(continued)
DeiRenDopa said:
Excuse me, but ...
Lerner's paper "Galactic Model of Element Formation", which you recommended, is very clear - only H is primordial
But you said "as is required in PC - recall that
all elements other than He are primordial", which
is wrong.
Lerner has come up with a perfectly viable method to create the other elements, the ones associated with the usual 'proof' of the BB. So by comparing theories, we can see which one is the most accurate. No false dichotomies involved.
Its a similar approach to rees idea for example (
ref), an alternative is offered to the CMB that does not utilize a Big Bang, it does not require a creation event to explain it. He shows that this assumption can account for this just as accurately than the current explanation, from local stars, just like Lerner does with galaxies and stars. Another more recent paper (that cites Lerners observations {ref[24]}, page 2,) also agrees that a local creation method for CMB, which is consistent with Lerners hypothesis, and they say is far more likely (
ref). This is very similar to what Lerner is proposing with his element production method.
That may be so ...
... and it suffers the same fatal confrontation with observation as Lerner's model of the CMB does (plus some more of its own, no doubt).
Back to whether only H is primordial or not, in the model presented in Lerner's 1989 paper ...
... snip ...
Lerners model does not treat every element other than He as primordial.
Indeed.
It treats every element other than H (hydrogen) as primordial.
It also sort of depends on what you are defining the word primordial to mean in his model, it really takes on a slightly different meaning, as there is no real 'initial' creation event like the Big Bang theory to make it that clear cut. Galaxies are essentially transient phenomenon.
OK ...
So when you finally get around to addressing my posts on Lerner's model, I hope you will address how galaxies can be "
essentially transient phenomenon", created out of pure hydrogen, create lots of He and metals, ... and leave no He or metals in the IGM (inter-galactic medium) for future generations of galaxies to form from ...
There is a universal relationship between the density of plasma in which they condensed 
and the distance (r) between condensed objects. This can be shown well over 15 orders of magnitude for mass, all the way from modern laboratory experiments to stars and galaxies. In plasma cosmology the main reason for the existence of this relationship is the role played in the process of gravitational condensation by plasma vortices which have typical ion velocities (me/mp)3/4c. The ion collision distance is 1 x 1019n-1 cm, or nr = 1 x 1019/cm2, where condensations are separated by distances r. You can otherwise state this relationship as M = 1.8n-2 where M is the mass of the condensed object in solar masses. This implies that in the early stages of galactic condensation, when the average plasma density in the galaxy was lower than at present, the average mass of the formed stars that constitute it was higher.
May I ask what the source of this, and subsequent, material (in the parts of you post I'm quoting) is?
You can use this relationship in a simplified model of star formation to determine approximately how much helium and heavy elements were created during the formation of a galaxy. This includes the creation of the elements often used to 'prove' the Big Bang. And other element observations are included too, Deuterium abundance, Oxygen abundance, carbon, and other elements can be accounted for using a cloud contracting in the axial direction in the plane of rotation by spiral radial magnetic filaments.
(emphasis added)
Were created from what?
Here's what Lerner's 1989 paper says (I added emphasis):
Here a galaxy is formed from the gravitational collapse of a filamentary or cylindrical cloud, ...
At any given instant, there are four distinct regions ...
1) In the outer disk region ... (It should be noted that we are here dealing with stars that are initially pure hydrogen ...
2) In the outer cylinder, ... , no star formation has yet taken place and the plasma there is pure hydrogen
3) In the inner cylinder, ... the pure H of region II is processed ...
4) Part of the inner cylinder ... This inner disk region forms stars [...] out of material heavily enriched by the region I massive stars.
At any given instant, B/n is a constant throughout the contracting plasma. Since the currents converge toward the center and flow out along the axis, you get B = 0.2 I/r, where I is the galactic current and r is the distance from the axis. Density, n, thus also decreases outwards from the center, with the heaviest stars forming in the least dense regions, furthest out. Incoming filaments are sufficiently numerous that in any given annulus star formation is occurring whenever previous generations of stars have released their gas to the interstellar medium or have not yet been formed. That is, stars of an appropriate mass constitute essentially all the plasma mass in each annulus, so the situation simply along a single radial slice can be considered.
For the He, we know from stellar evolution theory that the amount of helium produced for stars of various masses, varying from abut 10% for M = 12M
s, to 3% for M = 5M
s
[latex]He(M)=\left|^{tf}_{t0}F(M)M^{0.5}n_{i}0.375t_{1}L_{t}^{-1}(1-e^{\frac{Lt}{t1}})e^{\frac{t}{t1}[/latex]
where F is the fraction of mass converted to helium by stars of mass M and He(M) is the total fraction of the galactic mass converted to helium by these stars. The beginning time to is defined by the point at which the shock wave first forms, that is when V, the velocity of the plasma past the filament exceeds V
a the Alfven velocity.
Now, [latex]V_{a}=\frac{I}{10h^{0.5}n^{0.5}m^{0.5}_{p}r}[/latex] where mP is the proton mass, and I the galactic current. Studies by Beck and others (
Ref - IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science) have shown that galactic magnetic fields and currents can be related to a galaxy's mass per unit surface area, and thus to its orbital velocity. From these results, the empirical relationship I = 1.5 x 10
-4V
2G
-1 can be derived.
Using this for the Milky Way, V
2/R
m = 1.2 x 10
-8 cm/sec and n, = 0.35 (taking Mg = 2 x10
11Ms, Rm = 5 x 10
22 cm). Substituting these values into the previous relationships, and integrating over a mass range 4Ms < M < 12Ms, and solving the equations simultaneously, you get as a solution t
1 = 8 x 10
15 second (260 My) and He = 0.225, in excellent agreement with observation.
So ...
... in other words, all the He forms from H, in stars, over a period of ~260 My ...
Most significantly, since He varies inversely with V2/Rm the observed upper limits on V2/Rm, sets lower limits to He and it is these minimum He values which have given reasonably consistent figures for 'primordial' helium abundance.
For the carbon abundances, using the above relationships, Integrating this over t and M you get (with a bit more work in between);
C = (5.6 x 10-19 -1.1 x 10-19n0.5) ti
= 4 . 5 x 10-3 - 8.5 x 10 -4n0.5
= 0 .0042 OK?
This is in good agreement with observations of 0.004-0.005.
For the Oxygen abundance, using the same calculation, and adjusting the rates of production accordingly, you get a value of ~0.018. It should also be noted that He ions will be able to migrate out of the galaxies to enrich the immediate surrounding medium much more easily than the heavier elements such as carbon and oxygen. It is out of this He-enriched but heavy element poor medium that dwarf galaxies form.
Hmm ...
Galaxies form stars out of pure H, produce He, which then migrates out "to enrich the immediate surrounding medium", from which dwarf galaxies form ...
And once galaxies stop forming (the medium being used up), and stars die, the universe becomes cold and dark.
And before galaxies formed, the universe was full of pure H (and also cold and dark).
Somehow, ~13 billion years ago, a magical, once-off event occurred - galaxies began to form ... over the infinite time before then, no galaxies formed, and in the infinite time after galaxies stop forming (as they must, there's no source of new, pure H, is there?) ...?
For the Deuterium abundance, using a value of 1 Gev of energy is for each deuterium production, z of the energy goes into the production of deuterium and the current abundance should be in the area of 2 x 10
-5. There is a close linear correlation between radio power generated by galaxies and IR thermal radiation, presumably derived from young massive stars. If we take as a measure of total cosmic ray production (twice radiated power) 3 x 10
19f (1.49 GHz) (the flux at that frequency) you find that about 1.2% of thermonuclear yield is in the form of cosmic rays, which yields 20 Kev per hydrogen atom in cosmic ray energy (where the 1 Gev comes from above, which is, co-incidentally, roughly the peak value for rays from the milky way, and very close to the average for most cosmic rays (
ref))
Lerner said something similar.
However, your source doesn't seem to confirm it - can you clarify please?
....And the other elements are in various other publications....
... snip ...
In conclusion then ...
... it would seem that, according to Lerner, all elements other than H are formed during or after the formation of galaxies, and that the galaxies all form from pure H (other than some dwarf galaxies which form later).
Further, before ~13 billion years ago, there were no galaxies, just pure H.
Or, saying this a slightly different way, only H is primordial ...
(to be continued)
