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Bonati Institute for Back Problems - Woo?

MattusMaximus

Intellectual Gladiator
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
15,948
Howdy all,

I just got an email from a family member advertising a place called the "Bonati Institute", and I didn't know if it's woo or not. This place advertises something called endoscopic and laser surgery for back problems.

The website - http://www.bonati.com - has the look and feel of a slick advertising campaign, and it has bunches of testimonials from "satisfied customers" and whatnot.

I don't know whether to trust this outfit or not, and I couldn't find anything on Quackwatch that would lead to any red flags. Does anyone have any more information on this?

Thanks in advance!
 
If you are going to have back surgery, from what I know, micro surgery is the way to go and that looks like what they are saying is their specialty. Endoscopic laser surgery is legit. But like any surgery, it is the skill of the surgeon you want to look at. A good surgeon will make sure she/he is using the best available facilities.

There is a school of thought that the vast majority of back pain problems including ruptured discs can heal without surgery. If this is for someone in particular, I suggest at least 2 opinions, one from a surgeon and one from a non-surgeon.
 
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On the web site it says:
Dr. Alfred O. Bonati is the author of No More Back Pain: A New and Proven Program to Free Yourself from Back Pain for Life and a number of articles in medical journals and professional publications about arthroscopic and laser-assisted spine surgery.
I dont see them on pubmed. There are lots of articles with an A Bonati as (co) author, but none of them is about spine surgery. This raises a red flag in my opinion.
 
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Searching AO Bonati on pubmed does retrieve one article regarding laser surgery on the knee. Thats all. Pubmed holds no records of American journal of arthroscopy. Is it a peer reviewed medical journal?
I´m not lowering the flag yet.
 
Searching AO Bonati on pubmed does retrieve one article regarding laser surgery on the knee. Thats all. Pubmed holds no records of American journal of arthroscopy. Is it a peer reviewed medical journal?
I´m not lowering the flag yet.
Seems to publish a lot of Sports-medicine related articles. I'm getting a very non-woo feeling from this, mostly because the sites seem to be more informative and less asking me for money (I haven't been asked for money yet).

I found a patent referencing them:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7235100.html

Doesn't necessarily mean it works, but it just doesn't feel like the normal crystal therapy nonsense.

The fact that they're performing surgery in the US is also a good sign, we tend to look dimly on people cutting people open when they don't know what they're doing.
 
I'm getting a very non-woo feeling from this, mostly because the sites seem to be more informative and less asking me for money (I haven't been asked for money yet).
The information he basically gives is that his method is better than standard practice. If you are in pain, and read his page there is a chance that you might chose his clinic instead of a clinic using standard treatment. He claims that his method is better than standard treatment, but he hasn´t presented the data to show it. He can get a patent for any gismo he likes, but to convince his colleagues that his method is better than current practice he has to present the data that shows it. And in the medical field this is done by publishing articles in peer reviewed scientific journals.

Like I said, it is the reputation of the surgeon that really matters. Anyone with "multiple malpractice claims" is not one I would go to.

Neither would I. But we have to remember that certain medical disciplins are more likely to recieve malpractice claims simply because the risks are greater that something can go wrong.
 
The information he basically gives is that his method is better than standard practice. If you are in pain, and read his page there is a chance that you might chose his clinic instead of a clinic using standard treatment. He claims that his method is better than standard treatment, but he hasn´t presented the data to show it. He can get a patent for any gismo he likes, but to convince his colleagues that his method is better than current practice he has to present the data that shows it. And in the medical field this is done by publishing articles in peer reviewed scientific journals.
I was actually talking about the journal, not the site. Sites can be slick, but if you keep seeing references to a journal from academic sites and not woo sites, it's usually a good sign.
 
I must say that I don't get a good feeling about this guy. Even though I only know the Norwegian and European spinal surgery milieus I guess some things are the same in the USA (but please correct me if I'm wrong):

*His credentials: Some of the association and boards mentioned don't exist, some are associations where anybody with an medical exam can join, some are boards like the Arthroscopy Board of North America (ABNA) I don't know how respected ABNA is in the USA, but I can't find it on the list of associations recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialities, and I can't find a official homepage (maybe I'm just bad at googling, but it should be easy to find)

*He has not published any articles about spinal surgery. True, some links come up if you do a scholar google search, but there is only one article (which is about chondroplasty in the knee, some are quotations, and might just as well be a comment in a meeting or in a journal, the rest is patent applications). In spinal surgery, If you haven't published, especially if one claims to be a pioneer like he does, it is suspicious.

*According to the webpages of the Bonati Institute, they use Microinvasive Spinal Surgery (MISS). MISS per se is an acceptable operation technique, but it is well known and used in many places. I would prefer an open technique actually to most types of operation (maybe not diskectomy, and depending of the experience of the surgeon) because the incision is only marginally longer and the surgeon gets better view. Anyway, I can't find any evidence from the information on the homepages that his operation technique is revolutionary and better than other.

*He is, as far as I can find out, not certified by The American Board of Orthopaedic Surgery or any other association recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialities. In Europe this would be highly suspicious, in fact, only those who are certified by the national association is allowed to do independent surgery.

*He claims a 93% success rate. This is just silly and unrealistic. He is either lying, or operating on people who does not need an operation.

*He seems to be a loner, at the least controversial. Ok, this is not a rational argument, but the surgeons I know who have been loners, are very often surgeons who are not very good at what they do. They tend to be the kind of surgeon who does bad preoperative judgements, takes far too many tests, mock up the operation and refuses to take responsibility when the operation is not successful. If you work at a large hospital the other surgeons keep you in check, so an unproportionate part of the loners and the controversial surgeons are just bad surgeons. (Not all, mind)

*On the other hand, the other physicians working at the Bonati Institue seems to have their credentials in order. That wouldn't necessarily mean that they are top people, but at least they don't seem so suspicious.

But, all in all, I personally would absolutely not contact dr Bonati to do surgery on my spine.
 
*His credentials: Some of the association and boards mentioned don't exist, some are associations where anybody with an medical exam can join, some are boards like the Arthroscopy Board of North America (ABNA) I don't know how respected ABNA is in the USA, but I can't find it on the list of associations recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialities, and I can't find a official homepage (maybe I'm just bad at googling, but it should be easy to find)
The ABNA was created by Bonati when he failed his certification exams for the American Board of Orthopaedic Surgery, which is ABMS accredited.
 
I was actually talking about the journal, not the site.
That was not clear from what you wrote, but I do admit that you wrote "sites" and not "Site".
Sites can be slick, but if you keep seeing references to a journal from academic sites and not woo sites, it's usually a good sign.
If the sites were truely academic wouldn´t they like to see evidence before endorsing a new treatment?
The fact that they're performing surgery in the US is also a good sign, we tend to look dimly on people cutting people open when they don't know what they're doing.
I don´t think it is only in the US that people look dimly on incompetent surgeons. Besides, some of you look dimly on everyone who is a doctor. That´s why doctors in US are forced to pay huge sums in insurance.:tongue-ti
 
That was not clear from what you wrote, but I do admit that you wrote "sites" and not "Site".
I thought it was clear from the post I was quoting and the fact that I mentioned papers it published (It's beyond awkward phrasing if the subject of that sentence is a person). Sorry if it was somehow unclear.
If the sites were truely academic wouldn´t they like to see evidence before endorsing a new treatment?
I was refering to the sites that were referencing the journal. Not this treatment. Not endorsing the treatment in any way, shape or form, I was refering to the journal.
I don´t think it is only in the US that people look dimly on incompetent surgeons. Besides, some of you look dimly on everyone who is a doctor. That´s why doctors in US are forced to pay huge sums in insurance.:tongue-ti
Fishing forum thataway. Take Red herrings with you.

Oh and note that this guy did have multiple malpractice suits against him, which basically is what I was saying - you have to be a raving idiot to try woo surgery in this country, non-woo surgery is dangerous enough, legally (of course that doesn't rule out the 'idiot' possibility).
 
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The ABNA was created by Bonati when he failed his certification exams for the American Board of Orthopaedic Surgery, which is ABMS accredited.


Got a link on that? I want to pass it along to my relatives.
 
I was refering to the sites that were referencing the journal. Not this treatment. Not endorsing the treatment in any way, shape or form, I was refering to the journal.
I think I got confused because you wrote:
I'm getting a very non-woo feeling from this, mostly because the sites seem to be more informative and less asking me for money (I haven't been asked for money yet).
Sorry for not understanding what you meant.
Fishing forum thataway. Take Red herrings with you.
I guess the last two sentences that triggered this response was a bit out of line - smiley or not. I apologize.

Oh and note that this guy did have multiple malpractice suits against him, which basically is what I was saying - you have to be a raving idiot to try woo surgery in this country, non-woo surgery is dangerous enough, legally (of course that doesn't rule out the 'idiot' possibility).
Does this mean that the non woo feeling you had is gone or does it mean that you now consider him an incompetent surgeon? Or is he okay because he is doing his surgery in the US? - despite the malpractice suits.
 
I think I got confused because you wrote:
Sorry for not understanding what you meant.
That's okay, I was a bit obscure. I took too much stock in the quote I was responding too, and didn't consider it in the context of the OP.
I guess the last two sentences that triggered this response was a bit out of line - smiley or not. I apologize.
Yeah, I don't love the American medical system, but one of our best features is that we hold doctors accountable for their actions.

What is broke about the system is the lack of any sort of regulation or government intervention in general. It's not the lawyers, though they're a convenient target. Lawyers are like 'the liberal media' - great targets for blame even though they're rarely guilty of what they're accused of.
Does this mean that the non woo feeling you had is gone or does it mean that you now consider him an incompetent surgeon? Or is he okay because he is doing his surgery in the US? - despite the malpractice suits.
About the journal? No. I still don't think that American journal of arthroscopy is a woo publication. I could be proven wrong of course (I still haven't tracked down a copy) but it strikes me as an obscure publication, not a woo one. Of course that doesn't rule out some of their articles being written by bad doctors (nor do bad doctors necessarily write bad articles - surgical skill and article research and writing are basically two entirely different things).
 
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Bonati has been treating patients from Europe as well, including about 200 patients from the Netherlands, through a medical agency founded by him, Medag Europe. This was in the late nineties. Because of all the medical problems the patients developed while and after they were treated by him, Dutch health insurers refuse to cover his treatments. The way he treats patients is very onorthodox, to put it politely. A treatment costs about 20,000 dollars, it is estimated that Bonati made over 10 million dollars by treating Dutch patients alone.
In 2006 he was still active in the Netherlands through another agency called 'Advanced Pain Relief'

In the US, he bought off all his lawsuits for 8 million dollars in 1999 or thereabouts. But there are new law suits on the way.

In the Netherlands, a high court ruled that the way he treated a patient with back injury should not be used, because it 'was not tried and found to be sufficiently safe by the international medical community'.

The above information is on the websites of the Dutch anti quackery organisation and Dutch health insurers.

http://www.kwakzalverij.nl/73/Geen_ziekenfondsvergoeding_voor_Bonati_therapie_
http://www.kwakzalverij.nl/68/Bonati_Ik_ben_wonderdokter_maar_ik_zit_zonder_knecht_
http://www.kwakzalverij.nl/504/Bonati_nog_altijd_actief_in_ons_land
 
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About the journal? No. I still don't think that American journal of arthroscopy is a woo publication.

I agree that the American Journal of Arthroscopy seems to be obscure rather than woo. It seems it only existed from 1991 to 1992, so there are probably no editions online.

Anyway, the only article (the laser chondroplasty) where Bonati is co-author is published in the journal "Lasers in Surgery and Medicine" and the authors are in sequence:

CJ Janecki, MW Perry, AO Bonati, M Bendel

That means that the person doing most of the work is Janecki, then Bendel, then Perry and Bonati is in the "courtesy position", typically the chief of the department. It is in fact not very likely he has done any work on this article.

In the American Journal of Arthroscopy, he didn't (but correct me if I'm wrong) publish any articles, there are only citations, so he might just as well have written an argument in a debate.
 

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