Why is prostitution illegal?

JFrankA said:
Consider the source:

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/



I don't trust a source that looks at it's subject with a biased approach negatively.

I get the impression these people skew the numbers.

sorry, don't trust them.
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Good choice. That line rightfully sets up a red flag to me. I remember being the voice of critical thought in my Gender Comm class when issues of studies would come up, and my attitude is that studies that paint issues in not only such a stark black and white contrast, but provide the answer as blame towards a racial gender group as a whole shouldn't be trusted.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
I doubt you trust any data which do not support what you already "know".

No matter.
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No, I consider the source. I prefer info from sites that don't have have an agenda.

This stops me from following any "moralistic" views that are half-baked and designed to scare me.

If you've read any of my posts, the articles I trust come from sites that don't have an agenda.
 
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CFLarsen said:
You don't think some women become prostitutes because they have no other choice?
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1) And how is taking away their only last choice, helping them?

2) What does this have to do with people who do it by their own choice?
 
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com

Okay after reading their FAQs I also do not trust this site, because to me it seems like they are clearly trying to link to many things together in order to fulfill an agenda.

I mean look at number 4 of the in order to understand Prostitution FAQ,

the ways in which racism and colonialism are inextricably connected with sexism in prostitution.
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I generally do believe that prostitution predates colonialism, and seems to over step the ideas of racism in that it appears in homogeneous societies.

stripping, exotic dancing, nude dancing, table dancing, phone sex, trafficking, child and adult pornography, lap dancing, massage brothels, and peep shows as prostitution
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Child pornography is bad, and that is without saying. Still it becomes an issue when all those others are lumped together as prostitution. I have actually known exotic dancers who attended college with me. These women weren't hard up and unable to get a job; they did exotic dancing because it made them a lot of money.

The inherent problem with many of these arguments is they actually assume that in all instances that women don't want to do these things. Now we can debate the cultural issues of the messages given to people (as prostitution transcends gender), but to say that a woman never has the ability to choose for themselves to engage in this behavior is actually demeaning to women.
 
1) And how is taking away their only last choice, helping them?

2) What does this have to do with people who do it by their own choice?
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Whenever anyone asks those questions, we seem to get the following answers:

a) poverty is the only reason for prostitution

b) if we make buying sex illegal it will stop prostitution

c) what makes you think that everyone in prostitution enjoys it?

d) no one has a choice for this line of work.

e) there are prostitutes out there who are not high paying escorts

f) there is no such thing as choice

g) capitalism is bad

h) you obviously didn't understand my post or the link

i) you only read what agrees with you.

j) you can't boil down a question to yes or no.

k) that's a strawman. You're good at strawmen arguements.

....have I got all that right? Just making it easier for you guys. :)

Look, I'm being harsh, and I'm sorry for that, but (if I may speak for us "pro-legal prostitution" side), this is all we are hearing. It looks like to me all talk and pontification and no action.

Of course we know that there is human trafficking, we know that are people who are impoverished and feel that this is their only choice, we know that there is drug addiction, physical abuse, murders, etc. We know that.

But, so far making it across the board illegal IS NOT WORKING. It's been illegal a long time, and all those things you are so worried about ARE STILL GOING ON.

So it's been put to making it "half-legal". That solves one (and only one) problem: the cops don't arrest the prostitute. That's it. According to the articles, well the ones that actually talked to the street walkers (the ones you guys are so worried about) it made life if not any different even worse than before.

And to those who say that people have no choice in becoming a prostitute? Fine. Okay. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt with that one.

(And Dann, since it's such a sure thing that people become prostitutes when they faced with poverty, I truly hope for your sake that you are never ever poverty stricken because, by your own stance, you will surely be a prostitute. -- No choice!)

So if it's a sure thing, what's your answer to help these people? I think the questions (and it's not a yes or no question so we don't have to get into dichotomy here), are what Ron just asked.

...and I'm sorry, I know you guys don't like this idea but there ARE people who do choose and enjoy this lifestyle. It's just as wrong to not fit them into the equation as much as it is not to fit the people who are destitute.
 
The only good reason that I can think to keep prostitution illegal is the one that has gotten the least notice, at least since I joined the fray: the public health issue.

Historically, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia have been a scourge, but all are thankfully now treatable with high success.

HPV and Hepatitis B can be reduced substantially with vaccination.

Herpes, although not curable, is usually more of a lifestyle problem than a life threatening one.

Which leaves us with HIV, which although not curable can be controlled for many years with antiretroviral therapy, although at considerable expense.

I suspect that much of the moral repugnance to prostitution derives from the public health aspects. Before the germ theory of disease, when disease was associated with divine punishment, it probably didn't take people long to see that those who had promiscuous sex were struck down by God, and thus defined what they were doing as a sin. Similar to eating pork: eat pork, get trichinosis, and die. Therefore, pork is sinful.

So here the question becomes, would legalizing prostitution lead to an increase or decrease in the transmission of HIV and other STDs? I suppose that would depend on how it is done. If condom use and other "safer sex" practices were required, there might be little additional transmission. There might even be a decrease.
 
gdnp said:
So here the question becomes, would legalizing prostitution lead to an increase or decrease in the transmission of HIV and other STDs? I suppose that would depend on how it is done. If condom use and other "safer sex" practices were required, there might be little additional transmission. There might even be a decrease.
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Well in many places where it is legal, it is highly regulated. This tends to mean constant disease testing and complaince with specific health standards. Limiting the places where prostitution is legal, for example a brothel, prevents a lot of the murdering of prostitutes.

I may not agree with it, and I would never take part in it; but who am I to say that someone should not be able to sell sex if they want to. As long as it is between two consenting adults in a safe environment, and doesn't present a serious public health issue; what business is it of mine?
 
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If you believe that prostitution is bad, and that women are forced into it because of poverty and because they have "no other choice", then we are left with two options:

1) eliminate prostitution and let the prostitutes starve. Or, I suppose if "no other choice" means "no other better choice", let them switch to a worse choice for staying alive: theft or dealing drugs, for example. I would prefer a woman selling her body to stealing my wallet, or selling crack in my neighborhood.

2) give these women other choices better than prostitution. Offer them jobs. Offer them training. Offer them generous welfare benefits. If your theory is correct, then prostitution will magically disappear once they have these other options.

Of course, if it doesn't, you will have to admit that some women do this as a lifestyle choice, not because they are coerced.
 
cyborg said:
That doesn't address my point - at all. How exactly does the removal of choice achieve an increase in choice?
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Do you think that, for instance, the possibility of being able to feed yourself and your children without being forced to 'choose' prostitution as the only option does not increase a person's 'freedom of choice'? Why do you want to make it seem as if legalization of prostitution simply adds another choice? The only thing it does is to legalize the 'choice' already made by these women. Well, that is, except for the fact that most of these women don't tend to become professional, licensed, self-employed or unionized, tax or VAT paying, empowered prostitutes - as the advocates of legalized prostitution in this thread seem to think - because these women don't usually want to be prostitutes, they haven't made a 'career choice' to go on the streets! They are in it because they have no other way out, they don't mention it to their relatives, friends and neighbours, they don't want to be stigmatized as prostitutes, and therefore the majority remain 'freelancers', if possible unregistered, and sometimes a lot of them even give in to the wishes of the johns to have unsafe sex for more money. (And who would want to take away from them this wonderful choice, right?)

Do poor people in general choose to be poor? Do children in the third world choose to work? Do people have to make tough decisions in order to survive?
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No, no and yes. It's a wonderful world of free choice, isn't it?

Does being in a position of luxury give one the right to dictate to people who are almost certainly adequately able to weight up the costs and benefits just like everyone else what they can and cannot do?
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Yes, being rich actually gives you the right to dictate a lot of stuff to other people when you've bought them for the hour or the whole night. There's capitalism for you: Some people live in luxury because they own the means of production (today usually as stocks and bonds), others have nothing and are therefore coerced to sell their services to those of the luxurious class, but I guess that's not what you had in mind when you mention the fiction of equality: "just (!) like everyone (!) else".

In short I want to know how exactly making prostitution illegal will achieve the aims that those who say they want it illegal to "prevent exploitation," will actually achieve that.
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I guess you'll have to ask the people who are in favour of making prostitution "illegal to "prevent exploitation"".

Not evidence of the facts we already are well aware of - namely that people may have to do things they don't want to do which is hardly limited to prostitutes by any means.

In short I want to know why "exploitation" is not a massive Red Herring.
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No, I don't think that you actually do. You see, exploitation is what happens when the world is divided into people with means, who are able to live in luxury, and people without means, who have to sell their 'services' to get by - if they have any to offer and anybody wants to buy them - and starve or at least live in misery if they haven't:
The other thing that I think we need to ask is Why do people go into prostitution? Most of the men and women who become sex workers do so because they're having trouble with money. They're really doing it to stay out of poverty or because they're poor. So poverty is often the cause of prostitution and I think we need to deal with that. I'm not saying that eliminating poverty is the only cure, but I think it is very significant. Some of the studies show that as the economy goes down, prostitution of both men and women goes up. When we start cutting Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), we find more AFDC moms being arrested for prostitution. We've known for many years that many women marry just for money. To me, that's one more form of prostitution.
(…)
We [the United States] control 25 percent of the world's wealth and have only 5 percent of the world's population; yet we can't feed and house our own people. We have children in America who will only be members of what I call the "5H Club": children who are Hungry - every night we have 5 million children who go to bed hungry - then Home-less; Health-less; Hug-less; and Hope-less. That's a real problem.
Dr. Joycelyn Elders in this book, quotations from this blog.
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A wonderful world of opportunities, choices and alternatives, right?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2479841#post2479841
http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/USwelfarestate.htm
 
dann said:
Do you think that... snip world of strawmen...
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I think that you seem to miss the point that making something illegal says you cannot make that choice legally.

No, no and yes. It's a wonderful world of free choice, isn't it?
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So, do I choose to work?

Yes, being rich actually gives you the right to dictate a lot of stuff to other people when you've bought them for the hour or the whole night.
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I guess you're against service industries in general then?

but I guess that's not what you had in mind when you mention the fiction of equality: "just (!) like everyone (!) else".
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I mentioned nothing about equality of circumstance - only that everyone makes choices in basically the same way.

I guess you'll have to ask the people who are in favour of making prostitution "illegal to "prevent exploitation"".
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So what are you advocating? Some kind of socialist utopia is about as far as I can gather round about now.

No, I don't think that you actually do. You see, exploitation is what happens when the world is divided into people with means, who are able to live in luxury, and people without means, who have to sell their 'services' to get by - if they have any to offer and anybody wants to buy them - and starve or at least live in misery if they haven't:
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So is prostitution the Red Herring and you're just all upset about unfairness in general?

I'm upset about the unfairness in my life - won't you be my hero too?
 
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876376&postcount=591

Let's see, that would be answers: a, c, d, f, g from my post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875484&postcount=586

Do you think that, for instance, the possibility of being able to feed yourself and your children without being forced to 'choose' prostitution as the only option does not increase a person's 'freedom of choice'? Why do you want to make it seem as if legalization of prostitution simply adds another choice? The only thing it does is to legalize the 'choice' already made by these women.
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Well, even though I do not agree with your statement, I'll give that to you for the sake of this post.

My arguement is that if it's inevitable, then keeping it illegal isn't going to make matters better, is it? Why not make it legal, so that in the eventuallity that people do become prostitutes there can be legal progarams to help get these people the programs for health care, a way of getting out of prostitution and legitimate personal protection.

Well, that is, except for the fact that most of these women don't tend to become professional, licensed, self-employed or unionized, tax or VAT paying, empowered prostitutes - as the advocates of legalized prostitution in this thread seem to think - because these women don't usually want to be prostitutes, they haven't made a 'career choice' to go on the streets!
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(My bolding)
There ya go, making those assumptions again. Never did anyone, me included, say that absolutely "all prostitutes want to be prostitutes".

Please get off that kick. That was never stated and every time you insist that that was said, it makes you look really bad....

They are in it because they have no other way out, they don't mention it to their relatives, friends and neighbours, they don't want to be stigmatized as prostitutes, and therefore the majority remain 'freelancers', if possible unregistered, and sometimes a lot of them even give in to the wishes of the johns to have unsafe sex for more money. (And who would want to take away from them this wonderful choice, right?)
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..still pontificating are we? All this "you don't see it this way" and "you aren't thinking of the destitute".

And what do you propose, Dann? Keeping it illegal...oh, that's helping.

This is what I mean. All rhetoric and no solution. All smoke. Finger pointing, taunts but nothing concrete.

I'm sorry, Dann but we've discussed this before, ad nausium, I don't see any solutions, ever, in your posts. And it still seems to me that you have no idea what I mean by choice.

All I see from you on this subject is advocating the philosphy of Marxism, with a few insults and misrepresentations thrown in. Sorry, Dann, that's not a solution nor an answer to the questions put to you. What you are doing is simply preaching and pontificating.
 
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cyborg said:
I mentioned nothing about equality of circumstance - only that everyone makes choices in basically the same way.
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Basically they're very different:
'So what do I choose? The lobster or the filet mignon? Well, why choose? I think I'll have both.'
This kind of choice hasn't got much in common with:
'How will I pay the rent, now that I've lost my stinking job?'
 
JFrankA said:
My arguement is that if it's inevitable, then keeping it illegal isn't going to make matters better, is it?
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Gurdur already pointed out to FrankA that the inevitability of something is not exactly what makes it legal or illegal. Theft is not only inevitable in this kind of society but actually expected. Everything forbidden by the state is considered so inevitable that it decided to pass a law against it, but in his dream world FrankA may not have noticed.

Why not make it legal, so that in the eventuallity that people do become prostitutes there can be legal progarams to help get these people the programs for health care, a way of getting out of prostitution and legitimate personal protection.
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Does a single one of those things depend on legalization? And why on Earth does FrankA think that "legal programs" are the way to help prostitutes?
(And why does he try to persuade himself that he is interested in helping anybody out of prostitution?)
 
Basically they're very different:
'So what do I choose? The lobster or the filet mignon? Well, why choose? I think I'll have both.'
This kind of choice hasn't got much in common with:
'How will I pay the rent, now that I've lost my stinking job?'
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So I am to gather than prostitution is the Red Herring in this argument right?
 
Gurdur already pointed out to FrankA that the inevitability of something is not exactly what makes it legal or illegal. Theft is not only inevitable in this kind of society but actually expected. Everything forbidden by the state is considered so inevitable that it decided to pass a law against it, but in his dream world FrankA may not have noticed.
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Misrepresentation: I've never said that the inevitability of something determines if it's legal or not, I've said that since you believe that prostitution is an inevitability, wouldn't it be better if it was legal?

Does a single one of those things depend on legalization? And why on Earth does FrankA think that "legal programs" are the way to help prostitutes?
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Yes, because then they can get government funding, legally ask for donations, become non-profit organization, etc, etc. Also, those who are prostitutes who want to keep working (for whatever reason) can keep making money to feed their families while being trained for other jobs, if that's their choice. Right now, with it being illegal, the people who are seeking help would be less likely to go to such a place because illegality means that if a pimp, let's say wants to force someone not to go, they would be more successful in forcing because there is no legal recourse for the prostitute. No real protection.

..I honestly don't think I'm explaining myself well here...

(And why does he try to persuade himself that he is interested in helping anybody out of prostitution?)
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Why do you think I don't? Where did I say that? Another one of your misunderstandings, perhaps? It's okay, Dann, I forgive you. (*Gives you a big hug*) :)
Dann, the very question:
'How will I pay the rent, now that I've lost my stinking job?'
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Is another way of saying: "What are my choices?"
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FrankA actually got that one! He may not be completely lost.
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Thank you. Now the next step is seeing your choices and weighing the outcomes compared to the sacrifices. Usually, the easier choice (the ones with perceived to have the least sacrifices) are taken. Sometimes it's a hard choice, the proverbial "rock and hard place", choice where there's not much of a difference. And taking that choice falls into what was mentioned before as "It's a bad choice, but I would've taken it too so I don't blame you". Or one can take the risk and make some major sacrifices, as some has. Or people can help.

Also, the choices one has made throughout their lives affect that choice they have to make now. Am I saying that it's the victim's fault if they are kidnapped and trafficked? No, of course not. I'm not talking about fault. I'm talking about choice.

But anyway Dann, I'm sorry to say this, but it's hypocritical to me to say "these people have no choice - why do you insist on your dream world" when you are offering no solutions other than "believe in Marxism, that's the answer." Sorry, Dann, you are sounding more and more like a preacher than a logical thinker.
 
So I am to gather than prostitution is the Red Herring in this argument right?
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*sigh* No, it's not. It's actually the topic of this discussion. I'm falling down the slippery slope and the red herrings that some people have been putting up.

The topic is "Why is prostitution illegal?" We seem to get side-tracked a lot. Partly my fault, too. My apologies.
 
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