me a minute, i better go check all my pots and pans from my Kitchen, some of those have been subjected to 500 degress of heat way longer than an hour.

Just got back, all my pots and pans are fine.

Just for fun, explain the differences between a pot on a stove and structural steel in an office fire. Bonus points awarded for correct math.

 

[jaydeehess]

Thank you Jaydee sincerely. Even though we don't see eye-to-eye,
I do respect your civil replies.

On that note, I'll just take off and concentrate on FDR threads.

Nicepants: I own a car that goes 0-60 MPH in four seconds. I build
cars that go 0-60 MPH in two seconds. I've been around cars that
go 0-320 MPH in four seconds.

I have yet to see a solid vertical object bury itself into the ground due
to gravity.

Please look up impulse and momentum in your fysiks book.

 

[phunk]

This makes absolutely no sense? The structure left standing suddenly
decides to break apart? Laterally unrestrained, so it decides to vertically
impale itself into the ground.

How do you know that it impaled itself in the ground when more than half of its height is hidden in the dust cloud? There is 300 feet of structure that you can't see, that must have collapsed beneath the spire for it to have fallen like it did.

 

[Turbofan]

That's OK Jaydee.

I'm not going to debate you (or others on this topic any further).
See you in the FDR thread where a little less speculation can occur.

R-Head - nice times! If you want to PM me, I'll send you some stuff
about my ride and we can chat it up.

Phunk - There is also what appears to be some form of dust, or oxide
trailing behind the steel as it descends. Too strange to be bolts and
welds popping suddenly.

 

[D'rok]

I have yet to see a solid vertical object bury itself into the ground due
to gravity.

What's really amusing about this is that even if WTC 1 and 2 were CDs, it would still be gravity doing the work of bringing the buildings down. The only "fyziks" difference is that the necessary support structures would be compromised by demo charges instead of planes/fires.

(Of course, a real CD would be planned in such a way to compromise the building in a more controlled fashion than the attacks, but still...)

 

[roundhead]

NIST was looking for indentification marks on the steel they tested. The steel recovery had two purposes:

- Properties were correlated with the design requirements of the buildings to determine if the specified steel was in place in the towers.

- Properties were supplied as input for models of building performance.

The steel that reached higher temperatures weren't identifiable and was not usable for the purposes of the report.




It did not have to melt, and there is plenty of evidence of failure. The images of the perimeter bowing demonstrates this clearly.




They didn't have to find any.




Just for fun, explain the differences between a pot on a stove and structural steel in an office fire. Bonus points awarded for correct math.

The honest answer is, which you avoided, is that the NIST looked dilligently to find ANY steel that reached temps that would weaken it. THEY DIDNT AND COULDNT.

In lieu of the above fact, they again morphed the story to dislodged fireproofing as the culprit.

Because previous lies werent justifiable in relation to OBSERVED TEMPS.

There is a perfect reason why NIST continued to change its story on the collapses.
They dont stand scrutiny, and they are well aware of it.

Thank god we now have a shotgun shot into a box to explain how dislodged fireproofing is the newest culprit.

Just like a common criminal who continually changes his story and whereabouts while being questioned by police, becuase he figures a new lie will finally clear him, so the NIST has went down the same path.
They are unfortunately being asked to stand on an untenable slippery slope, and thus far have found little to no purchase on this slippery slope, which is the "Official lie"...Sucks to be them.


The NIST is exactly this...The poor lawyer being asked to defend for murder a client they are well aware is guilty.

 

[johnny karate]

Hey roundhead, if the NIST report is as transparently erroneous and untrustworthy as you allege, why hasn't this glaringly obvious and monumentally significant information been discerned and/or revealed by a single MSM outlet, law enforcement agency, or investigative body on the entire planet?

 

[uk_dave]

In lieu of the above fact, they again morphed the story to dislodged fireproofing as the culprit.

Yet again a 'truthers' arrogance blinds them to the stupid things they post.

If the steel couldn't be shown to have reached temperatures hot enough to weaken it, what good was claiming the fireproofing was removed? It didn't make the fires any hotter, did it?

Or maybe you just wilfully misunderstand the information you are presented with.

Let's just clarify something here:
The floor trusses were the most vulnerable to fire as their steel sections were the thinnest.
It was the floor trusses which were seen to have pulled inwards the perimeter columns.
It was this lateral load on the perimeter columns which caused the collumn connections to fail.
It was this failure which caused the lower floor assemblies to be overloaded.
It was failure of the lower floor assemblies which caused the perimeter columns to fail and add to the mass of falling material
It was this which caused the progressive collapse
It was this which left the core columns unrestrained but subject to lateral forces from debris and wind.
It was this which caused the core columns to move out of upright and the failure of the connections between the individual beams making up those columns.

 

[nicepants]

Nicepants: I own a car that goes 0-60 MPH in four seconds. I build cars that go 0-60 MPH in two seconds. I've been around cars that go 0-320 MPH in four seconds.

I have yet to see a solid vertical object bury itself into the ground due
to gravity.

Fascinating, but that has nothing to do with the WTC, or the question you asked which was:

-about a steel structure, not a "solid vertical object"

-about the structure telescoping, not "burying itself into the ground"

 

[roundhead]

Yet again a 'truthers' arrogance blinds them to the stupid things they post.

If the steel couldn't be shown to have reached temperatures hot enough to weaken it, what good was claiming the fireproofing was removed? It didn't make the fires any hotter, did it?

Or maybe you just wilfully misunderstand the information you are presented with.

Let's just clarify something here:
The floor trusses were the most vulnerable to fire as their steel sections were the thinnest.
It was the floor trusses which were seen to have pulled inwards the perimeter columns.
It was this lateral load on the perimeter columns which caused the collumn connections to fail.
It was this failure which caused the lower floor assemblies to be overloaded.
It was failure of the lower floor assemblies which caused the perimeter columns to fail and add to the mass of falling material
It was this which caused the progressive collapse
It was this which left the core columns unrestrained but subject to lateral forces from debris and wind.
It was this which caused the core columns to move out of upright and the failure of the connections between the individual beams making up those columns.

Pretty funny.I like how you deal with the core columns."Move out of upright"

 

[nicepants]

Painted himself into a corner, I guess

I'm not going to debate you (or others on this topic any further).

At least he knows that he's in over his head.

Too bad...I was really looking forward to his explanation of his simultaneous use of different meanings of the word "squib".

 

[Hokulele]

The honest answer is, which you avoided, is that the NIST looked dilligently to find ANY steel that reached temps that would weaken it. THEY DIDNT AND COULDNT.

No, you missed the point. NIST was looking for identifiable steel. Don't forget, much of the damage to the steel recovered was determined to be the result of the collapse, not necessarily the conditions before collapse. NIST cataloged the steel that showed evidence of several different types of damage, but with no way to tell exactly where the steel was located, it is impossible to determine the exact cause of the damage.

Since there was plenty of other evidence for the fire temperatures, steel showing the effects of those temperatures would have been redundant.

It would be like investigating a car accident, determining the brakes failed, and then saying "Aha! Since you didn't check the status of the rear brake lights, there has to be another explanation."

In lieu of the above fact, they again morphed the story to dislodged fireproofing as the culprit.

Because previous lies werent justifiable in relation to OBSERVED TEMPS.

What lies?

There is a perfect reason why NIST continued to change its story on the collapses.

Sure, additional evidence is always a good reason to change a theory.

They dont stand scrutiny, and they are well aware of it.

Thank god we now have a shotgun shot into a box to explain how dislodged fireproofing is the newest culprit.

Just like a common criminal who continually changes his story and whereabouts while being questioned by police, becuase he figures a new lie will finally clear him, so the NIST has went down the same path.
They are unfortunately being asked to stand on an untenable slippery slope, and thus far have found little to no purchase on this slippery slope, which is the "Official lie"...Sucks to be them.


The NIST is exactly this...The poor lawyer being asked to defend for murder a client they are well aware is guilty.

Since when did the NIST report become a criminal investigation?

As a source of recommendations for improvements in building codes, it only makes sense to investigate possible contributing causes to the collapse in order to update building codes to avoid such failures in the future. In most cases, NIST is tasked to make such recommendations based on any available evidence. They are not tasked to prove beyond all doubt what exactly happened (that is the job of a criminal investigation), but to determine plausible and testable theories that can improve building practices.

And before this gets dragged out again, I do not think the NIST report is perfect in any sense. There are a couple of their code change recommendations I do not agree with, and there have been plenty of other papers and tests done that disagree with some of NIST's findings. However, that does not suggest in any way that they "FAILED" at the task to which they were set.

It is the truth movement that fails to understand the nature of the report, not the report that fails to meet its mission.

 

[Corsair 115]

Too bad...I was really looking forward to his explanation of his simultaneous use of different meanings of the word "squib".

Yes, it would have been doublethink brought to life.

 

[Mancman]

Come on?!

The one I pointed out at 16 seconds into the video.

Are you telling me you can't see it?

What's your explanation of this? How does it drive itself straight down
by gravity?

Are you guys going to wake up, and realize the mess your government
is pushing on you?

The answer is it doesn't drive itself straight down. It actually fell towards the south.

See here:

Awww.....you were having so much fun as well.

 

[Turbofan]

The answer is it doesn't drive itself straight down. It actually fell towards the south.

See here:
[qimg]http://i35.tinypic.com/11hz3vp.gif[/qimg]

Awww.....you were having so much fun as well.

Oh wow, a whole 5 degree tilt to the south!

I was having fun, now I'm having much more fun! You just contradicted
everyone else who said it broke and fell straight down!

Love it.