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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

I'd just like to be clear about something.

I've severely lost my patience for repeating myself which is all I've ever done with arguing with uneducated truthers. Specifically, in regards to Turbofan, he's ignorance is so unbelievable that he disagrees with obvious and simple things such as the existence of a digital buffer in the FDR. He hasn't read the original post, let alone comprehended it. He has absolutely no idea what the obvious flaws in his and PfT "research" is despite me having it spelled it out no less then a dozen times throughout this thread.

If the goal was to keep repeating the same tired flawed logic until I stop responding, then mission accomplished. Now he's moved on clearly into the "declaring" victory phase of his sad presentation by mentioning things such as "schooling" me or whatever other childish remarks he's made of that ilk. I'm not really interested in arguing with someone so entirely uninterested in the truth as to revel in that type of absurd ignorance. He is the epitome of the famous research finding that the more incompetent and ignorant someone is, the more arrogant and confident they are in their expertise.

They continue to quote things that are simply inapplicable to what they are trying to prove. His last attempt was the ARINC standard which does govern a tiny fraction of the possible time slip error. It governs a small aspect of the time-slip, not the entire thing. They are too ignorant to realize it and instead just keep searching for regulations that quote times and they keep pretending those times apply to the things they want. ARINC, ED55, etc, etc, do not govern the "amount of time event X that was measured on the last line of my data file and impact". They cannot even correctly understand what these regulations are telling them. They just see a number and pretend that number is what they want it to mean. For god's sake, Turbofan et al. are trying to quote a provably impossible number of 500ms as the magic number. The fact that that number is mathematically impossible never occured to them. The problem isn't the standard. Or the design. Or the systems. Or the real number system. It's their understanding of what the 500ms actually means.

I've "outgrown" my desire to repeat myself over and over and over to people who are willfully ignorant because their ignorance serves their own purposes. I have two choices, argue forever with someone who isn't interested in the truth, or give up and let them declare victory. I've chosen the latter.

I read the forum alot but my participation was waning heavily before he showed up, and I briefly jumped back in only to be reminded how pointless it all is.
 
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Thanks for all your input nonetheless Anti-sophist. It certainly can be frustrating.

We all await the technical paper ( on white or any other colour of paper ) that PfT should now produce illustrating their contention that the DFDR data does not match the physical evidence of the path of Flight 77. I am quite sure that such a finding would be of great interest to ICAO, the FAA, the NTSB and every commercial pilot's union on the planet.
 
I'd just like to be clear about something.

I've severely lost my patience for repeating myself which is all I've ever done with arguing with uneducated truthers. Specifically, in regards to Turbofan, he's ignorance is so unbelievable that he disagrees with obvious and simple things such as the existence of a digital buffer in the FDR. He hasn't read the original post, let alone comprehended it. He has absolutely no idea what the obvious flaws in his and PfT "research" is despite me having it spelled it out no less then a dozen times throughout this thread.

If the goal was to keep repeating the same tired flawed logic until I stop responding, then mission accomplished. Now he's moved on clearly into the "declaring" victory phase of his sad presentation by mentioning things such as "schooling" me or whatever other childish remarks he's made of that ilk. I'm not really interested in arguing with someone so entirely uninterested in the truth as to revel in that type of absurd ignorance. He is the epitome of the famous research finding that the more incompetent and ignorant someone is, the more arrogant and confident they are in their expertise.

They continue to quote things that are simply inapplicable to what they are trying to prove. His last attempt was the ARINC standard which does govern a tiny fraction of the possible time slip error. It governs a small aspect of the time-slip, not the entire thing. They are too ignorant to realize it and instead just keep searching for regulations that quote times and they keep pretending those times apply to the things they want. ARINC, ED55, etc, etc, do not govern the "amount of time event X that was measured on the last line of my data file and impact". They cannot even correctly understand what these regulations are telling them. They just see a number and pretend that number is what they want it to mean. For god's sake, Turbofan et al. are trying to quote a provably impossible number of 500ms as the magic number. The fact that that number is mathematically impossible never occured to them. The problem isn't the standard. Or the design. Or the systems. Or the real number system. It's their understanding of what the 500ms actually means.

I've "outgrown" my desire to repeat myself over and over and over to people who are willfully ignorant because their ignorance serves their own purposes. I have two choices, argue forever with someone who isn't interested in the truth, or give up and let them declare victory. I've chosen the latter.

I read the forum alot but my participation was waning heavily before he showed up, and I briefly jumped back in only to be reminded how pointless it all is.


I'd love to interview you on 'Hardfire' without the distraction of a conspiracy liar shouting nonsense. If you're interested in doing a one-on-one, let me know.
 
I'd love to interview you on 'Hardfire' without the distraction of a conspiracy liar shouting nonsense. If you're interested in doing a one-on-one, let me know.

That would make a terrific show.

(I would suggest that you PM Anti-sophist, though, since he doesn't post very frequently these days - for the good reasons that he has enumerated above.)
 
I've "outgrown" my desire to repeat myself over and over and over to people who are willfully ignorant because their ignorance serves their own purposes. I have two choices, argue forever with someone who isn't interested in the truth, or give up and let them declare victory. I've chosen the latter.

It's kind of like playing a game with a young child who doesn't understand the rules. They just do whatever they want and declare "I Won!". Though we (and the rest of the world) know that this isn't the case, we can let them think they have a victory instead of trying to explain the rules and why they lost.

PFT is a joke, they can think what they want, but until they learn to play by the rules, no one is going to take them seriously.
 
I'd love to interview you on 'Hardfire' without the distraction of a conspiracy liar shouting nonsense. If you're interested in doing a one-on-one, let me know.

I'd be interested in watching that on the net when/if it becomes a reality. I follow A.S.'s OP's in this thread but would benefit from a verbal tutorial on it as well.
 
I'd just like to be clear about something.

I've severely lost my patience for repeating myself which is all I've ever done with arguing with uneducated truthers. Specifically, in regards to Turbofan, he's ignorance is so unbelievable that he disagrees with obvious and simple things such as the existence of a digital buffer in the FDR. He hasn't read the original post, let alone comprehended it. He has absolutely no idea what the obvious flaws in his and PfT "research" is despite me having it spelled it out no less then a dozen times throughout this thread.

If the goal was to keep repeating the same tired flawed logic until I stop responding, then mission accomplished. Now he's moved on clearly into the "declaring" victory phase of his sad presentation by mentioning things such as "schooling" me or whatever other childish remarks he's made of that ilk. I'm not really interested in arguing with someone so entirely uninterested in the truth as to revel in that type of absurd ignorance. He is the epitome of the famous research finding that the more incompetent and ignorant someone is, the more arrogant and confident they are in their expertise.

They continue to quote things that are simply inapplicable to what they are trying to prove. His last attempt was the ARINC standard which does govern a tiny fraction of the possible time slip error. It governs a small aspect of the time-slip, not the entire thing. They are too ignorant to realize it and instead just keep searching for regulations that quote times and they keep pretending those times apply to the things they want. ARINC, ED55, etc, etc, do not govern the "amount of time event X that was measured on the last line of my data file and impact". They cannot even correctly understand what these regulations are telling them. They just see a number and pretend that number is what they want it to mean. For god's sake, Turbofan et al. are trying to quote a provably impossible number of 500ms as the magic number. The fact that that number is mathematically impossible never occured to them. The problem isn't the standard. Or the design. Or the systems. Or the real number system. It's their understanding of what the 500ms actually means.

I've "outgrown" my desire to repeat myself over and over and over to people who are willfully ignorant because their ignorance serves their own purposes. I have two choices, argue forever with someone who isn't interested in the truth, or give up and let them declare victory. I've chosen the latter.

I read the forum alot but my participation was waning heavily before he showed up, and I briefly jumped back in only to be reminded how pointless it all is.


YOu are so uneducated about this topic, you don't even know that you have
it all backwards.

Not only have I explained that the buffer can't hold old information, I have
also stated that the sensor data is read out with time information!

The timing for this system refreshes the sensor input on EVERY cycle!

Here is some of that timing you keep barking about. Right here in black
and white. Notice it's measured in micro and nano seconds!

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_bit_timing.jpg

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_bit_timing2.jpg

Here is the ARINC format and serial data format:

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_ARINC.JPG

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_word_format.jpg


Study up and learn a thing of two. If you want to know more,
you know where to find me.
 
YOu are so uneducated about this topic, you don't even know that you have
it all backwards.

Not only have I explained that the buffer can't hold old information, I have
also stated that the sensor data is read out with time information!

The timing for this system refreshes the sensor input on EVERY cycle!

Here is some of that timing you keep barking about. Right here in black
and white. Notice it's measured in micro and nano seconds!

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_bit_timing.jpg

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_bit_timing2.jpg

Here is the ARINC format and serial data format:

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_ARINC.JPG

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_word_format.jpg


Study up and learn a thing of two. If you want to know more,
you know where to find me.

Tino;

you are comparing apples to oranges, stick with cars. You are out of your specialty with aircraft.
 
Study up and learn a thing of two. If you want to know more,
you know where to find me.


Sure, Turbofan. I'd love to learn a thing or two from you. Let's start with this diagram:

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_ARINC.JPG


Here are my questions:

1. Words 2 and 3 in the Message Record can, according to the diagram, be either an ARINC word or a List Buffer Pointer. What determines which it is, in any given Message Record? Under what conditions would it end up as a List Buffer Pointer instead of an ARINC word?

2. If data is recorded at precise regular intervals, why is a Time-tag necessary? Shouldn't it be sufficient to record an initial time stamp with an update everyone once in a while (say, every 10 minutes) to avoid drift, and decode the rest of the times by calculating based on the position of the data in the recording? For instance, if I know data is being recorded once per second, can't I tell (without all those time tags) that the 223rd sample recorded after the last time stamp represents conditions 223 seconds after the time stamp?

3. Under what conditions would a Hit Counter be recorded instead of a Time-tag in words 4 and 5?

4. Up to six words of time related data can be stored. Why is this ever necessary if the data coming from the buffer is always current, never old? Under what conditions must a Min and Max Elapsed Time be stored in words 6-9, instead of the alternative of a single Elapse Time in words 6-7?

5. What do the bit codes in the Least Significant Bits portion of the Activity Word (ASPD, ERR, GAP, PAR, LONG, BIT, TO, HIT) mean?

6. What information can you derive from this diagram concerning the timing of data collection and the maximum latency of data in the buffer? That is, what does this diagram signify with regard to your argument?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Anti-Sophist:

You should not even bother wasting your time on TB, PFT, and their ilk.

Remind yourself each time, these people believe that the USG etc... planted fake FDR data, that DISPROVES their own story...thing about it for a minute...see, there you go.

Once you refresh yourself with the fact that that group of CTers are completely out to lunch, it makes things much less stressful.

TAM;)
 
Tino;

you are comparing apples to oranges, stick with cars. You are out of your specialty with aircraft.


No sir, this is apples to apples and a direct diagram reference to the bus,
and data systems used in the 757-200 aircraft.

It's unfortunate you don't recognize the ARINC documentation.
 
Sure, Turbofan. I'd love to learn a thing or two from you. Let's start with this diagram:

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/pft_ARINC.JPG


Here are my questions:

1. Words 2 and 3 in the Message Record can, according to the diagram, be either an ARINC word or a List Buffer Pointer. What determines which it is, in any given Message Record? Under what conditions would it end up as a List Buffer Pointer instead of an ARINC word?

The type of data system determines whether pointers are used, or ARINC
words are used.

The ARINC 717 uses word structures as opposed to address pointers.


2. If data is recorded at precise regular intervals, why is a Time-tag necessary? Shouldn't it be sufficient to record an initial time stamp with an update everyone once in a while (say, every 10 minutes) to avoid drift, and decode the rest of the times by calculating based on the position of the data in the recording?

The time stamps are clocked-in by design. The time intervals are likely
regulated by a standard, and that is why the times are read out frequently
as opposed to 10 minute intervals.

The amount of bandwidth to transmit a time stamp is very small in comparison
to the entire string of data.

For instance, if I know data is being recorded once per second, can't I tell (without all those time tags) that the 223rd sample recorded after the last time stamp represents conditions 223 seconds after the time stamp?

Sure, I suppose. This may be something to direct toward the avaition
industry as they may mandate the timing intervals for commerical FDR systems.

3. Under what conditions would a Hit Counter be recorded instead of a Time-tag in words 4 and 5?

Same as above for question #1. This would be a system design option/regulation.


4. Up to six words of time related data can be stored. Why is this ever necessary if the data coming from the buffer is always current, never old? Under what conditions must a Min and Max Elapsed Time be stored in words 6-9, instead of the alternative of a single Elapse Time in words 6-7?

I will have to refer to the pilots for this answer. I believe this time data
is recorded at all times and can be used to measure timing of pilot function
down the microsecond. Sorry, I'm not too sure but I will find out.

5. What do the bit codes in the Least Significant Bits portion of the Activity Word (ASPD, ERR, GAP, PAR, LONG, BIT, TO, HIT) mean?

ASPD = High (1) indicates high speed transmit, low (0) indicates a low
speed transmit for received data.

ERR = Sets if either GAP through TO indicates an error. Considered a
logic "OR" to the system (IE: GAP, or PAR, or LONG, etc. set an error bit).

GAP = Sets if word is received with a parity error

PAR = Parity check bit

LONG = Sets if system detects a word longer than 32 bits (in error)

BIT = Set if a word is received with an error

TO = Timeout. This bit is set if a noise spike is transmitted on the bus,
or less than 32 bits have transmitted

HIT = Indicates when the system receives and processes the data.


6. What information can you derive from this diagram concerning the timing of data collection and the maximum latency of data in the buffer? That is, what does this diagram signify with regard to your argument?

This shows the answer of min and max timing for Anti-sophist's question of t1- to t5 total time.
 
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Turbofan, have any actual FDR experts joined the PfffT yet?
While you're running like a schoolgirl from a simple yes/no question, I'll remind everyone of the last question you ran from:

See? You won't answer the question "do you think all these groups are in on it". I suspect the reason you won't answer it is that even you realize how ridiculous it is to think that American Airlines, the FBI, the NTSB, the FAA, the entire mainstream media, etc etc are all in on it.

Instead of running like a scared schoolgirl from the implications of your "theory", shouldn't these implications give you pause to reconsider it?
 
What if Turbofan understands the design of a FDR system; he is wrong anyway. What do you call it, when you ignore all the evidence to come up with a failed conclusion?

How pathetic are people who lie about 9/11? Instead of getting a Pulitzer Prize, p4t and Turbofan are stuck with really bad physics posted on a web site of false information and lies when people like Turbofan take the implied information manufactured by p4t and make conclusions.

When will he see Rob is selling false ideas on 9/11 to make money? Capitalism is the root of this small CT that is just common snake oil sales. Turbofan, you are not pathetic, you are only gullible. Your 500 milliseconds are over, now you can set timing on that car, so the kid can burn rubber. 9/11 was solved shortly after 9/11, no longer a theory, 19 terrorist murdered Americans and others because UBL said he would do it. Turbofan may of missed UBL telling us he was going to kill Americans, ...

Will Turbofan understanding FDRs with precision, lead him to understand FDRs can be missing data for unknown reasons? He completely ignores the accidents missing data. Yet stands by his p4t group of physics challenged, false information experts. Did John Lear’s Alien’s visit Turbofan and turn him into a p4t cult member, complete with t-shirt and complete DVD collection.

Why is it hard to give up ideas based on false information, believing pure junk, and ignore all the facts and evidence? lazy? What is it?

11.2 Gs is still so far off, it is the funnies physics error; a classic classroom example of pure stupid. Got Physics?. Thank goodness for Coach Stubbs, my physics teacher. That one error, is so bad, you must be special to ignore it.
 
I haven't been to pft in a year or so since Rob bans people once they question his delusions.

But, who do you think "TurboFan" is over there? I'm not looking for his real name but his posting name.

Anyway, I'm also tired of the same moonbat CT's which get debated OVER and OVER again. I think I'm moving on to more productive boards like football...LOL.
 
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