Andrews Air Force Base on 9/11

[lapman]

Sounds like i was working on them before you. Core memory is what somebody like me who worked on that stuff would call it (and if you know ANYTHING) you are aware of that.Your probably also aware its wierd to have thin film in the same box. Core memory, X and Y axis, brings back OLD memories.


I Worked for Wang upon getting out, till 1990. I friggin hate computers, and am in a completely unrelated these days.
Frankly i cant believe i remember what i remember lol

Then let's drop the subject and move along. I concede that your sevice is plausible based on your descriptions. However, the immaturity of your posts still give me some doubt.

 

[roundhead]

Then let's drop the subject and move along. I concede that your sevice is plausible based on your descriptions. However, the immaturity of your posts still give me some doubt.

Fair enough........


Its not immaturity you are seeing, its perhaps anger and having 5 million things regarding 9/11 go through my head on a daily basis. And at times maybe having a hard time rationally expressing my feelings on the matter.


This much i know, i had zero reason to doubt 9/11 till around 2005. Till then i was disinterested regarding any version of events.
About that time i stumbled across WTC 7 coming down.
Since then, i have read ceaselessly on the subject. Try as i might, every day seemingly in some small way further augments my anti official stance.

I am a 13 bullet RFK guy, abhorr the happenings regarding the USS Liberty, dont think MLK was killed by JER, and am positive LHO didnt kill JFK.

Other than that i am just an ordinary guy who owns a car dealership, drag races a 9 sec Duster, and at my age doesnt mind my girlfriend having a headache going to bed at night anywhere near as much as i used to

 

[johnny karate]

roundhead and bio:

If what you are alleging is true (that there was a stand down order in effect the morning of 9/11, thus implicating elements of the military in a conspiracy to commit and cover-up up mass murder), then why hasn't this particular bombshell been discerned and/or revealed by a single MSM outlet, investigative body, or law enforcement agency on the planet?

This is the fourth time I've posted this question.

roundhead and bio, why are you afraid to address it?

 

[gumboot]

Can anything make you wary?
The "no-coordination" that day was so strange or not?

According to Belger, since the FAA does not have direct dedicated communication links with NORAD, in a hijack scenario the NMCC has “the responsibility to coordinate DOD’s response to requests from the FAA or the FBI.”
9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004

Belger: “I´ve lived through dozen of hijackings in my 30-years FAA-career … and (the NMCC) were always there. They were always on the net. And were always listening in with everybody else. (…) The most frustrating after-the-fact scenario for me to understand is to explain … the communication link on that morning between the FAA operations center and the NMCC … I know how it´s supposed to work, but … it´s still a little frustrating for me to understand how it actually did work on that day.”
9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004 p.36

How can you blame the FAA, if the FAA successfully established phone-bridges to Richard Clarke or the secret service on that day?

Shortly after the WTC is hit, the FAA opens a telephone line with the Secret Service to keep the White House informed of all events. A few days later, Vice President Cheney will state, “The Secret Service has an arrangement with the FAA. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was…” (He stopped himself before finishing the sentence.)
MSNBC, 9/16/2001

This is all backwards. It was the NMCC that couldn't get in contact with the FAA, not the other way around.

Let me be perfectly clear here, because you're ignoring me.

FAA Headquarters never asked the NMCC to scramble fighters.

Got it?

How can the NMCC coordinate their response to an FAA request if the request is never made?

The problem was not with the military, the problem was with the FAA. They never asked for an escort.

 

[gumboot]

9:06 a.m.: Order to halt traffic is expanded to include the entire northeast from Washington to Cleveland. FAA's air traffic control center outside Washington D.C. notifies all air traffic facilities nationwide of the suspected hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11.

This was a hold on departures, not ATC Zero. And the second point is false. The ATCSCC only notified surrounding Centers of the hijacking of AA11. This is why, when AA77 disappeared from Indianapolis ARTCC's radars, they assumed it had crashed - they knew nothing about the events in the east until about 0921.

Why hasnt NORAD scrambled any fighters to protect Washington D.C. by 9:05? How could they not have? Two airliners have already hit the WTC. Nine minutes ago the transponder on American Airlines Flight 77 was shut off and it made a 180 degree turn and has been heading directly for Washington D.C. for 6 minutes. Perhaps now would be a good time to remember that New York City and Washington D.C. are far and away the top two cities in the United States that would be targeted by terrorists. Why hasnt NORAD scrambled any fighters to protect Washington D.C. by 9:05? Stand Down.

Why would they? At 0905 NORAD didn't even know it was a single coordinated terrorist attack. No one would know that until 0930. As for AA77, at 0905 the center controlling AA77 thought it had crashed.

9:11 a.m.: The two F-15 Eagles from Otis Air National Guard station in Falmouth; Massachusetts finally make it to NYC and the WTC. So, it takes these two F-15s, which have a top speed of 1875+ MPH, 19 minutes to cover the 153 miles from Otis to the WTC. This means their average flight speed from Otis to the WTC was only 483.2 MPH or just 25.8% of their top speed. A little math exposes these window dressing fighters for what they are. Thank you NORAD for your September 18, 20001 Press Release. Stand Down.

Maybe you should look up your facts a little better. The F-15s weren't sent to the WTC. They were initially sent to a point north of New York (AA11's last known position) however after the impact at the WTC they were directed to a holding point just off the entrance of Lower New York Bay until NEADS could work out what was going on.

However when the fighters left US military airspace to enter New York ARTCC airspace it was 0905 and New York had declared ATC Zero moments before. As such they refused the fighters entry, and directed them to W-105 - one of the combat ranges over the sea off the Eastern Seaboard.

9:24 a.m.: The FAA notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 77 has been hijacked.

This is incorrect. NORAD were never notified that AA77 had been hijacked.

The FAA lost contact with American Airlines Flight 77 when the transponder signal stops at 8:56 a.m. -- Why does it take 33 minutes for the FAA to tell NORAD that American Airlines Flight 77 has been hijacked? Impossible. Stand Down.

The FAA never told NORAD that AA77 was hijacked. The fact of the matter is that Boston ARTCC were the only FAA facility feeding NEADS any good information whatsoever, and they were oblivious to the fate of AA77.

As late as 0934, Washington ARTCC were only aware that AA77 was "missing" and didn't know it had been hijacked.

Why wasnt Langley AFB scrambled at 8:20 or 8:40 or 8:46:26 or at the very least at 9:02:54?

Why would they have been scrambled at any of these times?

How could NORAD possibly have waited the 21 minutes from the time United Airlines Flight 175 hits the South Tower of the WTC at 9:02:54 before finally scrambling Langley at 9:24? Waiting these 21 extra minutes to finally scramble Langley is the real smoking gun Stand Down that no one can get around

Langley were put on Battle Stations, however the scramble order was pushed back because there were no known threats in the air, and if they put Langley in the air immediately both pairs of fighters would exhaust their fuel at the same time.

Instead, NEADS spent the following half hour moving tanker aircraft into position in W-107, W-105, and W-386 to support the fighters. When news came that there was an airborne threat - the report of AA11 still airborne at 0921 - Langley were scrambled immediately.

9:30 a.m.: Two, possibly three F-16 Fighting Falcons code-named Huntress take off from Langley AFB headed at first toward at NYC.

"Huntress" is the callsign for NEADS. The Langley fighters were Quit 2-5, Quit 2-6 and Quit 2-7. The Langley fighters never flew towards NYC. They were scrambled to Baltimore, however FACSFAC VACAPES (Giant Killer) got a move order for a pair of tankers confused with the move order for the Langley fighters, so sent them towards W-386 instead. This was rectified four minutes later and the fighters were again directed for Baltimore.

A couple of minutes into their mission, according to General Haugen "A person came on the radio and identified themselves as being with the Secret Service" and said, "I want you to protect the White House at all costs."

This never happened. It was fighters from the 121st FS out of Andrews AFB that were ordered into the air by the USSS. They were ordered into the air after the Pentagon was hit.

Why were these fighters headed to NYC when American Airlines Flight 77 has been headed directly for Washington D.C. for the last 31 minutes, and with their communication and transponder turned off for 34 minutes?

No one knew where AA77 was. The fighters were scrambled to Baltimore to form a blocking position between AA11 and Washington DC.

There are no airliners headed for NYC or anywhere else with their communication and transponders turned off. Also, at 9:25 air traffic controllers have already informed the United States Secret Service in Washington D.C. that American Airlines Flight 77 is approaching them very fast.

The last point is totally false. No one knew where AA77 was or where it was headed at 0925.

9:33 a.m.: According to The New York Times, American Airlines Flight 77 was lost at 8:56 when it turned off its transponder, and stayed lost until now. Washington air traffic control sees a fast moving blip on their radar at this time and sends a warning to Dulles Airport in Washington. Is it conceivable that an airplane could be lost inside United States air space for 37 minutes? Stand Down

Yes, it is conceivable. And the contact was detected by Washington Dulles ATCT, not Washington ARTCC.

8:43 a.m.: The FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 has been hijacked.

This is false. NEADS were told by New York Center of a second hijacking at 0903. UA175 actually hit the WTC during the call.

I'd be impressed if the FAA told NORAD that UA175 had been hijacked at 0843 because it wasn't even suspected of being a hijack until about 0850.

NORAD has officially admitted that the FAA told them about the hijacking of United Airlines Flight 175 at 8:43.

NORAD's initial timeline of events was totally incorrect.

So, now NORAD knows about two hijackings and American Airlines Flight 11 has been barreling down on New York City since turning south at 8:26, and is just 3 minutes away from impacting the WTC. What does NORAD do with this new information? Do they immediately scramble the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts? Again, no they dont, they sit on this most vital information of now two hijacked airliners. Stand Down.

This is incorrect. NEADS took the totally unprecedented step not only of ordering a scramble without authorisation, but without an identified target either. They immediately grasped the seriousness of the situation and acted accordingly.

NORAD, by their own account, held on to the most vital information of American Airlines Flight 11 hijacking for at least 6 minutes before ordering Otis to scramble. NORAD, by their own account, held on to the most vital information of United Airlines Flight 175 hijacking for at least 3 minutes before ordering Otis to scramble.

Putting aside the UA175 information for a moment (see above), it's not as simple as getting a hijacking report and then issuing a scramble. The target has to be identified. Scramble has to be authorised. Aircraft have to achieve Battle Stations. A lot has to be done. With no positive lock on AA11's position and no awareness of where it was headed NORAD couldn't do their job properly.

 

[roundhead]

"Norad's original timeline of events was incorrect"





They were probably the "most correct"then than any later morphs.

 

[gumboot]

To say a plane became "invisible"because it turned its transponder off is fantasy.

You need a quick lesson in US radar.

First off, there's two main types of radar. The first is called "primary" radar. This is the traditional radar method of sending a radio signal into the air and monitoring the "reflection" after the signal bounces off the physical hull of an aircraft.

The second type is called "secondary" radar. This involves a transmitter sending out a signal which interrogates the transponder carried by an aircraft. The aircraft's transponder then responds with certain information, depending on the mode being used (unique transponder code, altitude, heading, etc).

In the United States the FAA operates a series of radar sites to cover the air traffic flying over the country. Primary radar coverage is provided by Primary Surveillance Radars (PSRs). Long range Air Route Surveillance Radars (ARSRs) provide feeds to FAA ARTCC centers while smaller Airport Surveillance Radars (ASRs) provide feeds to TRACON and ATCT facilities.

Secondary coverage is provided by the ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System) which consists of transponders on aircraft and beacons on the ground. The beacons are mounted on PSRs and turn with them, however (and this is important) not every radar site has a PSR - quite a few are "beacon only" sites that only provide secondary radar coverage. For example, of the nine sites feeding to Indianapolis ARTCC, only six have primary radars.

In the United States all aircraft flying in Controlled Airspace above a minimum altitude are required by law to carry an operating transponder. As such the FAA relies almost exclusively on its secondary radar network. During normal operations primary coverage is turned off, and only secondary returns are displayed by the Radar Data Processor - a computer that filters radar information.

Using a switch, the controller can turn on their primary coverage if the need arises, however they need to have a reason to turn it on.

To fully understand what happened with AA77, it's important to understand how radar is displayed on a radar screen.

Although a given airspace receives signals from multiple radar sites, the RDP doesn't display everything. This would cause chaos as the radars are turning, and thus each would paint a given aircraft at a slightly different time, and therefore at a slightly different place, producing a double image (or even triple image!).

So instead, airspace is divided into "sort boxes" which measure 16 miles by 16 miles. Each sort box is assigned to the closest radar site, and when the RDP receives signals for that airspace it ignores everything except the feeds from the radar site assigned to that sort box. Thus any given area of airspace is covered by exactly one radar site only.

(There's also back up sites assigned to each sort box in case the preferred site is offline at the time, but that's not relevant to this discussion).

The problem here, of course, is that the controller cannot see the sort boxes, they have no idea which radar site is feeding which part of their screen, and they have no control over it. They see a single uninterrupted picture.

Now, in the case of AA77, by sheer bad luck it was flying in a sort box assigned to one of Indianapolis ARTCC's beacon-only radar sites when it was hijacked. As such, when the aircraft vanished, it totally vanished from the system. No doubt the controller immediately turned on their primary coverage, but since the radar site assigned to AA77's airspace had no primary coverage, the contact for AA77 did not appear.

So with total loss of communication and transponder, the controller rightly concluded the aircraft had suffered some sort of catastrophic break up. They knew nothing of what was happening on the east coast, and indeed it would be another ten minutes before the second attack, and a half hour after that before the FAA would know that coordinated terrorist attacks were under way.

While AA77 was in this dead airspace it turned around. Despite your assertions that AA77 turned for Washington DC before its transponder was turned off, you're wrong on that count. AA77 made a slight course change towards the south prior to transponder loss, but it didn't make its full turn until afterward. As such controllers were searching for AA77 to the south and west of its last position, and that's where they expected it to reappear on primary radar if it hadn't crashed.

By the time anyone realised it was a hijacked aircraft and might be headed back east, it was long gone, just another needle in the haystack of civil aircraft filling the sky.

Now, as for military radar...

The FAA has a number of different models of ARSR, the newest of which is the ARSR-4. It's the only primary radar that has height-finding capability, although this isn't actually used by the FAA.

The ARSR-4 sites are located around the perimeter of the USA and form the Joint Surveillance System (JSS). This network provides radar feeds to both the FAA and NORAD. This gives NORAD a degree of primary radar coverage over the USA, however not sufficient to see where AA77 was hijacked.

The ARSR-4 feeds are sent from the radar sites to the various FAA facilities where they are processed and displayed on screens. Another feed is sent from the FAA facility to NORAD's three Sector Operations Control Centers (SOCCs) known as WADS, NEADS and SEADS (NEADS and SEADS have since merged into EADS).

The problem begins with how each organisation uses their feed.

The FAA uses primary radar only as a back up - in fact as early as the mid 90's the FAA were pushing hard to scrap primary radar altogether and only the military protested about it. A few months before 9/11 the FAA had actually started the process of preparing to shut down the primary network all together.

For NORAD, however, primary radar is their key tool. Their concern was detecting infiltrating enemy aircraft coming in low over the water, trying to avoid radar contact. Obviously these enemy aircraft would not have transponders. They'd be small, they'd come in low and fast, trying to be invisible. As such NORAD turned up the sensitivity on their radars as high as it could go so they could detect every single little radar return.

Now this was well and good for aircraft coming over the water, but it had repercussions on the landward side - it made their radar totally useless.

The reason is ground clutter.

Ground clutter is noise on a radar scope as a result of the radar signal bouncing off objects near or on the ground. This can include buildings, trees, and even insects in the air.

Over water, where NORAD was interested in looking, there's virtually no ground clutter, so they could turn up the sensitivity without a problem. But on the landward side, over the eastern seaboard, the ground clutter was enormous, and effectively made it impossible for them to locate anything.

This is why, although the FAA were able to track AA11 on primary radar, NEADS could not locate the flight.

And that is how a plane became "invisible" because it turned off its transponder.

 

[gumboot]

"Norad's original timeline of events was incorrect"





They were probably the "most correct"then than any later morphs.

No, it wasn't. The later rendition of events, as presented by the 9/11 Commission, was more or less accurate. (I've pointed out one or two minor mistakes the 9/11 Commission made in their air defense timeline).

 

[SDC]

If the scenario you are suggesting is true, it wouldn't be the first time someone in the upper levels of the US Military used his position to benefit Israel.

... followed by a quote on Jonathan Pollard. Hey, we've got a winner! I am proud to say that I now expect to be quoted in all sorts of anti-semitic conspiracy sites! I am honored, honored to be recognized in locations frequented by vile lunatics. The envelope, please.

Atrain's views are so spoiled by bigotry that nothing that comes out of his keyboard is to believe. Who knows, though, maybe dogs ...

 

[Alferd_Packer]

"NORAD uses a network of ground-based radars, sensors and fighter
jets to detect, intercept and, if necessary, engage any threats to
the continent."

Obviously reading comprehension is not your strong suite

 

[Dave Rogers]

That explains why there were no fighters scrambled from Andrews. NEADS simply issued no such orders-- or, more correctly, if such orders were given, they were never relayed to the actual pilots in their planes. That also explains why no fighter pilots have come forward to suggest a standdown. They were never ordered to standdown; they were either given delayed orders to scramble (Otis), or bogus orders to fly the wrong way (Langley), or no orders at all (Andrews). Presto: a standdown with no standdown order.

A classic piece of fantasy presented as fact, A-Train. Did you notice that the 9-11 Commission recalled NORAD officers because their testimony didn't agree with the ATC timeline? There's evidence, therefore, that they compared and contrasted the testimonies of ATC and NORAD, looked for discrepancies between them, and acted on the discrepancies they found. How come they failed to do the same with NEADS and Andrews, which would inevitably have led them to notice that orders were sent out from NEADS which Andrews never received? In your "Blame the Jews" scenario, remember that the 9-11 Commission is supposed to be innocent. How did they miss the glaringly obvious fact that the orders sent out by NEADS weren't even received by Andrews?

Dave

 

[A-Train]

In your "Blame the Jews" scenario, remember that the 9-11 Commission is supposed to be innocent. How did they miss the glaringly obvious fact that the orders sent out by NEADS weren't even received by Andrews?

I can't imagine any scenario in which the 9/11 Commission is "supposed to be innocent." That body was stacked from the outset with pro-government hacks, starting with Philip Zelikow and going from there. They "missed" whatever they were told to miss, and dealt with only what they were told to deal with.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I can't imagine any scenario in which the 9/11 Commission is "supposed to be innocent." That body was stacked from the outset with pro-government hacks, starting with Philip Zelikow and going from there. They "missed" whatever they were told to miss, and dealt with only what they were told to deal with.

So now are you claiming that the US Government was behind 9-11, rather than the Israeli Government carrying out a flase flag attack on US soil?

And, incidentally, do you have any evidence that orders were sent out from NEADS and never arrived at Andrews?

Dave

 

[tsig]

Sounds like i was working on them before you. Core memory is what somebody like me who worked on that stuff would call it (and if you know ANYTHING) you are aware of that.Your probably also aware its wierd to have thin film in the same box. Core memory, X and Y axis, brings back OLD memories.


I Worked for Wang upon getting out, till 1990. I friggin hate computers, and am in a completely unrelated these days.
Frankly i cant believe i remember what i remember lol

Neither can we.

 

[tsig]

Fair enough........


Its not immaturity you are seeing, its perhaps anger and having 5 million things regarding 9/11 go through my head on a daily basis. And at times maybe having a hard time rationally expressing my feelings on the matter.


This much i know, i had zero reason to doubt 9/11 till around 2005. Till then i was disinterested regarding any version of events.
About that time i stumbled across WTC 7 coming down.
Since then, i have read ceaselessly on the subject. Try as i might, every day seemingly in some small way further augments my anti official stance.

I am a 13 bullet RFK guy, abhorr the happenings regarding the USS Liberty, dont think MLK was killed by JER, and am positive LHO didnt kill JFK.

Other than that i am just an ordinary guy who owns a car dealership, drag races a 9 sec Duster, and at my age doesnt mind my girlfriend having a headache going to bed at night anywhere near as much as i used to

Yes and I'm a green-skinned reptile capable of doing mind control.

In fact I am controlling your mind right now.

 

[tsig]

I can't imagine any scenario in which the 9/11 Commission is "supposed to be innocent." That body was stacked from the outset with pro-government hacks, starting with Philip Zelikow and going from there. They "missed" whatever they were told to miss, and dealt with only what they were told to deal with.

The world is not limited to your imagination.

 

[lapman]

Its not immaturity you are seeing, its perhaps anger and having 5 million things regarding 9/11 go through my head on a daily basis. And at times maybe having a hard time rationally expressing my feelings on the matter.

Then maybe you should concentrate more on you girlfriend and business than so much on 9/11. Have a nice BBQ this weekend, so some really nice, romantic things with your girlfriend so that "headache" can go away for a while and you can do something much more fun and productive.

This much i know, i had zero reason to doubt 9/11 till around 2005. Till then i was disinterested regarding any version of events.

Same with me until 9/11/06 when some truthers invaded the message board I was in and started spouting the "Truth Movement" lies. I almost started to believe them until I noticed that the sound of the "explosives" were missing from every single video that I looked at. I started researching the claims more and found more and more to not be based on reality.

About that time i stumbled across WTC 7 coming down.

Here's problem #1. Up until that time, you had zero idea that WTC 7 even existed, let alone collapsed. So you should be questioning why purposely demolish it if it serves no purpose to further BushCo's agenda?

Since then, i have read ceaselessly on the subject. Try as i might, every day seemingly in some small way further augments my anti official stance.

The problem is that you are only reading one side of it and not checking out anything that the "Truth Movement" states to see if it's really true. You've gotten yourself so worked up about it that you refuse to even contemplate that you just might be wrong.

I am a 13 bullet RFK guy, abhorr the happenings regarding the USS Liberty, dont think MLK was killed by JER, and am positive LHO didnt kill JFK.

See above. Since you spent so much time in the military, you should know that common sense does not exist in military doctrine and government politics.

Other than that i am just an ordinary guy who owns a car dealership, drag races a 9 sec Duster, and at my age doesnt mind my girlfriend having a headache going to bed at night anywhere near as much as i used to

Then go racing, sell some cars, if you can, and enjoy life.

 

[A-Train]

So now are you claiming that the US Government was behind 9-11, rather than the Israeli Government carrying out a flase flag attack on US soil?

And, incidentally, do you have any evidence that orders were sent out from NEADS and never arrived at Andrews?

Dave

The US Government was not behind the 9/11 attacks. Philip Zelikow was not behind the attacks. Zelikow is representative of the group of partisan hacks and wheelhorses rounded up to put a rubber stamp on the official story. That is the sordid legacy of the 9/11 Commission, which lacked credibility from its inception.

I don't have any evidence of what orders were issued or were or were not delivered. The tapes of the personnel in charge of that aspect of the operation have disappeared due to an alleged "technical issue." The point is that, if no orders are issued, you have a standdown. No need for a "standdown order."

 

[Dave Rogers]

The US Government was not behind the 9/11 attacks. Philip Zelikow was not behind the attacks. Zelikow is representative of the group of partisan hacks and wheelhorses rounded up to put a rubber stamp on the official story. That is the sordid legacy of the 9/11 Commission, which lacked credibility from its inception.

So you're claiming that the US Government was complicit in an Israeli false flag attack on the USA to the extent of suppressing evidence that it ever occurred, on the basis of a complete absence of evidence other than a flight attendent confusing two seat numbers at a time of high stress and a confused account that may have suggested that one hijacker had a gun?

I don't have any evidence

Let me stop you there.

Dave

 

[A-Train]

" .... other than a flight attendent confusing two seat numbers at a time of high stress and a confused account that may have suggested that one hijacker had a gun?

It seems that whenever debunkers start losing an argument-- whether it be about the standdown, or the reports of a gun-- you start throwing the word confusion and all its conjugations about in a very liberal manner.

There was nothing confused about Deena Burnett's report of Tom's witnessing a gun. She called 911 and on this recorded call, she said, "They just knifed a passenger and there are guns on the plane." Later, she told the London Times,

"He told me one of the hijackers had a gun. He wouldn't have made it up. Tom grew up around guns. He was an avid hunter and we have guns in our home. If he said there was a gun on board, there was."

Very straightforward and deliberate. Absolutely nothing confused about it.