Merged Teacher leads kindergarten class to vote boy with Asperger's out of class

[Safe-Keeper]

I have an Aspergers kid in my class and he can be irritating, but kicking him out of class? Nevah.

Having experienced many a parent of a disabled child insist their child be managed in public school classrooms ill equipped to manage some of these children simply because the law says the parent can insist on an education, I know that some parents have a very distorted view of the world and of their children. It may be this was simply giving the child a time out for disruptive behavior. I don't think involving the other children is wise, but again, I'd like to hear from the teacher before passing judgment.

There's also the stigma against special schools and special education programs, I'd imagine?

 

[billydkid]

Public school teachers (in the USA sense) have never been the cream of the crop of humanity generally. There are certainly some who actually are and who do this work out of love and for all the right reasons, but many if not most end up in this job specifically because of their mediocrity. It is, to a large extent, a thankless chore with little upside except for those who find gratification in helping others improve themselves. My sister actually is an elementary school teacher and much beloved by her kids. The come visit her and send her gifts years after they have left school and gone on to live their lives. Her whole trick is to love them. Sadly, she makes little money and has fairly poor benefits so she has done it only out of love for all of these years.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Having experienced many a parent of a disabled child insist their child be managed in public school classrooms ill equipped to manage some of these children simply because the law says the parent can insist on an education, I know that some parents have a very distorted view of the world and of their children.

Out of interest, given that the law requires that the school educate the child and that this implies that it has a duty of care to provide an appropriate enviroment in which to do this, what do you suggest parents should do when a school simply refuses to provide that environment, then uses it as a pretext for denying their child the education s/he is legally entitled to? Who, exactly, has a very distorted view of the world here?

Dave

 

[ponderingturtle]

What, you don't think a teacher should be fired based on a story a 5 year old told his mom?

I do believe those of us who have ever investigated some story our child told us about something like this have found out the child's version was not very objective. Unfortunately some parents don't understand that and think kids are good at describing events.

I would say there is one thing we can conclude from this, the school probably didn't handle the mom's concerns very well.

Children of that age don't know how to lie, my niece says it was the dog who cut her hair, and I believe her.

 

[Nankay]

Because the article says the boy is "believed" to have Aspergers tells me he has not been properly observed, diagnosed, or had a behavioural/educational plan set in to place. My daughter (13) has Asperger's which was officially diagnosed when she was 5. She has an aide in the class to keep her on task, she goes to "friendship" groups to help her navigate social norms/cues, and she has a written contract..also known as an IEP (individualized education plan) that sets out what her goals are, what is expected, consequences, what "works" etc.

Without that IEP in place, the teachers would be out a useful tool. I suspect the teacher was without such guidance, was at the end of her rope and felt totally alone in this. She may not have a clue was Aspergers is or what to do with one in the classroom. She was wrong in her actions, but I have to cut her some slack if there was no plan in place.

 

[Billdave2]

Here is another very similar case:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=4945581&page=1
In this case the parents put a tape recorder in the boys cargo pants and caught the teacher saying some pretty horrible things. I can see two sides to this story also. The parents here sound like they are out to sue the school, and the kid does apparantly act out some. On the other hand the things the teacher said were pretty terrible.

My wife sees a lot of kids with developmental delays (she is a case manager for a genetics research facility) and I know that there are very wide ranges of how these kids can act and many should have no problems in a program as long as reasonable measures are taken.. I also know that many parents just can't see just how bad there kid really is. We had a case in our area a few years back where and autistic boy was swimming at the Y at the same time a senior citizens water aerobics class was taking place. Depending on which side of the story you believe, either the boy swam over to on of the men in the class (who happens to be a retired state senator) and kicked him in the privates and tried to bite him and the man pushed him away, or, the boy was minding his on business and the man went over and tried to drown the kid. Mom says her son is not violent at all and it was an unprovoked attack. The boy in question just happened to have been in the Kindergarten class one of my wife's friends teachs. She told us the kid kicks and bites all the time and that he even once caught a cat and was swinging it by its tail. There was of coarse a big stink made and an ensuing lawsuit.

 

[Damien Evans]

This is a failure of the adults in this child's life, parent and educators. Most people know by now that kids with Autism spectrum do not get social clues. Telling them that their actions make others sad, happy, angry, etc. are not going to mean anything, especially to a 5 year old. I question what school system and parent allows a child with this diagnosis into a regular classroom without supports.

Hell, I'm 20 and I still haven't quite got it right.

 

[Spindrift]

Public school teachers (in the USA sense) have never been the cream of the crop of humanity generally. There are certainly some who actually are and who do this work out of love and for all the right reasons, but many if not most end up in this job specifically because of their mediocrity. It is, to a large extent, a thankless chore with little upside except for those who find gratification in helping others improve themselves. My sister actually is an elementary school teacher and much beloved by her kids. The come visit her and send her gifts years after they have left school and gone on to live their lives. Her whole trick is to love them. Sadly, she makes little money and has fairly poor benefits so she has done it only out of love for all of these years.

I know a lot of teachers and deal with them quite a bit. In my experience the ones who think it's a "thankless chore" are definitely in the minority.

 

[Dancing David]

Public school teachers (in the USA sense) have never been the cream of the crop of humanity generally. There are certainly some who actually are and who do this work out of love and for all the right reasons, but many if not most end up in this job specifically because of their mediocrity. It is, to a large extent, a thankless chore with little upside except for those who find gratification in helping others improve themselves. My sister actually is an elementary school teacher and much beloved by her kids. The come visit her and send her gifts years after they have left school and gone on to live their lives. Her whole trick is to love them. Sadly, she makes little money and has fairly poor benefits so she has done it only out of love for all of these years.

Really, mediocre? Got any data on that?

She should move here, the pay isn't bad.

 

[King of the Americas]

At the age of 5, I could say and write the alphabet, cut out a semi-circle, eat glue, and pick my nose. I think the only thing I could reasonably 'be expected to 'vote' for is a cupcake or more recess

I was scarcily aware of my classmates, all except for "Lisa". She sat across from me, and occasionaly she didn't wear panties. Not that she was slutty, just a little forgetful, I think.

I didn't know why at the time, but I remember constantly looking under the table, when she wore a dress or a skirt, to possible see "her's". Eventually the gig was up, when I told 'one' friend, and later that day the entire side boy's die of the table was huddled around me taking turns looking under the table.

Now, I really doubt it, if our teacher had put it to a vote, that we oust "Lisa" from the class, that any of my fellow peepers would have voted in the affirmative.

If such a vote HAD been put to us, someone-probably me, would have instead voted for cupcakes or more recess. And then the rest would have followed.

Kindergarden was half a day, with 3 recess breaks. We colored, cut and pasted stuff together, and used our "Big Chief" writing tablets to practice our letters and numbers.

We didn't even get to choose who'd be team captians at recess. I find it difficult to believe that a certified teacher would allow her class of 5 year olds to vote to remove another student for even a day...

That said, I am really sick of teachers' lack of second chances. If a police officer can mistakenly shoot and kill the wrong person, and remain on the force...why not give THIS teracher a smack across the back of her head, and let her go back to work.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Our educations systems is totally f'd when it comes to actually educating kids. I've run into this attitude over and over (and in fact it's the law in WA state) that you MUST place kids in the least restrictive environment in which they can function. In the cases I saw this meant that some kids have their own personal assistant that follows them from class to class. Not only is the entire doctrine ridiculous we should be tracking more kids earlier on into classes that are as hard as possible for them so as to push them to learn as quickly as possible and become productive citizens.

Any teachers here that think we should be tracking our kids more? From my experience the educational establishment teaches against this.

 

[JoeEllison]

I wonder, also, what time of day it was when the child acted up, and was not allowed to rejoin the class. Was it first thing in the morning, or last thing in the afternoon?

 

[pgwenthold]

Here is another very similar case:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=4945581&page=1

Actually, that sounds a lot like the nun I had in second grade. One thing I tell my TAs, the most important thing I learned from Catholic school is that hitting and humiliation are not good methods for teaching penmanship.

 

[Darth Rotor]

This teacher shouldn't be fired; she should be trained in how to do the job she's been asked to do, and supported in doing it.

Aye.

Somewhere behind all this, though, there is someone in administration who believes that it's okay to dump children with ASDs in a regular classroom setting without adequate support for them or the teacher, and that person is the one who should be sacked, because he or she is simply incompetent to let this have ever happened in the first place.

Will all of the torch and pitchfork bearers please consider Dave as understanding this case a bit better than most?

DR

 

[Mobyseven]

I do feel I should point out that with all the good comments about how to deal with autism, the boy wasn't diagnosed with Aspergers until the week after this incident took place.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Our educations systems is totally f'd when it comes to actually educating kids. I've run into this attitude over and over (and in fact it's the law in WA state) that you MUST place kids in the least restrictive environment in which they can function. In the cases I saw this meant that some kids have their own personal assistant that follows them from class to class. Not only is the entire doctrine ridiculous we should be tracking more kids earlier on into classes that are as hard as possible for them so as to push them to learn as quickly as possible and become productive citizens.

Any teachers here that think we should be tracking our kids more? From my experience the educational establishment teaches against this.

Wait wait. It's the law in WA? I'm suddendly glad the majority of my schooling was in NC.

 

[ponderingturtle]

This teacher shouldn't be fired; she should be trained in how to do the job she's been asked to do, and supported in doing it.

So incompetence and not demonstrating competence expected of your certification should not be fireing offenses?

What is the point of teaching certifications if you have the school district have all this training for them?

 

[luchog]

So, I read the article in post 4 that gives the teacher's side of the story, and I have to say that I'm still of the opinion she should be canned. Learning-disabled or not, publicly humiliating a child is not an appropriate response to any disruption, regardless. If the boy was disruptive, there are far more apropriate ways to handle such situations.

If the boy has an actual neurological problem, then is a class like this the best place for him? Should he not have special teaching of some sort?

It's extremely important for autistic spectrum children to be able to interact with their peers, and not isolated in "special needs". That's part of the "special teaching" necessary for autistic spectrum disorders. They have a difficult time with social cues, and it takes far longer for them to learn how to socialize well with others. Institutionalizing them, or shutting them away in a "retard ghetto" is not the answer.

And is this teacher expected to be able to decide whether he has such problems, or whether he is just badly behaved and disruptive?

The school had already been informed that the child was being tested for Aspergers.

In any case, there are only three reasons that a child would be badly behaved and disruptive in the classroom: bad parenting, bad teaching, an actual neurological disorder. The last has been medically diagnosed. The first may or may not be accurate; but the second has been amply demonstrated by this incident. Even if it's just a bad parenting issue, humiliating a child who already has a lot of trouble at home isn't what I'd call reasonable or proper either.

I don't know how common autism actually is, but I do seem to see a tendency- especially in the US- to assume that badly behaved kids have a problem, whereas it may be more valid to assume that they ARE a problem.

A teacher has a class to handle. If one child disrupts the class, whether because he is mentally ill or just badly behaved, what recourse DOES that teacher have to enable him/her to do his duty for the rest of the class?

This is a problem with our whole school system structure. But regardless, there were far better ways to deal with this situation than the one she chose.

This "vote" seems an odd way to try to get across to the kid that he was upsetting his classmates, but in my day, the kid would have been physically punished, or expelled. (At least if he was a little older- kindergartens were rare when I was a kid).

Maybe the teacher's approach makes more sense than it might seem.
We seem quick to blame the teacher, not the child, or the child's parents. Perhaps the teacher needs more support here? She's damned if she disciplines the kid, damned if she lets the other kids do it and damned if she lets him spoil the class. She can't win.

In what way could publically humiliating a child by having him get up in front of a classroom and listen as every other child in class tells him what's wrong with him possibly be a valid disciplinary act? You don't do that to normal kids, let alone disabled ones.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Shouldn't such a child be in a special education class? Why should the rest of the children suffer because of one disruptive child?

In what way could publically humiliating a child by having him get up in front of a classroom and listen as every other child in class tells him what's wrong with him possibly be a valid disciplinary act?

In what way is it wrong?

 

[dudalb]

That teacher should have her butt canned, like yesterday.
Even if the child would have been better off in a Special Ed class..which I think is the case... ,this was an incredibly stupid way of handling it.