Andrews Air Force Base on 9/11

I have been reading through this thread, and I must say it appears roundhead keeps digging himself into a deeper and deeper hole. He has produced so much FAIL its very difficult to count. Give it up roundhead, you are just embarrassing your self.
 
Says you, which means, so what.

What i find interesting about the Mineta testimony("aside from the testimony itself, which is corraborated in several ways)is the fcat zero mention of it found its way into the commision report, but 9:58 did, mysteriously, and his testimony that he did give vanished from the site. If its full of beans why strike it from public view, not that it is of course.

Mineta's testimony did not "vanish from the site" it is easily available on the 9/11 Commission website, as well as countless other places on the web.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm

Why do you truthers lie about things which can be so easily checked? It is bizarre.
 
They're hoping no one will check and will buy into what they're saying. This, of course, hinges on people thinking they have a shred of credibility to speak on such things.
 
This link is from Prison planet, but i suspect its elsewhere as well, it was just the first that cme up in the search...so



Mineta’s Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC) testimony was also edited out of the 9/11 Commission video archive.
When questioned about this, representatives at the National Archive stated that the video may have been lost because of a ‘snafu’. Following is a brief summary of the scrubbed video along with links to recently obtained C-SPAN video.



His testimony is super credible, and actually Cheney gives it more substance on TV.

His testimony only reinforces what i already knew. 9/11 was planned, intercept protocol was rewritten just before 9/11 so Cheney and Rummy could call the shots regarding the standdown, and it pretty much drives a nail in Cheney as a murderer.

Once Kean and Roemer heard it, they knew the cat was out of the bag. I bet 2 in 10 people are even aware of this testimony and its repercussions.

I have watched it, its extremely credible, Cheneys narrative in the bunker is incriminating, and sweeping it under the rug is rightly imperative to the oficial lie. I understand the worry from lie zealots.


You are too obtuse to understand that Mineta's "super-credible" testimony has been shown to be roughly forty minutes off. That is why the commission members rejected it as unworthy of inclusion in their final report. As has been pointed out hundreds of times, NO REPORTERS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD NOTICED THAT DICK CHENEY, FOR UNFATHOMABLE REASONS, CONFESSED HIS PARTICIPATION IN A MONSTROUS CRIME. NOBODY WANTED TO BREAK THE BIGGEST STORY IN THE HISTORY OF JOURNALISM. NOBODY IN THE WORLD.
 
Now that we have the timeline, let's analyze it. Take the first jet: American Airlines Flight 11:
  • 8:13am, AA11 is hijacked.
  • 8:37am, the Boston Center ATC informs NEADS of AA11's hijacking and requests an interception.
  • 8:38am, the two F-15s on alert status at Otis ANGB (Air National Guard Base) are put on “Battle Stations” (pilots enter their aircraft and await the signal to launch)
  • 8:39am NEADS contact Boston Center ATC and discovers they do not know where AA11 is (because the aircraft’s transponder has been turned off).
  • 8:44am, despite having no coordinates for intercept, NEADS decide to launch the Otis aircraft anyway.
  • 8:46am AA11 hits the North Tower of the World Trade Center.

<snipped for content>

Roundhead: Please. Read the links I've been providing. Please. You continue to make mistakes. You continue to base your posts on misapprehensions of what you believe should have been, not on the reality of how the civilian ATCs and military truly react.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70300
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1845150&postcount=1

and roundhead (and bio) have skipped over this post completely. yet, reply to other posts that CAME AFTER this post.

roundhead, please reconcile your claims with the timeline above.
 
roundhead and bio:

If what you are alleging is true (that there was a stand down order in effect the morning of 9/11, thus implicating elements of the military in a conspiracy to commit and cover-up up mass murder), then why hasn't this particular bombshell been discerned and/or revealed by a single MSM outlet, investigative body, or law enforcement agency on the planet?

Bump for roundhead.
 
Supporting the official story is, in my patriotic mind, treasonous.

Are you actually suggesting that those Americans who believe the true story about what happened on 9-11, and not the nutcase Truther non-theory, is a traitor?

Traitors, tried and convicted of their crime, get the death penalty. Is that what you would suggest for us? Or just life in prison..with "re-education"?
 
The Washington air corridor was closed down shortly after 9 that morning.There werent a ton of planes (perfectly visible on military radars)flying around without transponders.

Can you source that?

Air traffic controllers disagree.
They didn't learn that it wasn't a military plane until a traffic controller from Reagan National Airport called to say, "Dulles, hold all of our inbound traffic. The Pentagon's been hit." source

According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, seven aircraft landed at Reagan National between 9:29 a.m. and 9:39 a.m.

American Airlines Flight 684 landed at 9:29 a.m. America West Flight 98 landed at 9:39 a.m. Airbus A320
Continental Flight 803 landed at 9:33 a.m. MD-82
Delta Flight 730 landed at 9:31 a.m. Boeing 757
USAirways Flight 1610 landed at 9:31 a.m. Boeing 737
USAirways Flight 6511 landed at 9:34 a.m.
United Airlines Flight 338 landed at 9:37 a.m. Boeing 737
 
So what's the general gist of this discussion? I don't really have the desire to read three pages of stupid.

I noticed the main OP question was why American Airlines Flight 77 wasn't intercepted. Arguments about the readiness of the 121st Fighter Squadron, distance to Langley, and that sort of stuff is totally irrelevant. The reason AA77 wasn't intercepted was because no one knew where it was.

AA77 disappeared from Indianapolis ARTCC scopes at 0856EDT and the aircraft wasn't located on radar again (although no one knew it was AA77) until 0934 when it was spotted on scopes at Washington Dulles ATCT.

No one in the entire United States (with the possible exception of Hani Hanjour) knew where AA77 was during the intervening 38 minutes.
 
So what's the general gist of this discussion? I don't really have the desire to read three pages of stupid.

Oh, it's the same sort of stuff that's been brought up before. Why weren't Andrews AFB fighters scrambled, the planes were missing from radar for 40 minutes what was going on, NORAD has radar coverage all over the US, NORAD can scramble and intercept in X minutes, blah blah, yadda yadda. It's nothing you yourself haven't already answered a thousand times before. Heck, all I've been doing to respond is cutting and pasting your stuff from your previous posts.

I noticed the main OP question was why American Airlines Flight 77 wasn't intercepted. Arguments about the readiness of the 121st Fighter Squadron, distance to Langley, and that sort of stuff is totally irrelevant. The reason AA77 wasn't intercepted was because no one knew where it was.

AA77 disappeared from Indianapolis ARTCC scopes at 0856EDT and the aircraft wasn't located on radar again (although no one knew it was AA77) until 0934 when it was spotted on scopes at Washington Dulles ATCT.

No one in the entire United States (with the possible exception of Hani Hanjour) knew where AA77 was during the intervening 38 minutes.

That's been pointed out, but the conspiracy peddlers in this thread are not ready to listen.

ETA: Here's an example of the fantasy, from Roundhead, post #52:
They knew it was highjacked shortly after 9 that morning. Are you truly that dumb? Honestly? PLANES HAVE HIT TOWERS , this plane is flying around without a transponder, easily seen on military radar, and its not a highjack till 9:35...you are out of your mind, a very common ailment around here, it seems.

Like I said, it's been pointed out already that AA77 was flying through areas with no primary radar coverage, but again, like I said, he's not ready to listen to that argument. He keeps bringing up his expertise from working on F-14's in the US Navy, as if that somehow gives him info on ground-based air traffic control radars that no one else, the airlines included, know about.

Anyway, as a general response to the various posts (not really in response to a specific one) I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting your timeline you assembled from the Vanity Fair article and added some of my own commentary to it. You can see it on the previous page.
 
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The Washington air corridor was closed down shortly after 9 that morning.


This is incorrect. The first ATC sector to declare ATC Zero was New York ARTCC, at 0905. Boston ARTCC followed suit soon after, but Washington ARTCC remained open for business for much longer.



There werent a ton of planes (perfectly visible on military radars)flying around without transponders.

Declaring ATC Zero and emptying your airspace are not the same thing. When AA77 hit the Pentagon there were about 4,000 commercial aircraft in the air over the USA - most of them in the east. I'm not sure what you're referring to by "military radars", but NORAD - the only organisation with assets capable of scrambling for an intercept - doesn't have any radars of its own in the Continental United States. It relies on the ARSR-4 radars of the Joint Surveillance System. These radars are fed to FAA ARTCCs and then a feed is sent from the ARTCC to NORAD.


FAA protocol (which i have already posted)would ASSUME( and with certainty after 9 that morning)that an offcourse jetliner without a transponder was a highjack. And immediately ask for help. They're byword is to assume the worst.

This is incorrect. A non operating transponder was not a hijacking indicator on 9/11, and a hijacking did not automatically call for military escort.


From my USN days aboard the Kennedy, even back then an F14 had the ability to track and engage seven targets at the same time.

The F-14s Hughes AWG-9 radar could track 24 targets and engage up to six at a time.

I'm sure you're aware, having worked with F-14s, that the F-14 had the most powerful and unique Air to Air radar ever developed, specifically designed to be used with the AIM-54 Phoenix long range air-to-air missile.

I'm also sure, being so avionics savvy, that you're aware there's a rather fundamental difference between the radar on a combat interceptor and a ground based air route surveillance radar like the ARSR-4. Further, I am sure you're equally aware that there's a rather fundamental difference in operational procedure between a long range interceptor engaging waves of enemy bombers during full-out Nuclear War and alert fighters trying to locate wayward civil airliners in civil airspace during peace time.




And dont try and tell me nobody knew 77 was a rogue until 9:35. Thats the bigest crock i have EVER heard.

Well other than the passengers, the hijackers, the parents of one flight attendant, and possibly a customer services representative at American Airlines, no one knew AA77 was rogue until probably the afternoon of 9/11, if not September 12.

Having said that, at 0921 Indianapolis ARTCC suspected that AA77 had been hijacked. Of course it doesn't do much good to suspect an aircraft is hijacked if you don't know where it is or where it's going.



As i said earlier, its plain as day, confusion was faked, planes were vectored intentionally errantly, and slowly.If at all. Not to mention the coincidence of wargames morphing the Exact same circumstances that day, a 1 in 365 chance.

What on earth are you talking about?



Norad claimed no interceptors were in the air before the Pentagon hit, that lie has been changed several times, to reflect the commisions third version.

This is incorrect, NORAD had fighters in the air moments after WTC1 was hit.
 
Oh, it's the same sort of stuff that's been brought up before. Why weren't Andrews AFB fighters scrambled, the planes were missing from radar for 40 minutes what was going on, NORAD has radar coverage all over the US, NORAD can scramble and intercept in X minutes, blah blah, yadda yadda. It's nothing you yourself haven't already answered a thousand times before. Heck, all I've been doing to respond is cutting and pasting your stuff from your previous posts.


Oh right. Never mind then. So someone clueless about the air defense system is just rehashing ignorant nonsense (this time claiming that since they worked on Tomcats they must be some sort of authority, I notice)?
 
Oh right. Never mind then. So someone clueless about the air defense system is just rehashing ignorant nonsense (this time claiming that since they worked on Tomcats they must be some sort of authority, I notice)?

Yeah.

I'm going to bed; it's midnight where I'm at right now. If you want to rebut him, you can just do what I've been doing, which is mine your old work for relevant quotable paragraphs. Like I said, it's not anything that hasn't already been answered. He's basically just parroting a lot of DRG material along with some CIT stuff.
 
This is incorrect. A non operating transponder was not a hijacking indicator on 9/11, and a hijacking did not automatically call for military escort.
Particularly since no previous hijacking involved a suicide mission into a building, most previous ones ended with the plane landing someplace. Please feel free to correct me if that is in error...

roundhead said:
As i said earlier, its plain as day, confusion was faked, planes were vectored intentionally errantly, and slowly.If at all. Not to mention the coincidence of wargames morphing the Exact same circumstances that day, a 1 in 365 chance.
What on earth are you talking about?
I second that. Plain as day? confusion was faked?
When will the unsubstantiated speculation ever end?
 
Particularly since no previous hijacking involved a suicide mission into a building, most previous ones ended with the plane landing someplace. Please feel free to correct me if that is in error...


This is quite true. The funny thing is that the two specific things roundhead is claiming NORAD should have done - blasted through civil airspace over urban areas on afterburner, regardless of local air traffic, and shooting down a civil airliner - were both rather explicitly forbidden by NORAD regulations on 9/11.

Firstly, the CJCSI (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction) regarding escort of hijacked aircraft explicitly forbid the use of interceptor aircraft as weapons platforms to fire on hijackers or the aircraft they had hijacked. This was in accordance with US laws that restrict the use of the military in a law enforcement role (see Posse Comitatus Act and Insurrection Act).

Secondly, NORAD intercept protocols strictly forbid the use of AFIO over Continental USA airspace. AFIO - Authorisation for Interceptor Operations - is a declaration that NORAD can make to the FAA which gives their interceptors priority over all other air traffic, and allows them to break regulations with regard to altitude and speed.

Interestingly enough, at 0934 when NORAD learned there was an unknown aircraft over Washington DC they broke with their own regulations and declared AFIO for the Langley fighters. To their credit the civil controllers didn't question this technically unlawful declaration.

Unfortunately AA77 crashed at 0937 so the fighters didn't have a chance of getting there in time.
 
Conspiracy liars are the among the dumbest humans on the planet, but there are limits to everything. No one, not even you, wants another Norman Mineta thread. You may noticed an overabundance of them. In case you've been in a coma for the last five years, Mineta's timeline was discredited. He is off by more than a half-hour. NO plane was fifty, or thirty, or ten miles out. They were hearing about a projected flight path for what turned out to have been Flight 93.

Then debunk Clarke and Mineta:

9:10 am. Cheney, Rice go from White House to the Presidental Emergency Operation Center (PEOC), the bunker
Clarke, 2004, pp. 3-4

9:15 am: Mineta arrives at White House is briefed by Clarke.
9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003

... and provide explanation, where Mister Cheney was until 10:00 (as he should have been arrived in the bunker)
 
The main problem this day was, that the FAA could not reach the the NMCC until 10:17 a.m on 9/11:
10:17 am: FAA finally joins NMCC Teleconference. It cannot join because “technical difficulties.” So leaders from NORAD and FAA are out of contact during crisis.
9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004

“Prior to 9/11, FAA’s traditional communication channel with the military during a crisis had been through the National Military Command Center (NMCC). They were always included in the communication net that was used to manage a hijack incident.” Berger says that, since the FAA does not have direct dedicated communication links with NORAD, in a hijack scenario the NMCC has “the responsibility to coordinate [Defense Department]‘s response to requests from the FAA or the FBI.” [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004 pdf file; 9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004]
Monte Berger was FAA Acting deputy administrator.

The National Military Command Center (NMCC) within the Pentagon “is the focal point within Department of Defense for providing assistance. In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference d, forward requests for DOD assistance to the secretary of defense for approval.”
US Department of Defense, 6/1/

NMCC could not be contacted by the FAA - due to "technical difficulties? Are you serious and believe that incredible story?

Why did FAA contact military bases by itself? The reason is: The standard procedure failed that day. The scrambling has been coordinated by the NMCC until 9/11. Therefore the FAA headquarter and even FAA flight controllers contacted NEADS and military bases by themselves:

8:34 am. Boston Headquarters attempts in vain to contact Atlantic City Fighters, to send fighters after Flight 11. Fighters are not on alert, practising eight minutes from New York city. They are not alerted to the emerging crises. Had the two Atlantic Fighters been notified at 8:37 or before, they could have reached New York before Flight 11 hit the WTC.
Bergen Record, 12/5/2003, 9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004
 
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Then debunk Clarke and Mineta:

9:10 am. Cheney, Rice go from White House to the Presidental Emergency Operation Center (PEOC), the bunker
Clarke, 2004, pp. 3-4

9:15 am: Mineta arrives at White House is briefed by Clarke.
9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003
Clarke doesn't actually provide those times at all. You're giving us dubious inferences as though they were facts.

That aside, if you search for Mineta here you'll find plenty of discussions. I also realised that truthers were using Mineta, Cheney in the PEOC and Richard Clarke claims to support each other, so I tried to explain why that didn't work here:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Dick_Cheney_at_the_PEOC
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_Richard_Clarke_teleconference
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta
 

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