• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

What To Do About Iran?

senorpogo said:
That said, I realize that any situation that leads to the end of said civilization will probably be preceded by a great deal of noise and fury emanating from and towards Israel. That would, in my mind, lead to destabilization of the region, high oil prices, massive casualties, endless CNN coverage hosted by that pompous Wolf Blitzer, and, who knows, maybe even an Elton John song about it all. In short, a generally bad day for all involved. Add to that the 100K+ American soldiers in the vicinity (members of my nation-team) that could be in harms way and it makes keeping Israel around seems like a prudent option.
Click to expand...

I am in harmony with all of that, save for your conflation of American and Israeli security.

And the Elton John song: fear it! :jaw-dropp
 
Darth Rotor said:
I am in harmony with all of that, save for your conflation of American and Israeli security.
Click to expand...

Meaning what exactly? That we currently don't share security interests with Israel or that we do even though we shouldn't?
 
Darth Rotor said:
Way to go, you dove into the gutter with the least provocation.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute, you were the one who said the loss of Israeli civilization was no big deal. It would be very comparable to the Holocaust, which is why they have the motto "Never again."

Tell me, what loss to civilization was the five million dead in the Congo over the past few years, a butcher's bill similar in order of magnitude to what I am asking about?

How are such distinctions made, that a similar loss in a different locale is somehow more of a loss?
Click to expand...

Did you see me saying that the Congo crisis is no big deal? You're the one making the equivalent claim with regard to Israel. Or is it just Israeli deaths that don't bother you?

Economically, there is a big difference though. If Israel gets nuked, do you think Iran (the second biggest member of OPEC) is going to be pumping much oil out of the ground? Their oil would be glowing for several decades.

So just from a selfish standpoint there is good reason to prevent Israel from being nuked.
 
Brainster said:
Wait a minute, you were the one who said the loss of Israeli civilization was no big deal.
Click to expand...
No I didn't, I asked you why it was? Try not putting words into my mouth. You were being given an opportunity to tell me why its loss is a big deal, particularly as compared to the lost civilizations I listed. You completely missed the point.
It would be very comparable to the Holocaust, which is why they have the motto "Never again."
Click to expand...
Oh stop it, Johnny One Note. Can't see the forest for your emotional trees.
Did you see me saying that the Congo crisis is no big deal? You're the one making the equivalent claim with regard to Israel. Or is it just Israeli deaths that don't bother you?
Click to expand...
See above. What about Israeli Civilization, YOUR WORDS, is such a big deal.
Economically, there is a big difference though. If Israel gets nuked, do you think Iran (the second biggest member of OPEC) is going to be pumping much oil out of the ground? Their oil would be glowing for several decades.
Click to expand...
That has bloody eff all to do with your chosen concern, Israeli Civilization.
So just from a selfish standpoint there is good reason to prevent Israel from being nuked.
Click to expand...
Try understanding my question. It hinges upon a word you chose.

Israeli civilization.
Why is this civilization so special?

This is not a question about the Holocaust, genocide, or much of anything else, but your chosen vehicle of Israeli Civilization.

Now, care to actually answer my question?

Not a fan of genocide, ya see, but that isn't the issue you raised.

DR
 
Last edited:
senorpogo said:
Meaning what exactly? That we currently don't share security interests with Israel or that we do even though we shouldn't?
Click to expand...
Since the Wall fell, Israel's utility as a client state has decreased. The attempts to pretend that Israel's importance to the US is equal to the importance of, say, NATO, is a current political hobgoblin that I consider a useless myth.

Turkish security? Yeah.

Indian security? Yes.

Italian and Spanish Security?

Yes.

Israel?

No. Good to have as a friend and ally, sure, and a good place, but hardly as important as our latest set of nominees pretend it is in public utterance.

DR
 
Understood. Thanks for the explanation. I tend to agree.

Darth Rotor said:
hardly as important as our latest set of nominees pretend it is in public utterance.
Click to expand...

I'm starting to suspect that Israel may have a strong lobby in Washington.
That's a new theory of mine.
 
Last edited:
Darth Rotor said:
No I didn't, I asked you why it was? Try not putting words into my mouth. You were being given an opportunity to tell me why its loss is a big deal, particularly as compared to the lost civilizations I listed. You completely missed the point.

Oh stop it, Johnny One Note. Can't see the forest for your emotional trees.

See above. What about Israeli Civilization, YOUR WORDS, is such a big deal.

That has bloody eff all to do with your chosen concern, Israeli Civilization.

Try understanding my question. It hinges upon a word you chose.

Israeli civilization.
Why is this civilization so special?

This is not a question about the Holocaust, genocide, or much of anything else, but your chosen vehicle of Israeli Civilization.

Now, care to actually answer my question?

Not a fan of genocide, ya see, but that isn't the issue you raised.

DR
Click to expand...

I am not at all sure where you're going with this. Is this some quibble about using the word "civilization"? I was just trying to maintain the parallel to the original quote, which used "Western civilization".
 
we should keep ratchiting up the sanctions. eventually, either the iranians will cave in and agree to stop enrichment, or the people will rise up and depose their crappy leaders.
 
Brainster said:
I am not at all sure where you're going with this. Is this some quibble about using the word "civilization"? I was just trying to maintain the parallel to the original quote, which used "Western civilization".
Click to expand...
Will you admit that using such a useless, nebulous term did nothing for the discussion on the topic of this thread?

Israel as a nation state is one matter. I fully grasp and am supportive of a nation state trying to maintain itself. I get that.

Israeli Civilization, if such a thing exists beyond a rhetorical term, is less than sixty years old. Western Civilization is buit upon a successively layered foundation, accrued over over dozens of centuries.

The parallel was not just badly chosen, but of no use to the discussion.

DR
 
It's interesting that the subject What to do about Iran? has become What to do about Israel?
 
senorpogo said:
Understood. Thanks for the explanation. I tend to agree.

I'm starting to suspect that Israel may have a strong lobby in Washington.
Click to expand...
A lobby that attempts to conflate Israeli security with American security. ;)

It is my surmise that the government in Israel is paranoid that its prime big friend of the past forty years may realize that the utility of Israel as a client isn't worth what it once was.
That's a new theory of mine.
Click to expand...
Is this like Anne Elk's theory of the brontosaurus? :)

(Monty Python reference)

DR
 
boloboffin said:
It's interesting that the subject What to do about Iran? has become What to do about Israel?
Click to expand...
You can thank Brainster, and my nitpicking his gambit. Mea culpa on the derail.

Now, back to Iran:

So far, my luncheon idea is the best so far in this thread. :D

Invite them over for lunch: ham and swiss on pumpernickel, shrimp salad, and a nice white whine.
Click to expand...

My other long belabored point on this set of forums is that given Iran's neighbors have some nukes, is it irrational for them to seek a deterrent? (Put aside Mahmoud's loudmouthed bluffing for the moment for the rhetorical political tripe that I think it is.)


DR
 
Last edited:
Darth Rotor said:
Will you admit that using such a useless, nebulous term did nothing for the discussion on the topic of this thread?

Israel as a nation state is one matter. I fully grasp and am supportive of a nation state trying to maintain itself. I get that.

Israeli Civilization, if such a thing exists beyond a rhetorical term, is less than sixty years old. Western Civilization is buit upon a successively layered foundation, accrued over over dozens of centuries.

The parallel was not just badly chosen, but of no use to the discussion.
Click to expand...

Okay, I didn't get what you were talking about. Your point is reasonable.
 
Invading a bordering country with a shock and awe opening ceremony would probably be the best thing to make Iran fearful of producing nuclear weapons with the Americans next door. After all, that worked so well with Iraq.

Oh..wait..
 
So now nobody belives the NIE (Iran not researching the bomb since 2003)report, but before this alot of people believed in "Iraq has WMDs".

Even Cheney knew that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY Iraq was an Quagmire. Baradei (chief IAEA) in 2005 said that Iran is just "months away" from having a functional a-bomb and it's 2008 and no bomb.

This is just to picture how many stupid claims have been made over the years and how many innocent people died because of such stupid paranoid claims.

15 years from the bomb, 7 years, 5 months... I mean c'mon.. shoudln't you loose the job for saying such wild estimates that never seem to be accurate at all??
 
What to do about Zimbabwe and Robert Mugabe. I think that is more important. Oh yeah and then there is that think in Darfur that should be stopped. Ah and Myanmar military junta blocking aid. Well Iran getting nuclear weapons is not a problem. And is there even proof that Iran is trying to get a nuclear weapon? Or is this Iran thing another bad intelligence just like the WMD"s in Iraq?
 
parky76 said:
we should keep ratchiting up the sanctions. eventually, either the iranians will cave in and agree to stop enrichment, or the people will rise up and depose their crappy leaders.
Click to expand...


But there is no evidence that they will use their enriched uranium to make nuclear weapons. Nor do I believe that they intend to destroy themselves by attacking Israel. That's stupid to think - not to mention that they have upcoming elections and the falsley supposed "Israel wiper" may go anyway giving the fact that he's not a very popular Figure in Iranian Peoples Opinion.

So what the heck - get over it. Playing hysterical doesn't help anyone - besides Ahmadinejad's support from other Muslim Nations... And you don't want to see a nuclear championship in the Middle East if others feel threatened by the US as well - just like Iran...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom