Merged Teacher leads kindergarten class to vote boy with Asperger's out of class

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well done.

I think your quote code is misplaced but thanks for the compliment. I just don't understand why my comments are having such a little impact on the continued assumptions here the teacher must have done exactly what the 5 yr old and emotional mother said the teacher did.

Witch trials come to mind.

 

[BeAChooser]

My son with autism

Good post, Dave. Spot on.

 

[rwguinn]

I think your quote code is misplaced but thanks for the compliment. I just don't understand why my comments are having such a little impact on the continued assumptions here the teacher must have done exactly what the 5 yr old and emotional mother said the teacher did.

Witch trials come to mind.

It is much easier to blame the teacher than to accept that the attitudes and system that result in such a story may (repeat--MAY) be the result of policies and theories that don't work?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I dunno US, do you really find someone attractive going on about this incident all victimy and everything?

That's why I used the adjective hot because no, she is not attractive as a person.

 

[JoeEllison]

It is much easier to blame the teacher than to accept that the attitudes and system that result in such a story may (repeat--MAY) be the result of policies and theories that don't work?

Or maybe it didn't happen at all the way it is claimed to have happened? It seems like you're trying hard to dive head-first into a pit of broken glass. Don't do it!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It is much easier to blame the teacher than to accept that the attitudes and system that result in such a story may (repeat--MAY) be the result of policies and theories that don't work?

I'm not sure which policies and theories you are referring to.

I have no doubt the story could have happened. Sadly, there are plenty of incompetent teachers. But I find it very troublesome that most of us recognize the unreliability of the news media and their penchant for writing about outrage and controversy whether it exists or not, yet there appears to be an almost complete failure here to recognize the role that is likely playing in the accuracy of this report.

 

[JoeEllison]

I'm not sure which policies and theories you are referring to.

I have no doubt the story could have happened. Sadly, there are plenty of incompetent teachers. But I find it very troublesome that most of us recognize the unreliability of the news media and their penchant for writing about outrage and controversy whether it exists or not, yet there appears to be an almost complete failure here to recognize the role that is likely playing in the accuracy of this report.

Troublesome, perhaps, but not unexpected. There has been a concerted effort over the past few decades to attack the legitimacy of public education, and education in general. This story doesn't have to be factual, because it fits so neatly into the framework of what many have been conditioned to accept as "true"... or, more accurately, containing truthiness.

 

[rwguinn]

I'm not sure which policies and theories you are referring to.

I have no doubt the story could have happened. Sadly, there are plenty of incompetent teachers. But I find it very troublesome that most of us recognize the unreliability of the news media and their penchant for writing about outrage and controversy whether it exists or not, yet there appears to be an almost complete failure here to recognize the role that is likely playing in the accuracy of this report.

I thought that that was what I was saying...

my apologies

 

[Darth Rotor]

I think your quote code is misplaced but thanks for the compliment. I just don't understand why my comments are having such a little impact on the continued assumptions here the teacher must have done exactly what the 5 yr old and emotional mother said the teacher did.

Witch trials come to mind.

On my screen, it shows

Originally Posted by skeptigirl
Two fine posts.

I added the words "two fine posts" as a substitute for all of the text in your two fine posts. Maybe I should have used italics or something to indicate that better, or more clearly. Sorry if it confuses anyone. Again, the tip of the cap was well earned.

I don't think so much witch hunt as "zero defects/knee jerk" attitude that's easy to adopt on the internet, but maybe witch hunt/pitchfork and torch mob/tar and feather mentality is the common theme.

DR

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

All you need do in that case DR is [bracket] the non-quoted insertion. But no apology needed.

The witch hunt comment comes from my reading of the gazillion comments on this case across the Net as much as from any comments here. There was even a "sign the petition to fire the teacher" out there. It was really sad.

 

[CFLarsen]

I'm sorry folks but after reading pages of people across the country in blogs and blog replies and here in this forum, I cannot believe the mob mentality attacking this teacher. You have a parent on a mission, a 5 year old's version of events and a teacher who is forbidden to defend herself because her employer told her not to discuss it.

Yet people are convinced they know what occurred, they know the facts, they know the teacher was abusive, incompetent, yadda yadda yadda. And all from a couple news stories. Shame on all of you. Having an opinion qualified by, "if this is what happened" is fine. That's appropriate. But just outright condemning this teacher on the basis of a pissed off parent's reaction to a 5 year old's account and perhaps an inadequate explanation by the school is really really sad.

Shame on all of you condemning this teacher.

Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I hadn't just skimmed through literally 500 comments by people on this story, but after reading them I am disgusted. This is a news story for crying out loud. You weren't there. You don't know the facts. You only know the tentative story.

And you are in the exact same position.

What do you expect? We have the reports, and that's what we go with. We can't do anything else, and as long as we recognize it, it is perfectly skeptical.

When do you ever have the full story on something?

And consider this is a 5 year old just now being tested. That is very late for testing for autism. It suggests a parent who perhaps didn't think their child's behavior was a problem until the school let her know. Parents need training we don't give them routinely. I imagine we have all seen the parent who appears incompetent or unconcerned about the behavior of their unruly children. Teachers in kindergarten are at the gateway that these kids first enter the system if they haven't been in preschool. That means the teacher may be the first person to expect a child to behave. That is a difficult position.

Do you see any problems with the teacher letting the other pupils voting someone out of the class?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Really, mediocre? Got any data on that?

She should move here, the pay isn't bad.

When I was at uni (in Australia) an education degree had about the lowest entry requirements and the least challenging workload of any university subject, and by and large the education students were people who had only barely made it into university.

There are always exceptions, but the system did channel the mediocre into teaching and did nothing to make them less mediocre before they were unleashed on the students.

 

[David Wong]

Wait wait. It's the law in WA? I'm suddendly glad the majority of my schooling was in NC.

Least Restrictive Environment is federal law (look up IDEA) and for good reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_Restrictive_Environment

It means you give the kid the most normal classroom experience possible. So if it's between keeping the kid in the classroom with an aide, and sticking him in a separate room with three other kids with completely different disorders, you put him in the classroom with an aid. That way he still get to interact with the other students and gets the same curriculum.

 

[David Wong]

When I was at uni (in Australia) an education degree had about the lowest entry requirements and the least challenging workload of any university subject, and by and large the education students were people who had only barely made it into university.

There are always exceptions, but the system did channel the mediocre into teaching and did nothing to make them less mediocre before they were unleashed on the students.

Correct, here in the USA many people switch to an education degree because it simply is the easiest to get. The test scores among those with that degree are among the lowest of any major. It's a very low paying job and most qualified people who choose to do it are doing it at a personal financial cost (meaning they could have gotten a much higher salary by going into a different field).

 

[Dancing David]

When I was at uni (in Australia) an education degree had about the lowest entry requirements and the least challenging workload of any university subject, and by and large the education students were people who had only barely made it into university.

There are always exceptions, but the system did channel the mediocre into teaching and did nothing to make them less mediocre before they were unleashed on the students.

Well that is a case but as someone who works in schools I feel different.

People who teach have to go to college, does that mean they are ignorant? If they have a lower requirement does that mean they are stupid?

I ask that because of the market effect:

If you are viewed as a high income/prestige career then you can set higher standards, say the computer science and lawyer route. They have more applicants and so they set the bar higher.

So if education (especially in the US is a low prestige profession) and they have few applicants then the entrance will fall.

Does that really mean that people who go into education are mediocre, or that there are fewer applicants to education programs?

Most of the teachers I work with are very competent.

People who think teaching is not a skilled profession need to go to a school and try to work in one. The main ability is the classroom management, there is a fine line between enforcing discipline and ignoring the inconsequential. Then there is the issue of disparity between students, biologically 15% of students have a low IQ but not so low they get special services, you still have to teach them too.
Then there are the learning disabilities, I am sort of intelligent but I have big time dyslexia both dysphonetic and dysediect. The schools I went to taught phonetic reading, so I did learn to read until my mother spent eight months tutoring me, she had a hard time however, I can not sound out words, period. I have to memorize the spelling of all words.
There are also the kids whose lives do no support behavior that is conducive to learning.
Many children who enter kindergarten are not ready for it, they lack social skills and the preschool skills.

Good teachers have to teach them all.

 

[Dancing David]

Pay is not always that low, $35,000/year to start in my distrct.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And you are in the exact same position.

No, Claus. My position is these people are in no position to judge this teacher. Yet they feel the need to gather petition signatures to have her fired. They don't know dick about the real facts yet they judge. That is evidence by their personal words and deeds.

What do you expect? We have the reports, and that's what we go with. We can't do anything else, and as long as we recognize it, it is perfectly skeptical.

Did you miss this comment I made: "Having an opinion qualified by, "if this is what happened" is fine"? I even bolded it. I don't read that qualification in the majority of the opinions expressed in this thread. That is what I have commented on.

When do you ever have the full story on something?

Not relevant. You don't have the full story here, none of us do.

Do you see any problems with the teacher letting the other pupils voting someone out of the class?

I can see a number of plausible ways it might have been handled given the facts we have to go by. I find the teacher's explanation as we read it, to be consistent with handling this properly. In other words, I need more information. From what I read the scenario is not clear enough to say exactly what occurred. Having child A tell child B how child B's behavior affected child A is a well known means of facilitating communication.

Instead of saying to someone, "you did this", or, "you are that", you have the person change to an "I" message, "When you do X, I feel Y"

Using I messages

“I” Messages are a great way to share your feelings without blame. When parents use “I” Messages with their children, they teach children that other people have feelings, too, and they model an effective way for children to express their feelings.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wait wait. It's the law in WA? I'm suddendly glad the majority of my schooling was in NC.

Are you sure?


Findlaw

The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld a lower court ruling requiring the City of New York to pay for the private school tuition of disabled students. The 2006 decision by the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that, regardless of whether parents of disabled children avail themselves of the public school system first, the New York City school system must pay the disabled students' private school costs. According to the New York Times, "the case has been closely watched by educators. Almost seven million students nationwide receive special-education services, with 71,000 educated in private schools at public expense, according to the federal Education Department. Usually, districts agree to pay for those services after conceding that they cannot provide suitable ones."

Findlaw

On Monday, the U.S. Supreme Court issued an opinion on the obligations of parents seeking to enforce the educational rights of their special needs children. The Court ruled that parents do not need to hire a lawyer in order to sue a school district under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), declaring that "ecause parents enjoy rights under IDEA, they are entitled to prosecute IDEA claims on their own behalf," without having to hire a lawyer. Under the IDEA, special needs students are entitled to a "free appropriate public education" under the terms of an "individualized education program" (IEP) that is developed by the parents, school officials, and others.

Findlaw

On Monday, the U.S. Supreme Court issued an opinion on the obligations of parents seeking to enforce the educational rights of their special needs children. The Court ruled that parents do not need to hire a lawyer in order to sue a school district under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), declaring that "ecause parents enjoy rights under IDEA, they are entitled to prosecute IDEA claims on their own behalf," without having to hire a lawyer. Under the IDEA, special needs students are entitled to a "free appropriate public education" under the terms of an "individualized education program" (IEP) that is developed by the parents, school officials, and others

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Well that is a case but as someone who works in schools I feel different.

People who teach have to go to college, does that mean they are ignorant? If they have a lower requirement does that mean they are stupid?

I ask that because of the market effect:

If you are viewed as a high income/prestige career then you can set higher standards, say the computer science and lawyer route. They have more applicants and so they set the bar higher.

So if education (especially in the US is a low prestige profession) and they have few applicants then the entrance will fall.

Does that really mean that people who go into education are mediocre, or that there are fewer applicants to education programs?

To some extent it does. Some students who, bluntly, just aren't that bright or studious, will be forced into doing Education because all of the things they would rather do have already been taken by the smarter and/or harder working students. They will pass Education because the bar is set low, and the bar is set low because otherwise too many Education-caliber students would fail.

Of course this also means that anyone relatively bright and dedicated (by undergrad standards) who wants to get into teaching will have no difficulty doing so.

Most of the teachers I work with are very competent.

How bright and competent are they compared to the average graduate of science, law, medicine or engineering?

People who think teaching is not a skilled profession need to go to a school and try to work in one...

While the classroom management skills you are talking about are undoubtedly both valuable and hard-won they aren't rocket science either.

Please bear in mind I'm not trying to say that teachers are bad people, or dumb, or that they don't do a job which is absolutely necessary, or anything like that. Just that as a matter of objective fact in our current society the existing systems tend to channel less talented tertiary students into teaching careers.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

so.. now I'm confused.

Are students supposed to be with classes or without? Because I can't follow the drift of skeptigirl's post