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Is the story of Judas completely absurd?

Blue_Sargasso

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Think about it – the way Judas betrayed Jesus was to kiss him to identify him. What no one has ever asked is why if Jesus was such a threat, such a big deal, such a prominent person, such a charismatic man with the aura (literally!) of God himself, it was necessary for someone to have to point him out. The whole thing’s preposterous, isn’t it? It doesn’t make any sense. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey through a chosen gate, as was prophesied for the Messiah, and was greeted by thousand of ecstatic people waving palms – yet we’re supposed to believe that no one in authority could recognise him, and Judas had to do the dirty work for them. But we all know the authorities had spies and secret police everywhere. They would never have needed Judas. Even if, impossibly, they couldn’t recognise Jesus, they would simply have arrested everyone that they found in the Garden of Gethsemane and sorted it out later. The truth is that Judas didn’t do anything wrong. He was just there to help the story along.

The whole Judas thing was just invented by ye olde thriller writer. But it's ludicrous on every level. If someone rode into your town today, on a donkey, calling himself the Messiah and being greeted by thousands, don't you think he'd be the most conspicuous guy in town?
 
Not if he had a loyal entourage who could be assumed to try to cover for him, perhaps even to the point of claiming to be him. It's not like they had a photo.
 
Not if he had a loyal entourage who could be assumed to try to cover for him, perhaps even to the point of claiming to be him. It's not like they had a photo.

"I'm Jesus!"

(Except, according to the story, the disciples were a bunch of woosies who took off running.)
 
Think about it – the way Judas betrayed Jesus was to kiss him to identify him. What no one has ever asked is why if Jesus was such a threat, such a big deal, such a prominent person, such a charismatic man with the aura (literally!) of God himself, it was necessary for someone to have to point him out. The whole thing’s preposterous, isn’t it? It doesn’t make any sense. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey through a chosen gate, as was prophesied for the Messiah, and was greeted by thousand of ecstatic people waving palms – yet we’re supposed to believe that no one in authority could recognise him, and Judas had to do the dirty work for them. But we all know the authorities had spies and secret police everywhere. They would never have needed Judas. Even if, impossibly, they couldn’t recognise Jesus, they would simply have arrested everyone that they found in the Garden of Gethsemane and sorted it out later. The truth is that Judas didn’t do anything wrong. He was just there to help the story along.

The whole Judas thing was just invented by ye olde thriller writer. But it's ludicrous on every level. If someone rode into your town today, on a donkey, calling himself the Messiah and being greeted by thousands, don't you think he'd be the most conspicuous guy in town?

I really don't want to spoil the creation of an obviously intended heckling jeckling opportunity but since you seem to be requesting opinions and do not restrict participation to atheists or anti biblicists, I will dare to venture to and participate. Hope you don't mind.

First, it doesn't make sense because you are totally ignoring all possibilities in order to reach an intended conclusion. There is absolutely NOTHING impossible about what happened in the garden of Getsemane on that night. Here are the reasons:


First, It was night and in the darkness things aren't so easily as identifiable as in plain daylight. Have you ever been in front of a group of people in the darkness or dim light. They tend to blur into one another-especially when emotions are high due to expected conflict.

Also, since we know NOTHING about the physical appearance of Jesus and his apostles,or even about the way each one dressed, it is quite within the possible that similarity in attire added to the difficulty in identification. Add to this problem that all of them were bearded, perhaps and most likely of the same skin tone and perhaps even of similar heights and weight. These are things that were all very possible in that darkness and which might have made the necessity of a Judas kiss for identification purposes necessary.


As for simply arresting everyone, don't you know that there were legal procedures to be dealt with in those days and that the Jews were bound to follow those legal procedures and had to explain themselves to the Romans? Furthermore, why add to the burden and arrest the whole group when the target was Jesus? It was Jesus who was considered the fomenter of discord, the nucleus around which the existence of their nation either dissolve or
continued. The rest were deemed simply as followers who would disband as soon as their leader was removed. Also, Jesus was expected to try to flee which made imediate identification crucial. He was not expected to step forward and identify himself. But that probably doesn't seem possible to you either I dare venture to surmise.

BTW

What's really ludicrous at every conceivable level is your anxious expectation that I place my finely-honed critical-thinking abilities on hold in order to mimick an ill-founded mindless incredulity.
 
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"I'm Jesus!"

(Except, according to the story, the disciples were a bunch of woosies who took off running.)
But one could hardly be expected to know that would be their reaction beforehand. Plus, one of them did assault a guard before becoming all chicken****.
 
I think this really picks out the one weak point in the New Testament.

I think most people can accept raising people from the dead, turning water into wine, curing lepers and so on, as something that might very well happen. But the police using an informant to identify someone - that's a step too far.
 
Judas's sacrifice was quite amazing. Evidently, he had no choice, as it was all known previously, by the lord, as if it was a part in a play. That Judas was so ill affected by it as to take his own life, makes me wonder whose sins he died for?
 
Judas's sacrifice was quite amazing. Evidently, he had no choice, as it was all known previously, by the lord, as if it was a part in a play. That Judas was so ill affected by it as to take his own life, makes me wonder whose sins he died for?

I don't see the logic here. Care to explain?
 
I think this really picks out the one weak point in the New Testament.

I think most people can accept raising people from the dead, turning water into wine, curing lepers and so on, as something that might very well happen. But the police using an informant to identify someone - that's a step too far.

Most people during most of human history would have found your present claim of flying from NY to California in approx three hours unacceptable due to its perceived impossibility. Probably would have considered you a crass liar.
 
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Look into the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination.

I am familiar with the subject of predestination as it refers to Judas. I don't agreee that we can say that he is excempt from redemption-however. That's the part I wanted an explanation in terms of its logical or perhaps-[Do I dare venture to suggest?] scriptural justification.

BTW

Foresight does not necessarily involve programing of the foreseen to happen.
 
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Most people during most of human history would have found your present claim of flying from NY to California in approx three hours unacceptable due to its perceived impossibility. Probably would have considered you a crass liar.
There are different kinds of impossibility - even without the technology the idea of traveling through the air at high speed is not in fact impossible. The other kind of impossibility are things that are impossible in principle because they defy natural law. These two kinds of impossibility are quite distinct. There is nothing about flying across the country in three hours that defies nature. "Miracles" by definition specifically do.
 
I am familiar with the subject of predestination as it refers to Judas. I don't agreee that we can say that he is excempt from redemption-hoiwever. That's the part I wanted an explanation in terms of its logical or perhaps-[Do I dare venture to suggest?] scriptural justification.

I think you may have misunderstood the post you quoited, the second sentence (to me) is only referring to Judas.
 
There are different kinds of impossibility - even without the technology the idea of traveling through the air at high speed is not in fact impossible. The other kind of impossibility are things that are impossible in principle because they defy natural law. These two kinds of impossibility are quite distinct. There is nothing about flying across the country in three hours that defies nature. "Miracles" by definition specifically do.


I was referring to how things were perceived during the major part of human history not their
inherent possibility or impossibility. If IU had claimed to have travelled from Europe to The New World in several hours, I would have been considered insane during Columbus's day.
Why? Because it was considered impossible.

BTW

Speaking to another person in another country while walking down a street is perhaps a better example. Or are you saying that such marvels of today were viewed as possible because the ancients considered them natural? Patently some things we do today would be considered magic instead of science.
 
Sorry you've lost me.

The person commented that he does not know how salvation relates to Judas because Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. I asked him to explain how predestination of Judas would prevent him from benefiting from the redemptive power of Jesus' sacrifice. You see, the accusation that Judas was predestined would imply that Judas had no choice. By extension, it seems that this deprivation of free will would justify his eternal damnation.
Which of course goes completely contrary to justice. It's a matter of culpability. If we program an android to behave in a certain manner. Then it's not responsible for its behavior. Which means that the machine is innocent of any wrong and cannot be viewed as punishable. If indeed Judas was programmed in that way, then I see no reason to deprive him of a chance at redemption as was implied by the poster.
 
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The entire Bibble is completely absurd... it is unfair for you to single out a single ridiculous portion of an entirely ridiculous collection of poorly-crafted myths.
 
Well, back to the mindless, droning of heclking jeckling as per intended by the thread. Bye yall!
 
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey through a chosen gate, as was prophesied for the Messiah

Two donkeys, because whoever was making up that part of the New Testament didn't understand the Old Testament reference, which was just poetically re-iterating itself when it said something like "the messiah will arrive on an ass and the son of an ass."


Item #12768 in our list of contradictions that are half-assedly, so to speak, explained away by apologists.
 
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