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Hopsicker calls for more investigative journalists

I got somebody who doesn't have an idea in his/her head about an organizational approach to verifying Hopsicker's research - and I do mean all or most of it, not a tiny fraction - and is trying to derail this thread.

I've also got cockroaches, which are now 'in season', and which I find are quite vulnerable to Formula 409 on a 1-off basis, though it doesn't seem to affect their nesting place.

Thread-derailers, cockroach colonies with inexhaustible reproductive capabilities, the excitement never ends!

Look, you miserable gasbag, why is it up to us to verify Hopsicker's idiocies? That's not our problem. If you want us to take his rantings seriously, YOU go verify it. That's my plan -- you make the claims, you provide the verification.

boloboffin: not a cockroach and not your research monkey.
 
Stop bickering and keep it civil please.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
investigative journalism died a while ago.
we have centralized "news" outlets.....
the rest is entertainment.
 
Look, you miserable gasbag, why is it up to us to verify Hopsicker's idiocies? That's not our problem.

If, by "us", you mean the debunking community, you're absolutely right - it's not up to "us" to verify Hopsicker. However, the title of this thread is not "A plea to debunk Hopsicker", it's "Hopsicker calls for more investigative journalists".

Furthermore, I agree with Hopsicker, but with a twist, and that is that the right way to do this is via crowd-funding, by the many, of a few investigative reporters. Although it may not be clear, these investigative reporters would have to go to Florida and Germany, and start knocking on the doors of anybody associated with Mohammed Atta, or who knew about him. For starters. If you find suspicious connections, such as with a "protected" international drug smuggling operation, you then proceed to investigate the connections of the connections. The last group of people I expect to be part of the crowd that could crowd-fund such investigations are the debunkers. The group of people who should be providing the funding is the 911 Truth community (given the on-going failure of government, main stream media, and alternative media to perform their civic duty).

So, when I say "the many", it doesn't mean a group including you. While there's an implicit knock against debunkers when I wrote
This appears to present no problem for the debunker community, who are content to point to Hopsicker's errors and say, essentially, "nothing more to see here'.
, the group that I'm mostly criticizing - by far - is the 911 Truth community. There's nothing ambiguous about
it's one of the great failings of the 911 Truth Movement not to have corroborated and/or disconfirmed Hopsicker's findings.
Correct? And when I said "failings", I meant "failings".

If you want us to take his rantings seriously, YOU go verify it. That's my plan -- you make the claims, you provide the verification.
And who cares if you take his claims seriously?

For that matter, I care far less about whether the 911 truth community takes Hopsicker's claim seriously than I care about whether they will EVER seriously attempt to corroborate his claims. The former is not likely to make a fig of difference in getting a serious official re-investigation being undertaken, while continuing to fail in doing the latter underscores how misguided, unorganized, and wasteful 911 activism has been.

boloboffin: not a cockroach and not your research monkey.
Now tell us if you suffer from a persecution complex.
 
investigative journalism died a while ago.
we have centralized "news" outlets.....
the rest is entertainment.

Of course, it didn't die completely. There's Gary Null, Seymour Hersch, Greg Palast, ....

One response to problems is sitting around, crying into your beer. Another response is to try and change things. Are you in either of these camps?

Last night I participated in a conference call with Progressive Democrats of America, focusing on getting single payer health care here in the US. The positive energy, even excitement, of the participants was just wonderful. Maybe I'm prejudiced, since I don't like beer very much, but I prefer to leave the 'crying into the beer' stuff to other people.

:)
 
Of course, it didn't die completely. There's Gary Null, Seymour Hersch, Greg Palast, ....

One response to problems is sitting around, crying into your beer. Another response is to try and change things. Are you in either of these camps?

Last night I participated in a conference call with Progressive Democrats of America, focusing on getting single payer health care here in the US. The positive energy, even excitement, of the participants was just wonderful. Maybe I'm prejudiced, since I don't like beer very much, but I prefer to leave the 'crying into the beer' stuff to other people.

:)

Metamars, I'm curious to know your feelings of truthers who implicate journalists in the 9/11 coverup. You do realize why people that are being accused of murdering over 3000 people are a little hestitant to help you out?
 
The issue of the decadent lifestyles apparently led by Atta et al is the subject of an excellent page at 911myths:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Atta%2C_alcohol%2C_strip_clubs_and_drugs

In particular, see the fascinating section and links on Al Takfir wal Hijra and the ability of extremist Muslims to religiously justify using alcohol, eating pork, having extra-marital sex, using drugs and alcohol, etc. while at the same being fully committed to Jihadism.
 
Of course, it didn't die completely. There's Gary Null, Seymour Hersch, Greg Palast, ....

One response to problems is sitting around, crying into your beer. Another response is to try and change things. Are you in either of these camps?

Last night I participated in a conference call with Progressive Democrats of America, focusing on getting single payer health care here in the US. The positive energy, even excitement, of the participants was just wonderful. Maybe I'm prejudiced, since I don't like beer very much, but I prefer to leave the 'crying into the beer' stuff to other people.

:)

i dont like beer either :)

but ouch, that was a full hit :)
im a melancholic

but Palast is good indeed.
 
The issue of the decadent lifestyles apparently led by Atta et al is the subject of an excellent page at 911myths:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Atta%2C_alcohol%2C_strip_clubs_and_drugs

In particular, see the fascinating section and links on Al Takfir wal Hijra and the ability of extremist Muslims to religiously justify using alcohol, eating pork, having extra-marital sex, using drugs and alcohol, etc. while at the same being fully committed to Jihadism.

'Truthers' prefer stereotypes (is that itself a stereotype? :D) you know "arabs in caves" and all that stuff.

And, of course, in the 'truther' universe it should be easy to spot radical islamic terrorists should such people exist because they will be riding into airports on the backs of camels, dressed in their desert finery, carrying ceremonial daggers and crying "allah is great" (they'll cry it in english because subtitles aren't available in real life, even 'truthers' know that), rather than being really sneaky and scarey and adopting western clothing and manners and, allah forbid, even inbibing a bevvy or two.

ETA: I should just add that a REAL investigative journalist, Peter Taylor, confirms the facts stated in Edmund Standing's post.
 
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The issue of the decadent lifestyles apparently led by Atta et al is the subject of an excellent page at 911myths:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Atta%2C_alcohol%2C_strip_clubs_and_drugs

In particular, see the fascinating section and links on Al Takfir wal Hijra and the ability of extremist Muslims to religiously justify using alcohol, eating pork, having extra-marital sex, using drugs and alcohol, etc. while at the same being fully committed to Jihadism.

The other thing to keep in mind here is that strippers and nightclub owners are not exactly the most reliable witnesses.
 
Everyone check out the beginning of the first video. Nice to see that Jackman of SST911 is showing the proper gravitas for an event concerning the alleged murder of thousands of Americans by their own government.

1. It was Michele Little, a family member who asked Mike and Eric to do that.
2. Oh yeah, and pictures of Mark Roberts drunk at the after party of the Amazing Meeting are so much better.
 
1. It was Michele Little, a family member who asked Mike and Eric to do that.
2. Oh yeah, and pictures of Mark Roberts drunk at the after party of the Amazing Meeting are so much better.

I see the point has blown right over your head. Try to read for comprehension some time. A trait you'll need in your adult life.
 
Metamars, I'm curious to know your feelings of truthers who implicate journalists in the 9/11 coverup. You do realize why people that are being accused of murdering over 3000 people are a little hestitant to help you out?

Obviously, any journalist who doesn't agree with the accusation will be outraged, regardless of what they believe really went down on 911. That's not contradictory - a journalist may suspect MIHOP, e.g., but knows his/her boss would never countenance them spending their time on this, spike any stories suggesting MIHOP, and maybe get fired, in the end, just for trying. Of course, if the journalist believes Condoleeza Rice's lie that "I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon; that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile." - in other words, not mega-OOPS, but just OOPS - then they will be even more incensed.

Rather more likely, I believe, is that journalists will internalize the values of their professional environment, as described by Noam Chomsky in Necessary Illusions - Thought Control in Democratic Societies. See pp. 10 - 12, where Chomsky describes journalists often meeting very high standards, the problem being "choice of topics and highlighting of issues, the range of opinion permitted expression, the unquestioned premises that guide reporting and commentary, and the general framework imposed for the presentation of a certain view of the world".

Oh, the irony of Chomsky not applying such an analysis to 911 matters. Why bother, since, according to Chomsky, the issues raised by 911 Truthers is based on "rumors"! (Implying that there's nothing more.) But I digress.

Such a properly indoctrinated journalist is also likely to be outraged, since they will treat the very premise as a total lie.

William Pepper reported that reporters he talked to regarding the MLK trial frankly told him that they wouldn't report the full truth because it would "cost them their jobs". So, considering how many journalists there are and different media outlets, it's also got to be the case that there are LIHOP'ers and MIHOP'ers amongst them, but they are keeping their mouths shut, for fear of losing their jobs. If you told a journalist such as this that they are helping to cover up a mass murder, they may agree with you, and then (correctly) point out that there's not a lot that they can do about it, unless they're willing to risk their job, and they likely would never get printed before they got the axe, anyway.

In short, the answer depends on the journalist, but even enumerating likely cases give no cause for believing that 911 Truther's are helping their case by making such accusations. I suppose you might find an occasional journalist who is not indoctrinated, believes in either LIHOP or MIHOP, is willing to suffer the consequences of bucking the system (which will be painful, financially and professionally), but plunges in, despite everything. You know, prodded by a 911 Truther who's shamed them by accusations of participating in a coverup.

A question: How long will such a journalist last? If they're financially like most Americans, probably not too long. Which is one reason that I am calling for crowd-funding of investigative journalists. Any activist notion which ignores financial realities is shooting itself in the foot.

Another problem is access. Evidence is often held by the (corrupt) government. Even journalists in the system can't get access. Who in their right mind thinks that the Pentagon, e.g., will turn over it's videos of whatever hit it to an independent journalist, and not turn it over to the NY Times? Even our hypothetical, completely ethical, non-indoctrinated journalist will not have a free run of evidence, even if he/she should win the Lotto and not have to worry about feeding his/her family.

So, the greatest opportunity lies in something like the gumshoe work of a Daniel Hopsicker. The government can hide evidence, but hiding people is another matter. I think Hopsicker has claimed that the names of the German couple who helped Atta get to Germany have still not been made public.* I find it hard to believe that gumshoe work cannot ferret out this information, as well as additional information about their associates.

A far more interesting question would regard completely independent journalists who are not beholden to power, and financially completely independent. Two that I can think of are Greg Palast (I don't think he draws a salary, anymore, from a UK paper, but I'm not really sure) and Gary Null.

Greg Palast, AFAIK, just believe in OOPS, and has called Professor Jones a "fruitcake". Gary Null, OTOH, has stated on air (IIRC) that the air defence response was so poor that it had to have been tampered with, and he did have Mike Ruppert on as a guest. I don't know what his position is, nowadays, and I don't think he's done any original investigative reporting on the subject, like Daniel Hopsicker. Considering all of the big players and corruption that Gary Null regularly takes on, it would be absurd to accuse him of helping in a coverup. E.g., he once had a series of 1 hour radio programs, consisting about roughly 50 segments, on the JFK assassination. As he puts it, "there is so much evidence of a conspiracy that you could drive a truck through it". Definitely not your knee-jerk conspiracy-denier.... So, the right question to put to Gary Null is probably "if you haven't done any investigative reporting into the 911 conspiracy, what are you waiting for?"

OTOH, if you told Palast that he was helping in a coverup, he'd probably call you a fruitcake. :)

* I'm embarrassed to say I've forgotten, already, but don't want to check it out, right now.
 
This sounds like the OP is asking for a fund raiser for truth. I suspect there is a paypal account already set up.
 
investigative journalism died a while ago.
we have centralized "news" outlets.....
the rest is entertainment.

Only 20 years ago all we had were 3 TV networks (ABC, NBC, CBS), the wire services (UPI and AP), the local radio and TV stations and the Newspapers. Now, in addition, there are multiple cable TV news stations, satellite radio news stations and hundreds (if not thousands) of journalistic blogs and websites on the internet.
I'm not sure that qualifies as "centralized news outlets".
 
Obviously, any journalist who doesn't agree with the accusation will be outraged, regardless of what they believe really went down on 911.


More accurately, any journalist who is wrongly accused of being in on an imaginary governmental conspiracy to murder thousands of innocent people will be justifiably outraged at the false accusation.


videos of whatever hit [the Pentagon]

The government can hide evidence, but hiding people is another matter.


I can't be the only one who sees the inherent contradiction in these two portions of your post. Which leads back to the oft-asked but never answered question: if it wasn't Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon, where are the passengers?
 
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This sounds like the OP is asking for a fund raiser for truth.

I'd like to see more than just a "fund raiser". I'd like to see the proper web/financial/legal infrastructure set up so that public-minded citizens would make regular contributions (say $5/month) to a fund that they could then direct into various accounts, 1 account per project. 1 project might be to fund an investigative reporter for 6 months, verifying Hopsicker in Florida. Another project might be independent study of dust samples held by Professor Jones' group. Etc. Each project would have a budget, and when the budget goal was reached, the money would be disbursed.

And I'd like to see that for many other activist activities, also, having nothing to do with 911, but still vitally important. One that comes to mind is outreach to young people in high schools and college, which would both educate and then train them to be grass roots activists for green energy and the environment.

I suspect there is a paypal account already set up.

No, there's not. And 911 Truth activists, like other activists, are paying the price in greatly diminished effectiveness. If you name your car "good intentions", but don't put any gas in it, you won't get very far.
 
I'd like to see more than just a "fund raiser". I'd like to see the proper web/financial/legal infrastructure set up so that public-minded citizens would make regular contributions (say $5/month) to a fund that they could then direct into various accounts, 1 account per project. 1 project might be to fund an investigative reporter for 6 months, verifying Hopsicker in Florida. Another project might be independent study of dust samples held by Professor Jones' group. Etc. Each project would have a budget, and when the budget goal was reached, the money would be disbursed.

And I'd like to see that for many other activist activities, also, having nothing to do with 911, but still vitally important. One that comes to mind is outreach to young people in high schools and college, which would both educate and then train them to be grass roots activists for green energy and the environment.



No, there's not. And 911 Truth activists, like other activists, are paying the price in greatly diminished effectiveness. If you name your car "good intentions", but don't put any gas in it, you won't get very far.

We are only 3 million dollars away from the TRUTH.
 
I can't be the only one who sees the inherent contradiction in these two portions of your post. Which leads back to the oft-asked but never answered question: if it wasn't Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon, where are the passengers?

The inaccessibility of Pentagon video evidence was a specific example, illustrating a general point. I'm not a no-planer.
 
The inaccessibility of Pentagon video evidence was a specific example, illustrating a general point. I'm not a no-planer.


What "specific example" and what "general point" were you attempting to illustrate? Neither is even remotely clear from your prior post.
 

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