Why is prostitution illegal?

[JFrankA]

They are both more evil that a person who offers the staving person a meal.

Ivor, are they are both more evil than saying: "Hey, we've decided to help you: we've arrested all your customers so they won't exploit you. Uhm, you'll still be impoverished, you'll still be addicted to drugs, there's still no help to get you out of the prostitute lifestyle if you wanted, there's still a chance that you will be human trafficked...oh yeah, and we're removed most of your customer base so you'll have even less money, and the customers who are around are the worst ones!

"But hey, it doesn't send a message to all evil-thinking men that women can be bought or sold, and it's popular with the non-prostitute women and politicians!!!! "?

 

[gdnp]

"The fundamental question of choice.

For the same reason, it is doubtful whether prostitution is ever a free choice. What proportion of prostitutes, given the possibility of earning the same or better in acceptable working conditions and in which they did not need to sell their bodies, would choose nonetheless to continue in prostitution?

Gee...same pay, better working conditions? I'll take that, and I'm not a prostitute.

A study made among prostitutes in San Francisco shows that nearly 90% want to leave the industry.
It is worth noting that the regulation camp, to prove that prostitutes choose their profession freely, cite the fact that they prefer prostitution to, say, working in a sweat shop for 15 hours a day. Of course they do. But a choice between two forms of exploitation is not a free choice, nor ever has been, but is purely and simply an abuse of the term.

Are all prostitutes given the choice between sweat shops and prostitution? or Wall-mart and prostitution? If they choose prostitution over Wall-Mart because they don't want to take a pay cut, that's a bit different.

Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights could therefore only have been proposed by the regulation camp by misrepresenting the very notion of "free choice".
Having raised the issue of "consenting prostitutes", we must return for a moment to the notion of "free and clear consent". According to the CCNE's 58th pronouncement of 12 June 1998, "The act of consent implies two areas of ability (or aptitude or capacity): one must be able to understand (clear comprehension or intellect), and to be able to freely choose (free will). Those whose ability to understand is weak or disturbed or those whose freedom of choice is limited[8]8 are considered to be unable to give such consent []" (our emphasis). The issue is the extent of the prostitute's freedom of choice. One could consider, in fact, that she became a prostitute by lack of choice rather than by choice.[9]9 When a woman becomes a prostitute to feed her family and children, as is so often the case in developing countries, was that free choice? Is it not on the contrary the last resort _ when no other option is open for survival, when all the conditions allowing free choice have been eliminated?

Confusing the issue by changing the topic from prostitution in developed western countries where there are job opportunities to underdeveloped ones where there are not. Even in the developing world, the answer to women entering prostitution as a last resort is not to outlaw prostitution, but to give illiterate starving people other job alternatives.

Studies reveal that in the West, more than 70% of prostitutes have been sexually abused as children, and that the average age of entering prostitution is 16 (14 in the United States)[10]10: how can we avoid the conclusion that the "choice" of prostitution "logically" flows from a situation of many years of exploitation, where the identity and autonomy of the individual have already been broken or damaged? Far from being free, prostitution seems on the contrary in every case to be the result of pressures and constraints _ psychological, social, family-related and of course, economic.

I could say the same thing about my choice of profession: medicine chosen over research because it pays better, insecurity about grant funding, my own aptitudes and interests, the expectations of my family and friends. The difference is that most of these societal/family pressures push people away from prostitution, and still there are prostitutes. Go figure.

"Freelance" prostitution, where the individual is independent and keeps their earnings, is rare indeed: the constraints suffered on entering prostitution are exacerbated by the daily constraints of those who profit from the prostitution of their "protégé(e)s".[11]11 Thus the distinction between free and forced prostitution has no basis in fact.

Just saying so doesn't make it true. Even if they were similar in kind, which I dispute, they are still dissimilar in degree. One might as easily state there is no difference between interrogation and torture.

 

[gdnp]

They are both more evil that a person who offers the staving person a meal.

Clearly. How many meals have you offered to prostitutes this week?

Now answer the question. Who is more evil?

 

[Gurdur]

Who is more evil: the person who offers the starving person money in exchange for sex, or the person who calls her a whore, turns up his nose, and walks away? Leaving her to starve?

While I hate to interrupt you beating up on Ivor, can the rest of us have more options than just that bare dichotomy?

What does that make them, good people doing bad things?

One of the most common by far of strategies that runaway young adolescents turn to is prostitution. Pretty much all runaway teenagers turning to prostitution already have great emotional problems (from the family they ran away from), and many have other problems as well, such as ADHD, Bipolar Syndrome, the beginnings of schizophrenia and the like.

Does that make them bad people or good people? Or, just like, people who need rehab and a decent chance at life, rather than exposing themselves to massive risk and really buggering themselves up.

Prostitution has been called degrading.

Sometimes it is. Not all the time, but definitely sometimes.

What should I assume about a person who degrades herself for money? That she is a good person?

I dunno. Why not try talking to her and finding out?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Ivor, are they are both more evil than saying: "Hey, we've decided to help you: we've arrested all your customers so they won't exploit you. Uhm, you'll still be impoverished, you'll still be addicted to drugs, there's still no help to get you out of the prostitute lifestyle if you wanted, there's still a chance that you will be human trafficked...oh yeah, and we're removed most of your customer base so you'll have even less money, and the customers who are around are the worst ones!

"But hey, it doesn't send a message to all evil-thinking men that women can be bought or sold, and it's popular with the non-prostitute women and politicians!!!! "?

Why does the scheme I prefer have to be as you describe?

 

[articulett]

So, are those making prostitution illegal offering the prostitutes a meal or another means of making money or taking care of expenses. Or just a different choice of illegal things to do to get cash?

So-- no answer as to why prostitution is illegal eh? And no evidence that making it illegal saves a single person from exploitation-- much less women in general.

So making it illegal is just a way for people to feel good/moral without actually doing anything good-- kind of like religion?!

So thanks for affirming the obvious even more... prostitution is illegal because it conflicts with peoples' moral views--it's a religious based law disguised as a concern for women. There is no evidence that keeping it illegal benefits any women in any way or keeps them from being exploited. We already have laws to stop exploitation. Consenting adults exchanging sex for money is, in itself, not exploitative for either party and the government has no interest in spending money to enforce vice laws and punish victimless crimes. Racketeering is already illegal. So is battery. So is human trafficking. So is fraud. So is breach of contract. So is underage sex. So is non consensual sex. Legalizing prostitution allows for prostitutes to utilize the law and bargain collectively which certainly is a better means to avoid exploitation then exists currently. Moreover, it takes care of the number one factor leading to measurable exploitation of prostitutes-- the stigma of the work. (Per my peer reviewed article.)

We already have laws to address exploitation of human beings. There is no evidence that making prostitution illegal keeps any human beings from being exploited less than if it was legal-- and tons of evidence that suggests otherwise. It costs money to enforce laws involving keeping prostitution illegal-- clearly, if there is no proof of efficacy, then the money could be better spent to further the stated goals (presumably the exploitation of women).

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Clearly. How many meals have you offered to prostitutes this week?

None this week.

Now answer the question. Who is more evil?

Well I suppose it depends on the energy requirements of the requested sex. Sex burns a lot of calories. The staving prostitute may be better off with an insult and no meal.

So without you providing more details, I can't answer your question objectively.

 

[CFLarsen]

Prostitution in Denmark is legal. Explain that.

 

[cyborg]

So, if women are exploited for becoming prostitutes, it's their own damned fault?

If a woman who is self-employed as a prostitute (you did read what I wrote right?) and feels she's being exploited by the people who buy her services then it would be her own damned fault.

Otherwise you're talking about ancillary activities not directly involved in the act itself which I covered in my post. (You did READ what I wrote right?)

Which means that like any other person then can decide for themselves whether or not they want to continue doing what they do - without the hassle of being told by other people that they can't make that choice.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

So, are those making prostitution illegal offering the prostitutes a meal or another means of making money or taking care of expenses. Or just a different choice of illegal things to do to get cash?

<snip>

The meal and more.

BTW, I'm for making buying sex illegal and selling it legal. That's different to making prostitution illegal.

 

[JFrankA]

BTW, I'm for making buying sex illegal and selling it legal. That's different to making prostitution illegal.

This is what I meant by:

Ivor, are they are both more evil than saying: "Hey, we've decided to help you: we've arrested all your customers so they won't exploit you. Uhm, you'll still be impoverished, you'll still be addicted to drugs, there's still no help to get you out of the prostitute lifestyle if you wanted, there's still a chance that you will be human trafficked...oh yeah, and we're removed most of your customer base so you'll have even less money, and the customers who are around are the worst ones!

"But hey, it doesn't send a message to all evil-thinking men that women can be bought or sold, and it's popular with the non-prostitute women and politicians!!!! "?

 

[CFLarsen]

If a woman who is self-employed as a prostitute (you did read what I wrote right?) and feels she's being exploited by the people who buy her services then it would be her own damned fault.

Otherwise you're talking about ancillary activities not directly involved in the act itself which I covered in my post. (You did READ what I wrote right?)

Which means that like any other person then can decide for themselves whether or not they want to continue doing what they do - without the hassle of being told by other people that they can't make that choice.

You don't think some women become prostitutes because they have no other choice?

 

[JFrankA]

So, are those making prostitution illegal offering the prostitutes a meal or another means of making money or taking care of expenses. Or just a different choice of illegal things to do to get cash?

So-- no answer as to why prostitution is illegal eh? And no evidence that making it illegal saves a single person from exploitation-- much less women in general.

So making it illegal is just a way for people to feel good/moral without actually doing anything good-- kind of like religion?!

Uhmmm... I think Ivor's answer to your question was

Making the buying of sex legal only helps the cheating millionaire husbands deduct the charges for her services from their tax bill.

.....does that help?

 

[gdnp]

Uhmmm... I think Ivor's answer to your question was

Quote:
Making the buying of sex legal only helps the cheating millionaire husbands deduct the charges for her services from their tax bill.

.....does that help?

That quote was so stupid that I thought responding was a waste of time. Since when are personal expenses tax deductible?

 

[cyborg]

You don't think some women become prostitutes because they have no other choice?

I think a lot of people do a lot of things because they have no choice.

Why do prostitutes concern you so much? How exactly do you propose solving the problem of choice by removing some?

 

[dann]

I think a lot of people do a lot of things because they have no choice.

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/fempsy3.html
"Apologists for prostitution legitimize it as a freely made and glamorous career choice. We are told that people in prostitution choose their customers as well as the type of sex acts in which they engage . Bell (1994) suggested that prostitution is a form of sexual liberation for women. We are also told that 'high-class' prostitution is different, and much safer than street prostitution. Referring to prostitutes in general, Leigh said 'most of us are middle class' (in Bell, 1994).
None of these assertions was supported by this study. Our data show that almost all of those in prostitution are poor. The incidence of homelessness (72 percent) among our respondents, and their desire to get out of prostitution (92 percent) reflects their poverty and lack of options for escape. Globally, very few of those in prostitution are middle class. Prostitution is considered a reasonable job choice for poor women, indigenous women and women of color, instead of being seen as exploitation and human rights violation . Indigenous women are at the bottom of a brutal gender and race hierarchy. They have the fewest options, and are least able to escape the sex industry once in it. For example, it has been estimated that 80 percent of the street prostituted women in Vancouver, Canada, are indigenous women (Lynne, 1998)."

 

[cyborg]

That doesn't address my point - at all. How exactly does the removal of choice achieve an increase in choice? Do poor people in general choose to be poor? Do children in the third world choose to work? Do people have to make tough decisions in order to survive? Does being in a position of luxury give one the right to dictate to people who are almost certainly adequately able to weight up the costs and benefits just like everyone else what they can and cannot do?

In short I want to know how exactly making prostitution illegal will achieve the aims that those who say they want it illegal to "prevent exploitation," will actually achieve that. Not evidence of the facts we already are well aware of - namely that people may have to do things they don't want to do which is hardly limited to prostitutes by any means.

In short I want to know why "exploitation" is not a massive Red Herring.

 

[Zelenius]

Why is prostitution illegal? I can think of 3 main "reasons", although I am in favor of legalizing it. The main reasons are:

1) As a moral issue, it is a terrible "vice", it is considered sinful and offensive to public morality by a lot of people(very often for religious reasons). It somehow "cheapens" sex, and is harmful to "family values" and the "social fabric".

2) As a public health issue, many people think it helps spread various diseases.

3) As an issue of civil/women's rights, it is thought to be exploitive of poor, uneducated, abused, sometimes drug addicted women who can't find alternative employment that pays as well. Prostitution is like a "trap" for at least some prostitutes, and if alternative employment paying good money was available to them, they'd leave prostitution behind at the drop of a used condom.

Now as a person who favors legalizing prostitution, I can't really sympathize with the first reason so long as they are consenting adults.

As for the second reason, if in fact prostitution does play a huge role in spreading disease in society, then perhaps it should be illegal or at least very closely monitored by the authorities if it is legal.

The 3rd reason may be the most serious. A lot of young women desperate for money get involved in prostitution when they may be too young to know any better. They often come from poor, abusive, broken homes and have difficulty finding permanent employment. Sadly, many prostitutes start their "work" even before they reach adulthood. And of course, there are many prostitutes who are forced into prostitution. Some of them even suffer from serious mental illness. Even as an atheist, to me there is something a little "icky" about prostitution, especially the thought about it being a "trap" for poor women.

I find myself basically agreeing with Cyborg about this "exploitation" issue being used as a red herring by those who favor keeping prostitution illegal. Or rather, they "misuse" it as a red herring since they don't understand how legal prostitution can help lead to less exploitation. Now since I am in favor of legalizing it, I am not so much using this as a red herring tactic so much as I am simply trying to illustrate why so many people believe prostitution should be illegal, and that even a person like me who favors legalizing it finds himself sympathizing with the women in this "trap". I don't think pointing out that some kind of serious exploitation is taking place should be dismissed outright, as if it is "peachy keen", even if it is not central to the issue of prostitution's legality. That is the main reason I'll probably never do any business with a prostitute, although I don't believe I should have any "right" to stop anyone else from going to one(so long as they are consenting adults). The poorer the women are, the more likely they are to be exploited, generally speaking, and the more it seems likely we are in a "gray" area legally speaking - perhaps they started before they became adults for instance, among other things. The point should be driven home again and again to those who want prostitution to remain illegal due to "exploitation" - that if prostitution is legal, it could help prevent exploitation and the worst abuses, since they will be under police protection instead of being looked at and treated as the "criminals" they are now.

I believe that legal prostitution should be between consenting adults only, 18 and up. There should be very serious penalties for forced prostitution or pimps employing underage girls(just about all the laws regarding this already exist). Legalizing prostitution might even make prostitution safer. Prostitutes should be licensed and registered with the city or state and given regular health check-ups(like they do in the Netherlands), and customers should be required to use protection. They should be confined to Red Light districts and away from schools, and should have police protection. Prostitutes with drug problems should have easy access to counseling and detox. The legal authorities can then focus their attention on illegal prostitution. Truth be told, rape, sexual abuse, exploitation, underage sex, human-trafficking, theft and slavery are already illegal, as has been pointed out before, so no new laws may be required to help stamp out illegal(forced/underage) prostitution.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JFrankA]

Consider the source:

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/

About Prostitution Research & Education
Mission: Prostitution Research & Education (PRE) is a 501(c) 3 nonprofit organization that conducts research on prostitution, pornography and trafficking, and offers education and consultation to researchers, survivors, the public and policymakers. PRE’s goal is to abolish the institution of prostitution while at the same time advocating for alternatives to trafficking and prostitution - including emotional and physical healthcare for women in prostitution. The roots of prostitution are in men’s assumptions that they are entitled to buy women for sex, and in racism, and women’s poverty.

(my bolding by the way)

I don't trust a source that looks at it's subject with a biased approach negatively.

I get the impression these people skew the numbers.

sorry, don't trust them.

 

[JFrankA]

The 3rd reason may be the most serious. A lot of young women desperate for money get involved in prostitution when they may be too young to know any better. They often come from poor, abusive, broken homes and have difficulty finding permanent employment. Sadly, many prostitutes start their "work" even before they reach adulthood. And of course, there are many prostitutes who are forced into prostitution. Some of them even suffer from serious mental illness. Even as an atheist, to me there is something a little "icky" about prostitution, especially the thought about it being a "trap" for poor women.

I believe that legal prostitution should be between consenting adults only, 18 and up. There should be very serious penalties for forced prostitution or pimps employing underage girls. Prostitutes should be licensed and registered with the city or state and given regular health check-ups(like they do in the Netherlands), and customers should be required to use protection. They should be confined to Red Light districts and away from schools, and should have police protection. Prostitutes with drug problems should have easy access to counseling and detox. The legal authorities can then focus their attention on illegal prostitution.

Just my 2 cents.

Dude, that was worth way more than 2 cents....