Steel framed builing partially collapsed today

RedIbis said:
Is it nitpicking to point out the inconsequential detail that bldg is not steel framed?

I don't see in this thread where you admit you're wrong and there's very little reason to compare the two.
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Everything is nitpicking until you explain the relevance.

Concrete buildings hold up better than steel buildings in fire. Do you dispute this?
 
Here is what one of the geniuses at ATS said about the Delft fire/collapse:

theendisnear69 said:
That in no way resembles how the world trade centers collapsed. The towers collapsed into their own footprint. Like other people that is what I expected to happen to the twin towers. I did not expect them to collapse into their own footprint.
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I don't know how people could watch the WTC collapse footage and think that they towers "fell into their own footprint". In both cases peripheral debris fell "outside the footprint". And there are some striking parallels in the two collapses. For example, in both the Twin Towers and the Delft building, some peripheral debris hit the ground much faster (quasi-"free fall speed") than the progression of the collapse itself. In both cases, the collapse took quite a bit longer than the time it took for the first debris to make landfall.
 
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I'm beginning to think that the Truthers won't be satisfied until they see a completely identical collapse of a completely identically designed building.



...and then they'll just say THAT building must have been an inside job too.

I'm about ready to give up trying to satisfy their inconsistent and constantly shifting demands. They've been shown Kader, they've been shown Nasr City, they've been shown Windsor, and now they've been shown this. Yet still they persist with the "first time and history" and related claims.
 
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psikeyhackr said:
I was obviously talking about the time it takes to heat quantities of steel not dynamic vs static loading.
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No you weren't. You asked how many floors the steel on a given floor could support. I told you. Deal.



psikeyhackr said:
Dynamic loading isn't magic. Every static level overcome would still slow the mass down. Notice they don't advertise the quantity of steel and concrete on every level below the impact zone.
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What has this got to do with anything? Every "static level overcome" does indeed slow the mass down, but every "static level overcome" also adds substantial mass to the preceeding mass, and immediately after every "static level overcome" the mass gains an additional 8.8m/s-1 of velocity.

Let's pretend, for a moment, that a floor weights 1000kg.

Ten floors fall 4m to an intact floor reaching a velocity of 8.8m/s and impacting with a KE of 392 KJ. Let's say the failure of that floor exactly consumes all 392 KJ and the mass precisely slows to a velocity of zero (if the arresting capabilities of the first intact floor were greater than this the first intact floor would not fail and the collapse would stop immediately).

The new mass - 11 floors, now falls a further 4m to the next floor, again reaching a velocity of 8.8m/s, and this time having a KE of 431.2 KJ. This second impact, therefore, has exceeded the intact floors ability to arrest its descent by about 10%. Therefore this impact will not slow the descending mass to zero, meaning when the new mass of 12 floors falls a further 4m to the next intact floor it will now be travelling at more than 8.8m/s in addition to having more mass, and thus will exceed the arresting capabilities of this floor by an even greater margin. And so on.

And this is, in excruciatingly simple terms, why the collapse could not be arrested once it had passed the first intact floor.

Now, you might argue that debris was ejected from the footprint of the building, thus reducing the mass as it fell. Fair enough. However in the case of the WTC the mass that was ejected was almost exclusively perimeter columns, which are load bearing - carrying approximately 50% of the gravity load of the building, and thus representing 50% of the building's ability to arrest the collapse.

Given that steel has the property of being able to support far more load than its own weight (otherwise it would make a totally useless building product) every perimeter column that falls away from the building reduces the building's ability to arrest the collapse much more substantially than it reduces the mass contributing to the collapse.
 
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'Truther' to claim that the structure was stronger towards ground level and was designed to support the weight of all the mass above so couldn't have failed in 5....4.....3....

I've come to the conclusion that some people cannot be educated .
 
They've started cleanup and demolishing today. Pretty fast if you ask me, are they covering up the real cause of the fire and subsequent collapse? ;) It's a pity they won't demolish it with explosives, I would haved loved to see Jowenko do is his magic in action.
 
But ....but.... it's a crime scene!!

Do they know what caused it? And if they do, have they investigated every other possibility, including space beams, elves and unicorns?
 
Say what you want, these Elves are wee buggers once they get their teeth into the steelwork.....
 
uk_dave said:
But ....but.... it's a crime scene!!

Do they know what caused it? And if they do, have they investigated every other possibility, including space beams, elves and unicorns?
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The cause was a short-circuit in a coffee-maker....


[No-planers in 3...2...1.... ]
 
mrbaracuda said:
Didn't you see the squibs?

[qimg]http://b.imagehost.org/0799/squibs.jpg[/qimg]

Clearly it was an inside-job.
Oh and you might also notice the kink in the middle. And I bet some Steven Jones could find some sulphur.

Can't wait for whatever loose change would translate to in Dutch! :popcorn1
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Danny Jowenko (also dutch) did it.;)
 
Loose Change in Dutch would be something like "afval geld"
 
Phaedrus74 said:
The cause was a short-circuit in a coffee-maker....
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But, but, no coffee maker has ever caused the collapse of, or even a partial collapse of, any building in the history of ever. ;)


ETA: Heh, I probably should have read the entire thread before posting, but this was just such a 'gimme'....
 
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RedIbis said:
Is it nitpicking to point out the inconsequential detail that bldg is not steel framed?

I don't see in this thread where you admit you're wrong and there's very little reason to compare the two.
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It's hilarious that you think it would make your case stronger if it is concrete construction. It's like claiming that just because the big bad wolf blew down the wood house it couldn't have possible blew down the straw house.
 
LashL said:
But, but, no coffee maker has ever caused the collapse of, or even a partial collapse of, any building in the history of ever. ;)


ETA: Heh, I probably should have read the entire thread before posting, but this was just such a 'gimme'....
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Well it was offered as a springboard for silly suggestions :D

I don't know if it's been mentioned but despite initial fears that the collection of (amongst others) Corbusier and Rietveld chairs as well as the student work might have been destroyed, the library has survived!! This means that a lot of student won't have to redo their work over the holidays...
 
amazing.

first we have a crush up
and we have floor below the collapse zone that is actually arresting a collapse.
strange that JREFers think this collapse is a good point for them.

actually once again, reality is contradicting Bazant and NIST.
i think reality has still to learn alot from NIST and Bazant.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
amazing.

first we have a crush up
and we have floor below the collapse zone that is actually arresting a collapse.
strange that JREFers think this collapse is a good point for them.

actually once again, reality is contradicting Bazant and NIST.
i think reality has still to learn alot from NIST and Bazant.
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No DC, amazing is you seem to directly compare this case with the WTCs. That is amazing. And, well, I won't say it. :rolleyes:
 
Dictator Cheney said:
amazing.

first we have a crush up
and we have floor below the collapse zone that is actually arresting a collapse.
strange that JREFers think this collapse is a good point for them.

actually once again, reality is contradicting Bazant and NIST.
i think reality has still to learn alot from NIST and Bazant.
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Yeah it's that or...

They actually designed the library to take the load in such an eventuality, something that makes pretty good sense if you ask me, especially if you take into account what is taught at that particular university (structural engineering for one).
 
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