Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Hi BeAChooser
Your postings reminded me of an outstanding question about Perratts plasma model of galaxy formation.
Have you or Zeuzzz found any evidence for the 200 billion galactic plasma filiaments that have to exist to power galaxies?
I would especially be interested in the ones within our Local Group, e.g. the 2 (or more?) that must be associated with the Andromeda Galaxy.
 
As you can see a plasma is not ANY ionized gas.

Actually, you've misinterpreted what you quoted. Ionized gas is a plasma. Whether a given plasma will interact with something some distance away is another matter altogether. That has nothing to do with whether the material is a plasma. Even if it doesn't interact and is shielded from that other body, it's still a plasma.
 
We actually see the sun because of the light generated by it.

Actually, that's what you THINK you see.

In reality, it's your mind projected from your brain interpreting data from your optic nerve transmitting an impulse from the retina reacting to a photon we THINK is emitted by the sun. How is that direct, really ?

We all have to rely on assumptions about reality.

The same cannot be said for dark matter.

Indirect observation is as good as direct observation. Otherwise science wouldn't exist.

We have NOT seen it.

And you only believe what you see, right ? Ghosts, UFOs, bigfeet, nessie, etc. ?

We don't know what it is.

True. How does this make it non-existent ?

But perhaps your interpretation is flawed.

Perhaps, but we're still waiting for an alternative explanation that doesn't equate to "god did it".
 
We actually see the sun because of the light generated by it. The same cannot be said for dark matter. We have NOT seen it. We don't know what it is. Even after decades and decades and decades. You only INTERPRET the motions you SEE as being the result of dark matter. But perhaps your interpretation is flawed. Perhaps you're holding the trunk and calling it a tree when in fact it's an elephant.
BAC, and any other lurker interested:

Skwinty has made several similar points in this thread; why not come on over and join the discussion?
 
Indirect observation is as good as direct observation. Otherwise science wouldn't exist

There is no argument with this concept, however there is a difference between direct and indirect in astronomy.

Binary stars can either be distinguished optically (visual binaries) or by indirect techniques, such as spectroscopy.

Another example would be that you are only indirectly aware of me through this forum and cannot claim to have directly observed me.

At the end of the day, I think that its the interpretation of words that cause the problem rather than the interpretation of scientific fact.
 
Actually, you've misinterpreted what you quoted. Ionized gas is a plasma. Whether a given plasma will interact with something some distance away is another matter altogether. That has nothing to do with whether the material is a plasma. Even if it doesn't interact and is shielded from that other body, it's still a plasma.
So you think that a plasma is any ionized gas? What about an ionized gas with an degree of ionization of 0.00001%? What about 0.000000001%?

But you are just wrong. Ionized gas can be plasma. Not all ionized gas is plasma.
 
If it isn't considered a plasma, then it isn't a plasma. That is how science works. If the majority believes it isn't plasma, then it can't be a plasma. Wikiality at work.
 
OK ...

And for the gas/plasma in question (that which pervades rich clusters of galaxies), what - specifically and quantitatively - are the differences in those properties (gas vs plasma), as they pertain to astronomical observations of those clusters, or potential observations of those clusters?
Bump.

I added some bold - may I and other readers of this thread - expect an answer from you BAC? If so, when?
 
If it isn't considered a plasma, then it isn't a plasma. That is how science works. If the majority believes it isn't plasma, then it can't be a plasma. Wikiality at work.

Actually, that is not how it works, if it fits the definition of a plasma then it is a plasma, regardless of what you (or any perceived majority) consider or call it. Plasma is just a highly ionized gas (which is its definition). Whether it is in a plasma TV, used in the plasma etching to make the integrated circuits you use every day (even now in seeing this) or in astrophysical plasmas. If it is a highly ionized gas, then it is by definition, a plasma.
 
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The definition is decided upon by consensus. That is the very definition of wikiality. Like when Pluto stopped being a planet. because the definition of a planet was changed. By consensus. By some ruling body of scientist.

So Pluto is no longer a planet. By definition.

It is the same thing with a meter, a kilo, or any other made up term/definition. It is what it is, because we say it is.
 
Much like Plasma Cosmology itself. You can't say it is woo/nonsense until you define what it is. If you define it as woo/nonsense, then by definition, it is woo.

If enough people agree it is woo, as defined by them, then it has to be woo. By definition.
 
Hi BeAChooser
Your postings reminded me of an outstanding question about Perratts plasma model of galaxy formation.
Have you or Zeuzzz found any evidence for the 200 billion galactic plasma filiaments that have to exist to power galaxies?
I would especially be interested in the ones within our Local Group, e.g. the 2 (or more?) that must be associated with the Andromeda Galaxy.



Nearly all galaxies have filaments that contain various objects aligned perpendicular to their plane. In standard models this is not predicted, and is still considered a mystery, unless of course you invoke the usual dark matter to explain them, along with every other large scale anomaly in the universe. Dark matter seems very handy in this respect. In Peratts dynamic plasma model of galaxy formation this is exactly what you would expect. You want evidence for this perpendicular to their plane alignment on the andromeda galaxy?


http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn8571
Most of the small satellite galaxies around the Milky Way's near-twin, Andromeda, are lined up in a single plane that slices through Andromeda's spiral disc, a new study reveals.

The alignment suggests the satellites are either floating on a river of dark matter or are the remains of a larger galaxy Andromeda has already cannibalised.

Astronomers have known for about 25 years that the Milky Way's dozen or so satellites line up along two planes that lie perpendicular to its disc. But how the structures formed is still not clear. [...]

The researchers plotted the positions of Andromeda's 14 satellites using images from the Hubble Space Telescope and found that nine of them lay in a relatively thin plane about 52,000 light years wide. "It's unlikely such a plane would arise by chance," Grebel says. The satellites in the plane also shared similar characteristics – most were faint, low in mass, and had already stopped forming stars. [....]

The team believes the plane could have formed in several ways. In one scenario, the galaxies may have fallen towards Andromeda along an invisible filament of dark matter [:rolleyes:]. Computer simulations show these filaments can form a cosmic "web" along which galaxies flow.

Distant observations show evidence for the filaments, since maps of the universe's large-scale structure reveal thousands of galaxies lining up along intersecting streams. But such filaments have not yet been detected near the Milky Way. "One question is, could we see such filaments in our immediate surroundings?" says Grebel. She says two fairly significant masses do lie on either side of Andromeda, with the spiral galaxy M33 just 720,000 light years away and a group of about three dozen galaxies called M81 about 11 million light years away. If a dark matter filament connects all three, Grebel says future observations may show Andromeda's satellites moving along the filament.



So, now the dark matter filaments said to be causing these enigmatic observations are invisible! If they are largely invisible, how can anyone disprove that these dark matter filaments are there? Yet another new mysterious property of dark matter.

dn8571-1_675.jpg



(M31 is the other name of andromeda)

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AJ....131.1405K
The highly anisotropic distribution and apparent alignment of the Galactic satellites in polar great planes begs the question of how common such distributions are. The satellite system of M31 is the only nearby system for which we currently have sufficiently accurate distances to study the three-dimensional satellite distribution. We present the spatial distribution of the 15 currently known M31 companions in a coordinate system centered on M31 and aligned with its disk. [....]



One of the larger ojects alligned along this plane is clearly visible under the galaxy in this picture, although too see all the other objects that have been detected lined along this plane perpendicular to galaxy you would need a much higher resolution;

andromeda.jpg



Quite a paradox for mainstream theories of galaxy formation dont you think? Of course, you could add various extra theories to the existing ones to account for these filaments, such as the mysterious new "dark matter filaments" theories, but parsimony should mean that any theory that requires many completely separate models to account for observations is the less powerful than one theory that addresses all observations in one model.

I am not saying that Peratts model does not have problems, the relationship between stars and thier local environment to account for this motion still needs to be addressed fully, and so does the plasma density required at larger radii in the galaxies to fit with his model, but his model does have the distinct advantage of explaining observations such as these, and is far better at creating the shape and structure of galaxies than purely Newtonian theories. I think that a mixture of his model and normal theories would be a good idea, with Peratts model being applied to galaxies in their early stages of formation where the plasma density is much higher, and also his initial formation idea that does not require the mass to be ejected out of a Big Bang certainly holds merit.

Found a few more publications on his model, for those not already familiar with it;

Electric space: Evolution of the plasma universe Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 244, Issue 1-2, pp. 89-103, 1996
Evolution of the Plasma Universe: I. Double Radio Galaxies, Quasars, and Extragalactic Jets
Evolution of the Plasma Universe: II. The Formation of Systems of Galaxies
The Role of Particle Beams and Electrical Currents in the Plasma Universe
Equilibrium of Intergalactic Currents, B. E. Meierovich and A. L. Peratt, IEEE Trans. Plasma Sci. 20, p.891, 1992 (152KB)
Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasma, A. L. Peratt, APSS 242, 1997 (3.3MB)
Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasma, Part II Astrophysical Force Laws on the Large Scale. A. L. Peratt, APSS 256, 1998 (2.1MB)
 
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I thought they discovered the filaments were plasma? I posted a link about this in another thread.
 
I thought they discovered the filaments were plasma? I posted a link about this in another thread.
What "filaments"?

Z's post is about M31 and its satellite galaxies*.

That post contains no mention of any (observed) filaments associated with M31.

It certainly makes no mention of any plasma filaments!

In fact, Z's post seems to make a very good case that Peratt's model is quite inconsistent with the observations of the location of M31's satellite galaxies! :eye-poppi

You see, these satellites seem to be in a plane ... and I'm sure you know that, in Peratt's model, a spiral galaxy is pierced through its nucleus with a twisted pair of (essentially linear) filaments.

Further, in Peratt's model, the filaments are far, far narrower than "52,000 light years" (~< 0.5 kpc, IIRC) - you did read Peratt's paper(s), didn't you?

In other words, Z has, once again, shown his appalling lack of understanding of even the PC models he is so enthusiastic about filling his posts with.

* the minor mentions of other stuff is irrelevant to the point of his post
 
Huh?

I thought this thread was about Plasma Cosmology ... am I mistaken?

If not, then can you please provide a consistent, quantitative explanation for the observations (of the dwarf galaxies) that is built from first (plasma physics) principles? Preferably one that is contained in a paper (or three) published in a relevant peer-reviewed journal ...
Bump.

May I - and other readers of this thread - expect an answer from you BAC?

If so, when?
 
I think that a mixture of his model and normal theories would be a good idea, with Peratts model being applied to galaxies in their early stages of formation where the plasma density is much higher, and also his initial formation idea that does not require the mass to be ejected out of a Big Bang certainly holds merit.

Yes, but you also think Maxwell's equations in vacuum are applicable to plasma...
 
Nearly all galaxies have filaments that contain various objects aligned perpendicular to their plane. In standard models this is not predicted, and is still considered a mystery, unless of course you invoke the usual dark matter to explain them, along with every other large scale anomaly in the universe. Dark matter seems very handy in this respect. In Peratts dynamic plasma model of galaxy formation this is exactly what you would expect. You want evidence for this perpendicular to their plane alignment on the andromeda galaxy?
Nothing to do with the galactic plasma filaments in Peratts model as you know.

I am not saying that Peratts model does not have problems, the relationship between stars and thier local environment to account for this motion still needs to be addressed fully, and so does the plasma density required at larger radii in the galaxies to fit with his model, but his model does have the distinct advantage of explaining observations such as these, and is far better at creating the shape and structure of galaxies than purely Newtonian theories. I think that a mixture of his model and normal theories would be a good idea, with Peratts model being applied to galaxies in their early stages of formation where the plasma density is much higher, and also his initial formation idea that does not require the mass to be ejected out of a Big Bang certainly holds merit.
The last sentence is nothing to do with his galactic formation model or any other model of galaxy formation.

So I take it now that you think that Peratts model creates the galaxies initially, the galactic plasma filaments vanish at some point and then dark matter magically appears and explains the rotation curves that we see?
This leaves many questions:
  • Where is this stated in his papers?
  • What happens to the galactic plasma filaments? If they are still around then where are they? If they dissipate then what forms them again?
  • What keeps dark matter away from young galaxies? Remember that if you have dark matter then you do not need his model.
  • What proportion of of the 100 billion galaxies in the universe are "young" and have galactic plasma filaments (and once again why do we not see the filaments)?
And a not quite unrelated question: In the various "plasma cosmology" steady state universes I would expect that young galaxies can appear anywhere. My impression though is that they are observed to be at large distances from us, e.g. there seem to be no newly formed galaxies in the Local Group. Is this correct?
 
Plasma is just a highly ionized gas

If that's true, why do so many scientific papers refer to "slightly ionized plasmas"?

Perhaps this is the reason?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-plasma.htm "Even if only 1% of the atoms have lost their electrons, a gas will display plasma-like behavior."

http://plasmadictionary.llnl.gov/te...d=Term&-SortOrder=ascending&ABC=D&page=detail "A plasma with a low degree of ionization is usually a cold plasma, but it is possible to have a plasma with a low degree of ionization (i.e. mostly neutral gas) where the ions present are highly ionized (few electrons left on each actual ion)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_of_ionization "when electricity passes through a novelty plasma ball, perhaps 1% of the gases are ionized (sometimes referred to as partially ionized). ... snip ... A gas may begin to behave like plasma when the degree of ionization is as little as 0.01%"
 
If that's true, why do so many scientific papers refer to "slightly ionized plasmas"?

Perhaps this is the reason?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-plasma.htm "Even if only 1% of the atoms have lost their electrons, a gas will display plasma-like behavior."

http://plasmadictionary.llnl.gov/te...d=Term&-SortOrder=ascending&ABC=D&page=detail "A plasma with a low degree of ionization is usually a cold plasma, but it is possible to have a plasma with a low degree of ionization (i.e. mostly neutral gas) where the ions present are highly ionized (few electrons left on each actual ion)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_of_ionization "when electricity passes through a novelty plasma ball, perhaps 1% of the gases are ionized (sometimes referred to as partially ionized). ... snip ... A gas may begin to behave like plasma when the degree of ionization is as little as 0.01%"
That is why I asked you whether an ionized gas with a degree of ionization is 0.0001% is a plasma. Is it?

A definition of plasma is an ionized gas that has the properties of plasma. There are ionized gasses that do not have the properties of plasma and so are not plasma.
 

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