12-year old girl with an 80-year old spine

[Lonewulf]

Apparently, Larsen assumes that he's funny. I'm sure there's plenty of invisible lurkers that we never heard of that are laughing uproariously at his funnies.

Anyways, like I said, I'll be ignoring his post. I have no patience for trolls, or people driven by an agenda to demonstrate an entire group as "wrong" because of the poor decisions of a few.

 

[Roboramma]

Veganism doesn't lead to a poor diet.

Oh wait, yes it does.

Do you have any evidence for that statement? I'd be interested to either way. For instance, do people, on average, who choose to go vegan tend to be less healthy than they were before they made that choice? Is this still true when we account for aging?

Does it necessarily mean that your diet is poor? No. But unless you're willing to put lots and lots of time and effort into research, vitamins, and other supplements, it will lead to a poor diet, especially for a growing kid with totally different nutritional requirements from a healthy adult.

Sure, but less healthy than a non-vegan diet that you don't pay any attention about? (I can see that the answer might be yes, but I don't know).
How many vegans fail to do that research? A large majority or an insignificant minority? Enough that they are on average less healthy than non-vegans, or is it the other way around?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but for your post it sounds like you do.

 

[CFLarsen]

And that somehow justify your opposition to it?

You do understand the point?

And that somehow justifies your condescending tone in your posts?
Are you posting to debate and change other people's minds or make yourself feel better?

Apparently, Larsen assumes that he's funny. I'm sure there's plenty of invisible lurkers that we never heard of that are laughing uproariously at his funnies.

Anyways, like I said, I'll be ignoring his post. I have no patience for trolls, or people driven by an agenda to demonstrate an entire group as "wrong" because of the poor decisions of a few.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

 

[GreyICE]

Do you have any evidence for that statement? I'd be interested to either way. For instance, do people, on average, who choose to go vegan tend to be less healthy than they were before they made that choice? Is this still true when we account for aging?

Yes. Complete proteins are almost only found in meat. If you simply eliminate meat from a diet, and increase other typical foods to compensate, you will miss tons of essential proteins. You have to very, very carefully plan a diet to get sufficient protein with no animal sources (vegetarians can just eat eggs, but that obviously doesn't work for vegans). Also, note you can't just hit one vegetable protein source, because it'll be short amino acids. You have to correctly plan out your diet every single day, just to hit the right mix of amino acids you get from animal sources.

Needless to say, if you go vegan because of 'think of the animals' without proper thought, you're in for a world of pain.

Sure, but less healthy than a non-vegan diet that you don't pay any attention about? (I can see that the answer might be yes, but I don't know).

Yes. The average unplanned diet increases in nutrition if you include meat. The average planned diet is a stupid question, because there are obviously different qualities of plans (I eat at McDonald's every day is a plan).

How many vegans fail to do that research? A large majority or an insignificant minority? Enough that they are on average less healthy than non-vegans, or is it the other way around?

I don't know. Moreover, I've never seen a good survey on it (and I've looked). I have seen vegans from both categories, and I know enough about nutrition to know the dangers of veganism. In any case, why would you choose a diet that has a good risk of leaving you with major to severe health complications with bad planning? Seems idiotic, at best.

I don't know the answers to these questions, but for your post it sounds like you do.

If you jump off a cliff with a parachute and survive without injury, is it a good argument for jumping off cliffs with a parachute?

 

[Lonewulf]

And it sounds like you're stating that if someone breaks their legs because their parachute gives way, that any and all skydivers with parachutes are all idiots.

Either way, my prediction was right. This thread is just an excuse to throw insults at people who's lifestyles you disagree with. That's okay; but I see absolutely no reason to stick around.

If anyone has an argument worth arguing, just PM me to return if you wish me to.

 

[CFLarsen]

And it sounds like you're stating that if someone breaks their legs because their parachute gives way, that any and all skydivers with parachutes are all idiots.

Either way, my prediction was right. This thread is just an excuse to throw insults at people who's lifestyles you disagree with. That's okay; but I see absolutely no reason to stick around.

If anyone has an argument worth arguing, just PM me to return if you wish me to.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

 

[GreyICE]

And it sounds like you're stating that if someone breaks their legs because their parachute gives way, that any and all skydivers with parachutes are all idiots.

The difference is that one is a failure of a system that rarely fails, and another requires abandoning a system that already works quite nicely for one that requires constant attention and careful planning to avoid damaging you. It's like trading in your car for a go-kart.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about anymore, except maybe you.

 

[Fnord]

Purely speculation on my part, but the parents may have considered supplements to be part of "Big Pharma", and/or not natural.

My son, who is both an atheist and a vegan, has mentioned that there is an extreme cult-like form of veganism that rejects supplements for just this reason. They also reject wool, leather, and synthetics in favor of cotton and linen; down pillows are okay, but only if the feathers are "gathered" and not plucked; they eschew deodorants, but use glycerine soaps; et cetera.

 

[Madalch]

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

Because he considers them to be a natural part of the vegan diet. So when you claim that a vegan diet is unhealthy because it lacks certain nutrients, he considers you to be full of it because they're all in the supplements.

 

[Madalch]

I remember reading something recently about rickets in the UK and how it was more common among ethnic minority groups (I think the specfic piece I read was about asian cmmunities in Bradford). This is because their darker skin makes it difficult to produce enough vitamin D from sunlight in countries like the UK. Pure speculation, but this could be a combination of a poorly planned diet, a child with dark skin and not enough sunshine in Glasgow.

More speculation- darker skin is correlated to lactose intolerance, and milk is the food most highly enriched in Vitamin D.

 

[paximperium]

You do understand the point?

You have yet to bring up any valid ones.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

Yes I find it ironic that a meat-eating person who tends to be against veganism is defending their position. I guess I don't like dishonesty.

Again. What about supplements?
You sound like a Creationist-what about the gaps, what about abiogenesis? Bring up a point and stop with the insinuations.

 

[paximperium]

The difference is that one is a failure of a system that rarely fails, and another requires abandoning a system that already works quite nicely for one that requires constant attention and careful planning to avoid damaging you. It's like trading in your car for a go-kart.

While I agree that Veganism is "unnatural" and can be harmful, that's a similar argument against driving a hydrogen or electric car. Why abandon gas powered cars? "Its a system that already works nicely for one that requires constant attention and careful planning..."

Its their decision. As long as they don't force it down others throats and it is inherently not harmful, I see no problem with it. I detest the PETA folk as much as any, but I know enough vegans to see some responsible folk who made a choice, don't bother anyone else with it(unless it comes to going out to eat) and don't go preaching to others.

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about anymore, except maybe you.

Gotta agree with you there.

 

[Whiplash]

Thank you, you just made my case for me. If your Vegan diet isn't bad, why would you need other sources for those nutrients that aren't in the diet?

Hm?

I have to admit, I was wondering the exact same thing. If you need to take nutritional supplements with the diet in order to meet all your RDA requirements, that doesn't make alot of sense to call it a good, healthy diet.

 

[hecaterin]

Vegan diet does not automatically translate into "completely healthy" either. Not all vegans take the time to assess their nutritional needs. They simply assume, "if it's vegan, it must be healthy" then, when deficiencies arise, they wonder why.

Personally, I equate vegetarianism with homeopathy and weird religions, but that's just my opinion.

I think of it more as "gateway to woo". Not every vegan is a fool, but a rather alarming number of them are. It's *possible* to be a healthy vegan if you put the work into it, but a high proportion of them are also other weird alt-health nuts, like anti-vaccers and homeopaths. Look at the ads in vegan publications...

 

[CFLarsen]

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about anymore, except maybe you.

You have yet to bring up any valid ones.
...
Again. What about supplements?
You sound like a Creationist-what about the gaps, what about abiogenesis? Bring up a point and stop with the insinuations.

You both need to educate yourself: Vegans take supplements, because otherwise they won't get what they need.

Sure, some may be able to cover most of it, if they live in an area where they can get a lot of different stuff, but it sure is hard to be a Vegan if you live away from that.

Because he considers them to be a natural part of the vegan diet. So when you claim that a vegan diet is unhealthy because it lacks certain nutrients, he considers you to be full of it because they're all in the supplements.

That's what I thought, too.

Its their decision. As long as they don't force it down others throats and it is inherently not harmful, I see no problem with it. I detest the PETA folk as much as any, but I know enough vegans to see some responsible folk who made a choice, don't bother anyone else with it(unless it comes to going out to eat) and don't go preaching to others.

Ah, but that's the problem, isn't it? Because why are people Vegans? For ethical reasons. They think that meat-eating is immoral and unethical. Which makes meat-eaters.....?

I have to admit, I was wondering the exact same thing. If you need to take nutritional supplements with the diet in order to meet all your RDA requirements, that doesn't make alot of sense to call it a good, healthy diet.

Ayup. It also destroys the idea of Veganism altogether. You simply can't abide the philosophy anyway.

Since Vegans make a point out of being ethically superior, one could argue that it makes Vegans hypocrites...

 

[DoubtingStephen]

Since Vegans make a point out of being ethically superior, one could argue that it makes Vegans hypocrites...

Any straw in that argument? Do all Vegans make a point of being ethically superior, or just the ones to whom your comment applies? Paintbrush too wide for the job?

It's conceivable that I may have the most difficult diet of anyone on the forum. I do follow a vegan diet as a matter of choice, and I am required to follow a gluten-free diet as a matter of medical necessity. These two requirements sometimes overlap, meat that has been marinated may contain soy sauce, and most types of soy sauce contain wheat. Far more often foods that are vegan are not available to me for medical reasons.

So things like bread, beer, and some other vegan sources of B-12 are off limits to me. I do take B-12 supplements, most days I'll take a B complex supplement or a One-A-Day style multivitamin complex.

Elsewhere in this thread there was a claim made that vegans base their dietary practices on woo. I find that interesting because I was not of the opinion that all vegans were vegan for the same reasons.

I make no claim to be morally superior to anyone, nor do I claim that anyone else on this planet should be expected to live as I do. I make my choices for my own personal reasons, I do not moralize about what other people should or should not eat, and I'd appreciate that courtesy being returned.

Some of the foods I do not eat would make me very ill if I did eat them. Other things I do not eat are merely foods I have chosen to avoid for reasons of my own. In either case I fail to see how anyone else is harmed or even slightly inconvenienced by my not eating any specific food.

 

[CFLarsen]

Any straw in that argument? Do all Vegans make a point of being ethically superior, or just the ones to whom your comment applies? Paintbrush too wide for the job?

It's conceivable that I may have the most difficult diet of anyone on the forum. I do follow a vegan diet as a matter of choice, and I am required to follow a gluten-free diet as a matter of medical necessity. These two requirements sometimes overlap, meat that has been marinated may contain soy sauce, and most types of soy sauce contain wheat. Far more often foods that are vegan are not available to me for medical reasons.

That's a whole different issue, then.

So things like bread, beer, and some other vegan sources of B-12 are off limits to me. I do take B-12 supplements, most days I'll take a B complex supplement or a One-A-Day style multivitamin complex.

There ya go.

Elsewhere in this thread there was a claim made that vegans base their dietary practices on woo. I find that interesting because I was not of the opinion that all vegans were vegan for the same reasons.

I make no claim to be morally superior to anyone, nor do I claim that anyone else on this planet should be expected to live as I do. I make my choices for my own personal reasons, I do not moralize about what other people should or should not eat, and I'd appreciate that courtesy being returned.

Some of the foods I do not eat would make me very ill if I did eat them. Other things I do not eat are merely foods I have chosen to avoid for reasons of my own. In either case I fail to see how anyone else is harmed or even slightly inconvenienced by my not eating any specific food.

Why do you choose not to eat certain kinds of food?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

More speculation- darker skin is correlated to lactose intolerance, and milk is the food most highly enriched in Vitamin D.

I haven't read the literature thoroughly, but a lot of academic papers do mention immigration of darker skinned people to temperate climates as a factor. Rickets seems to be less of a problem for dark skinned people in less temperate regions (though I have also read that in countries where it is custom for the women to cover up more, they are also at risk and may need supplementation). So I would say it is a little more than speculation.

Obviously if your diet has sufficient vitamin D then the skin colour is not really a factor, but many people do not get enough vitamin D solely from their diet.

 

[DoubtingStephen]

Why do you choose not to eat certain kinds of food?

To do an adequate job of answering this question I would have to go into a lot of unpleasant details involving an extremely traumatic event I would prefer not to dredge up in public, so, personal reasons covers most of it.

To some extent I also wish to avoid doing unnecessary harm to other living creatures, although I readily draw lines. If a head of broccoli is too slow to run away from me, I just might eat it. And if our entire society collapses in some horrible apocalyptic way, the pigeons that roost on our garage roof might be well advised to leave before lunchtime.

 

[paximperium]

You both need to educate yourself: Vegans take supplements, because otherwise they won't get what they need.

Sure, some may be able to cover most of it, if they live in an area where they can get a lot of different stuff, but it sure is hard to be a Vegan if you live away from that.

Educate myself about what? Again, yes Vegans take supplements. So? Perhaps when you produce a scientific paper that shows how unhealthy veganism can be(Hint: Try looking up the a large British study that spans 17years on this-then look up the several papers concerning heart disease, cancer, nutrient deficiencies etc. You can also present several of the papers that show bone deformities, underweight babies etc.) Perhaps then, I'll take you seriously.

What business is it of yours that being Vegan is hard?

"Ah, but that's the problem, isn't it? Because why are people Vegans? For ethical reasons. They think that meat-eating is immoral and unethical. Which makes meat-eaters.....?"

What a big straw man you have. Anyway so what?
What business is it of yours why people do something that is inherently not harmful. What are you, the thought police?

"Ayup. It also destroys the idea of Veganism altogether. You simply can't abide the philosophy anyway.

Like I've mentioned many times, veganism isn;t natural or even super healthy but if done right, it isn't harmful. What business is it of yours what other people do if it is not harmful?

Since Vegans make a point out of being ethically superior, one could argue that it makes Vegans hypocrites...

So? Do you dislike veganism because of its health problems or just because you don't like its practitioners?

What do you want? legislate morality or something?