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Is the story of Judas completely absurd?

The story probably had more to do with the relationships and internal conflicts of the characters themselves, than an actual legal process. One interpretation I've read about is that Judas was the reluctant anti-hero of the story, in that Jesus specifically asked him to "betray" him as it were. This is certainly consistent with a Jesus who knew precisely what was going to happen to him and was accepting of his fate. Only a friend who was truly close to Jesus would ever be asked to shoulder such a burden. If the sacrifice of Jesus was as meaningful as many Christians believe, then what Judas did was not only the right thing to do, it was necessary. If you're going to label Judas an evil backstabber, then you also need to label God a cold blooded murderer.

On the other hand, perhaps Jesus just liked being kissed by other men. It's already suspect enough that Mark was undressed under his robes and fled away naked when they got ripped off.

Stop killing Judas!


I love that sketch. :D
 
Originally Posted by quarky
Judas's sacrifice was quite amazing. Evidently, he had no choice, as it was all known previously, by the lord, as if it was a part in a play. That Judas was so ill affected by it as to take his own life, makes me wonder whose sins he died for?


He had no choice because God foresaw that was the choice he would make? The only ones described as forcing people to make evil decisions are demons.
 
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They just wanted to make sure they weren't arresting Brian by mistake...

I must admit I think the point people make about predestination and lack of free will is really weak. They way I see it, it is just like me knowing for a fact how my 5 year old son will react in a certain situation. The fact that I know him so well that I can predict his behaviour in certain circumstances doesn't mean he has no free will in those circumstances.
 
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The whole Judas thing was just invented by ye olde thriller writer.
I agree.

But it's ludicrous on every level.
I disagree. It is, in my opinion, a far better narrative that the story of Samson, which is pretty ludicrous. Especially the versions of the story in which Judas is the only one who really understands Jesus' mission, and performs the "betrayal" reluctantly, having been begged by Jesus to do so.

If someone rode into your town today, on a donkey, calling himself the Messiah and being greeted by thousands, don't you think he'd be the most conspicuous guy in town?
Maybe if it had been broadcast on Roman TV.
 
Most people during most of human history would have found your present claim of flying from NY to California in approx three hours unacceptable due to its perceived impossibility. Probably would have considered you a crass liar.
Most people would still consider such a claim unacceptable ( flying from NY to California in approx three hours ) .....

Not because of its perceived impossibility, but because of limited access to an adequate vehicle..
 
It WAS impossible. If you had claimed to do that at that time then you would have been lying. If you said "Maybe one day we will be able to..." then people would not have been able to say it would never happen.

But would have said it anyway and are even recorded as having had that impossibility mindset.

That's the point - we know what is possible now, and we know what was possible in the past, we don't know what might be possible in the future.


You THINK you know what was Humanly possible in the past and what is humanly possible in the present as well as what is humanly possible in the future based on what you think you know about human abilities and potential. However, you don't know what is non-humanlypossible in the whole realm of existence as you seem you be presumptuously assuming in reference to nonhuman creatures. Before you reflexively
eschew this as utterly-ridiculous religiously-motivated nonsense, I suggest you review all the literature which discusses the possible non-human civilizations that might just exist out there,. Ever read any of that?

Actually, enthusiastic conjecturing in relation to such probable alien creatures runs rampant in scientific circles. What such creatures might be able to do might have done or will be capable of doing is a very popular subject among cosmologists. They all glibly and readily admit that those hypothetically possible alien accomplishments might be presently viewed as forever beyond human achievement. Of course that's the prevailing mindset until the being or creature is suggested to be God. Then hysteria sets in, minds are spasmodically closed, previously enthusiastic speculation grinds to a screeching halt, and things suddenly become morosely impossible.

Which of course is very unconvincing logic due to the obvious hypocritical contradictions which strongly indicate atheistically-convenient bias.

That's why we know the stories of Jesus are just stories (well one of the reasons).
Unless of course anyone can demonstrate any of his miracles today...

In view if the above, I'm exceedingly afraid to say, it becomes painfully clear that you know essentially can prove NOTHING in thing in relation to those accounts except that you disagree. Unless of course you can offer conclusive proof that such miracles weren't the product of a possible alien technology?

Can you guarantee that with 100% certainty? Or can you discount the existence of a being somewhere in the realm of existence, a realm where you occupy a microscopic part and to vast regions beyond human perceptuual access is blocked due to neuroligical ummmm-limitations, who just might be able to pull that off?

Then as psycholigically nauseating as that might be-I guess you'll simply have to say "I don't know!"

BTW

Just because something isn't happening now doesn't mean it did not occur in the past. That's a false premise.
 
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And God would not foresee this as well ?

Foresee what as well?

Besides, wasn't God hardening Pharaoh's heart, forcing him to make a decision?

First, scripture is never understood in isolation. It is understood within context. What is the context? All scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. One scripture will shed light on another and prevent misunderstanding of meaning or intent. In this case, it's known from biblical context that God does NOT possess human beings in the manner that Satan and his demons do. It's also known from context that God is described as moving or encouraging people to do what's righteous via his holy spirit. It's also known that the one moving humans to do evil is Satan. So context indicates one interpretation. That God allowed Pharaoh to continue in his rebellious course, and in that manner hardened Pharaoh's heart. Not because he took possession of pharaoh's mind. Simply as a consequence of not destroying him immediately, but allowing him to plow forward rebelliously so that he could serve as an example.

BTW

This is where the heckling and jeckling can be expected to come in.
 
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You THINK you know what was Humanly possible in the past and . . . [snip]

Just because something isn't happening now doesn't mean it did not occur in the past. That's a false premise.

Who cares? This has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. I see where the derail occurred, but seriously folks, we’re not talking about Jesus walking on water. We’re questioning Judas’ need to kiss Jesus as a means of identification to the temple guards.

Even more specifically, the OP stated that this story was “ludicrous on every level”.

It’s not ludicrous or absurd. Whether actual, eye-witness story, or “ye olde thriller writer” it’s completely within the realm of plausibility.

You want implausible, how about a world wide flood? Turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at the mass destruction of her home city.

Judas’ kiss is at least historically accurate as a greeting to a teacher.
 
You THINK you know what was Humanly possible in the past and what is humanly possible in the present as well as what is humanly possible in the future based on what you think you know about human abilities and potential. However, you don't know what is non-humanlypossible in the whole realm of existence as you seem you be presumptuously assuming in reference to nonhuman creatures. Before you reflexively
eschew this as utterly-ridiculous religiously-motivated nonsense, I suggest you review all the literature which discusses the possible non-human civilizations that might just exist out there,. Ever read any of that?
This is some of the most eloquent and skillfully executed sarcasm I've read in a long time. :rolleyes:

Actually, enthusiastic conjecturing in relation to such probable alien creatures runs rampant in scientific circles. What such creatures might be able to do might have done or will be capable of doing is a very popular subject among cosmologists. They all glibly and readily admit that those hypothetically possible alien accomplishments might be presently viewed as forever beyond human achievement.
Because speculation about what aliens are capable of, such as landings at Roswell or butt-probing of hillbilly abduction victims, is a common subject of discourse among rational scientifically educated people. I might add that this has everything to do with human powered flight capabilities in centuries past.
Of course that's the prevailing mindset until the being or creature is suggested to be God. Then hysteria sets in, minds are spasmodically closed, previously enthusiastic speculation grinds to a screeching halt, and things suddenly become morosely impossible.

Which of course is very unconvincing logic due to the obvious hypocritical contradictions which strongly indicate atheistically-convenient bias.
Tell that to the Raelians. All they did was suggest that your intelligent designer was really aliens. That's when hysteria sets in, minds are spasmodically closed, previously enthusiastic speculation grinds to a screeching halt, and things suddenly become morosely impossible. Which of course is very unconvincing logic due to the obvious hypocritical contradictions which strongly indicate theistically-convenient bias.
In view if the above, I'm exceedingly afraid to say, it becomes painfully clear that you know essentially can prove NOTHING in thing in relation to those accounts except that you disagree. Unless of course you can offer conclusive proof that such miracles weren't the product of a possible alien technology?
Well obviously it was an alien tractor beam that caused Elijah to ascend to the heavens. That or he was dumped into the sea naked after having his clothes stripped off by a whirlwind, so the author of 1 Kings had to fabricate a story to cover up the humiliation.
Can you guarantee that with 100% certainty? Or can you discount the existence of a being somewhere in the realm of existence, a realm where you occupy a microscopic part and to vast regions beyond human perceptuual access is blocked due to neuroligical ummmm-limitations, who just might be able to pull that off?
Argument from ignorance fallacy.
Just because something isn't happening now doesn't mean it did not occur in the past. That's a false premise.
Wow, that question begging, burden of proof-shifting, red herring of a statement nailed it right on the head.

First, scripture is never understood in isolation. It is understood within context. What is the context? All scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. One scripture will shed light on another and prevent misunderstanding of meaning or intent.
Right, scripture written by different authors, living in different places, at different times, with different points of view, trying to push different political agendas. We can safely ignore other Jewish writings such as the Midrashes, Talmud, or books that were excluded from the final cut of the bible, because those obviously contain heresy that would undermine the hamster wheel of using the bible to prove the bible is true.
In this case, it's known from biblical context that God does NOT possess human beings in the manner that Satan and his demons do. It's also known from context that God is described as moving or encouraging people to do what's righteous via his holy spirit. It's also known that the one moving humans to do evil is Satan. So context indicates one interpretation.
"Context" also indicates that God created Satan and his demons, and that Satan is still very much a servant on God's payroll as far as the book of Job. But we can't blame God because Satan had free will, right?
That God allowed Pharaoh to continue in his rebellious course, and in that manner hardened Pharaoh's heart. Not because he took possession of pharaoh's mind. Simply as a consequence of not destroying him immediately, but allowing him to plow forward rebelliously so that he could serve as an example.
It's funny that one could read an interpretation of mercy out of a story that was hell bent on advertising God's swift and brutal justice. Never mind that failing to destroy someone right away hardly qualifies as mercy.
 
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This thread is odd. I've always found the Judas myth to be one of the most powerful and compelling myths in the Bible.
 
Oh I seee. You think maybe Jesus was an alien and he did all his tricks with alien technology.

Jolly good.

He's gone right off the deep end now...

Oh! OK! Another one who can't or feigns not to understand simple English in order to heckle. No problem. The more the merrier!


Next!

BTW
The ones who are raising that possibility are not the religionists but the cosmologists with their speculations about there being millions of possible alien civilizations prior to life getting started on earth. A response I would have gladly provided if the personal attacks via accusations of insanity would not have been resorted to. Please keep in mind that this is the same type of individual who would listen entranced hours on end if a cosmologist would begin waxing melodic about all these possible civilization which he has calculated based on the Drake Equation. But bring a religious connection and the euphoria disappears. Curious phenomenon!
 
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This thread is odd. I've always found the Judas myth to be one of the most powerful and compelling myths in the Bible.

It is. It's rather poetic too.

I think the concern from the OP is misplaced in regards to the Judas Kiss story. It's really Jesus' reported fame and recognizability that are in question.
 
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God pretty much sucks, O.K.?

can't we get past that, and sue God for being a jerk?


(no...i didn't think so. No more than we can impeach the president.)

gosh, I'm so dissapointed in us. We suck, people. Its time to get balls, or die.
 
This thread is odd. I've always found the Judas myth to be one of the most powerful and compelling myths in the Bible.

You can chant "myth!" until your tonsiles dangle daintily from their gimbles but that won't prove nor magically make it so. You need something more substantial than a catchy slogan. Perhaps a self gratifying godless jingle in a 3/4 tempo?
 
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Oh! OK! Another one who can't or feigns not to understand simple English in order to heckle. No problem. The more the merrier!


Next!
Wow, even more hypocritical condescension immediately following a lengthy rant demanding that other members cease with the insults and condescension. Strawmen and poorly executed sarcasm do not make your post a sacred cow, nor was the point you were trying to make particularly clever. I would also expect that anyone who criticizes others for not understanding English would demonstrate impeccable spelling and grammar in all posts, while not making the mistake of assuming that using a thesaurus to fill in words makes their statements seem more intelligent than they really are.

BTW
The ones who are raising that possibility are not the religionists but the cosmologists with their speculations about there being millions of possible alien civilizations prior to life getting started on earth. A response I would have gladly provided if the personal attacks via accusations of insanity would not have been resorted to. Please keep in mind that this is the same type of individual who would listen entranced hours on end if a cosmologist would begin waxing melodic about all these possible civilization which he has calculated based on the Drake Equation. But bring a religious connection and the euphoria disappears. Curious phenomenon!
Maybe it has to do with the fact that there's a huge leap of logic between speculating about the existence of alien civilizations, and claiming that such things as deities exist. It's an even further leap to conflate them with the Judeo-Christian God Jehovah. I don't see millions of people worshiping these hypothetical aliens, basing their morals, worldview, and everyday lives off of them, or killing each other in the name of aliens. There's a big difference between talking about alien lifeforms, which would be like any other lifeforms in the sense that they could be studied scientifically (assuming they existed) and talking about supernatural beings.

Oh, and wouldn't it be convenient if those supernatural beings just happened to conform to the description of God as described in Hebrew mythology? Let's just assume they're the same and save the trouble of thinking! :rolleyes:
 
BTW

It seems that many here have a wrong concept of what it means to be skeptical. They feel as if being skeptical means being non-religious and automatic rejection of all that even hints of ID. That's not true. In fact, being skeptical simply means that we don't accept things at face-value but demand proof. Now, that proof can either be scientific or logical. I for example might be very skeptical concerning certain popular beliefs because they are essentially illogical. For example, a mere human claiming to know all that existence contains is illogical since no human can claim that with any certainty. If indeed he does, then that person is setting aside his skepticism and reserving it only for areas he deems convenient. This of course goes completely contrary to the tenets of skepticism regardless of how justified the individual feels in using that dubious approach. Unfortunately, among the club of the IRRATIONALS where mutual admiration is pervasive and demanded, that individual might be lauded as the epitome of rational thought. For what it's worth. Which I'm afraid to say, but venture to say anyway with great trepidation, is very little.
 
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Well, I never really thought of "tenets of skepticism" before. I doubt there is an official list but here's one for starters

http://www.theinformationparadox.com/2008/06/10-tenets-of-my-skepticism.html

The reasoning in your post sounds like the Christian's challenge to the atheists' "tenets", of which there are none.
I can understand possibly being religious sort of, and being a skeptic, but ID? Impossible. Does religion survive these 10 tenets?

How do I join the club of IRRATIONALS, where mutual admiration is pervasive? I certainly don't see much of that here.
 
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For example, a mere human claiming to know all that existence contains is illogical since no human can claim that with any certainty. If indeed he does, then that person is setting aside his skepticism and reserving it only for areas he deems convenient. This of course goes completely contrary to the tenets of skepticism regardless of how justified the individual feels in using that dubious approach. Unfortunately, among the club of the IRRATIONALS where mutual admiration is pervasive and demanded, that individual might be lauded as the epitome of rational thought. For what it's worth. Which I'm afraid to say, but venture to say anyway with great trepidation, is very little.
That's great. Perhaps you'd like to provide examples of where anyone has ever claimed to know all that existence contains?

Oh wait, you were implying that one needs to know all that existence contains in order to conclude that there isn't enough evidence to believe in God, right? Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort said the same thing right after the banana argument, and we know how compelling that was. Wrong, it's shifting the burden of proof. One only needs to be concerned with the human realm in order to reach said conclusion when it comes to the definition of God as a personal god concerned with human affairs. Besides, if belief in God is based on personal faith, then why the concern with proof?

That's why we know the stories of Jesus are just stories (well one of the reasons).
Unless of course anyone can demonstrate any of his miracles today...
I don't know about turning water into wine, but I know some of his followers have demonstrated the ability to turn discussions into whine.
 

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