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Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Just adding a little fuel to the fire:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20080512/sc_space/pieceofmissingcosmicmatterfound

There can be no doubt that what they're discussing is plasma, and it's hot, and its in filaments:

(Link in text is from original Yahoo article.)

Could it be (and I'm far, far iout on the intergalactic limb here) that this might represent a partial blending of plasma and standard cosmologies? It takes from plasma that which make sense (the intergalactic structure of the universe from PC without having to swallow the electric sun stuff, it seems to me. Tell me what y'all think.


As DeiRenDopa states this is on too big a scale for the galactic plasma filaments that are supposed to rotate galaxies in Peratt's model. The filament in the article connects galactic clusters. Peratt's model needs galactic plasma filaments that extend out from galaxies and may link galaxies together.

The results of the Millennium simulation are really cool - a computer simulation of more than 10 billion particles! Thanks DeiRenDopa for reminding me about it. If you have some spare computer capacity you can even run the simulation yourself (on a smaller scale!) - the source code is here.

Hopefully we will get a suggestion about how to detect some of the 200 billion such filaments (there are probably more than 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe) from BeAChooser or Zeuzzz.
 
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I do not expect to be treated any particular way.

Your posts evidence who you are, they have no reflection on me.


And your evidence is lacking, or like the Arp galaxy/QSO association it is based upon poor methology and procedure.

I notice you haven't even tried to defend the use of statictics by Arp et al., nor have you even tried to defend his use of statictics in his most recent paper where he goes looking for what he want and then talks about how extraordinary it is. The argument you cam up with was the infamous "But you are impuning their honesty", WHICH I DID NOT DO! I question the use of statitics and the claim of an association without a comparative control group. Which is this thing called 'the scientific method' or 'critical thinking'.

Have you found any population sampling protocols and procedures that encourage this error?

Why not respond with a critical argument? The 'you are attacking the Master' is not much of an argument.

So Jerome, your lack of evidence and your inability to articulate a critical argument is telling on you.

So how do YOU tend to account for the Hubble relationship of luminosity of Cephid vaiables being inversly proportional to their observed redshift?

If you don't like the expanding space theory, what is a good alternative?
 
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Indoctrinated belief system.

Ever notice the vile spewed and the derision tossed on those that do not follow the prescribed path? Look religion and you see the same attitude.

Ever notive how you can't provide evidence or a critical defense of your evidence?

Look to religion and you will see the same attitude.

Try responding to my critique of Arp's 'association' instead of

Neener neener and nanny nanny boo boo.
 
Hi Zeuuzzz, according to DRD and the lerner nucleosynthesis model the intertgalactic medium should contatin some pure H, I notice that you too are incapable of a critical defense.

DRD directly critiqued some of the sources you offered, and you sole response is 'wrong'.

You can't engage in a critical defense, which means what?

What is your hang up on dark matter, neutrinos sure appear to exist and they are dark matter and they are more than 'tonnes and tonnes' of them.

And what have you got for observational modeling and predictions of observation?

Apparently 'nothing' since all you can shoi us is 'wrong'.

try a critical explanation of your ideas.

Can't or won't?
 
I started a new topic. But don't even think about bringing this long running battle into it.
 
And while you're at it Jerome, see if you can dig a bit deeper and find that mysterious definition of your "redshift anomaly", will ya?

For someone that claims to be a trained college cosmology professor, not understanding the phrase "redshift anomaly" must be rather embarrassing.
 
For someone that claims to be a trained college cosmology professor, not understanding the phrase "redshift anomaly" must be rather embarrassing.
Actually I suspect that MattusMaximus wants to know if you know what the "redshift anomaly" is.

BTW: Are you using the Karlsson log(1 + z) model or Bell’s decreasing intrinsic redshift (DIR) model?
 
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This is not a plasma filament. It is a well-known filament of galaxies as shown in the sentences you sniped out.

But one does not necessarily have to see plasma for it to be there. It may not be in a mode where it "glows". It doesn't always emit radiation. The mainstream literature recently spoke of finding vast clouds of plasma in space that they hadn't previously suspected. Heck, we just recently discovered rivers of plasma coming from the sun. :D
 
But one does not necessarily have to see plasma for it to be there. It may not be in a mode where it "glows". It doesn't always emit radiation. The mainstream literature recently spoke of finding vast clouds of plasma in space that they hadn't previously suspected. Heck, we just recently discovered rivers of plasma coming from the sun. :D

I see. You are saying that all of the more than 200 billion galactic plasma filaments are invisible and so cannot be detected (there are probably 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe). That explains everything.
But it is a puzzle to me how a plasma with a current in it large enough to turn a galaxy does not produce radiation. Perhaps you can explain?
 
DeiRenDopa said:
(emphasis added).

In a word, no.

It's not pure H (as is required in PC - recall that all elements other than He are primordial).
Wrong.
Excuse me, but ...

Lerner's paper "Galactic Model of Element Formation", which you recommended, is very clear - only H is primordial
It's not anywhere near the right size for PC's plasma filaments, even with the most generous assumptions about fractal scaling (per Lerner) ... it's far too big.

The fractal scaling relationship of dimension 2, that was a key prediction of plasma cosmology, and has been independantly confirmed recently, shouldn't you say?
Er, no.

As I have already said (do you need me to cite the post numbers?), results from SDSS, 2dF, WMAP, etc are clear ... the large scale structure of the observed universe is inconsistent with a "fractal scaling relationship of dimension 2".

I would appreciate it if you could take the trouble to read the posts I write.
And its mass is far larger than that which is derived from the analysis of the x-ray observations (per the weak lensing observations, reported in an earlier paper), indicating that CDM is the dominant (mass) component.

Here is the preprint; if anyone can make a case that what Werner et al. report is consistent with PC, go for it!
How much dark matter and relitivistic dark gnomes does he need to invoke to explain this filamentary shape then?
About the same amount, proportionately (to the baryons), as is found in galaxy halos and rich clusters; and about the same as is found from analysis of CMB observations.

In other words, the results are consistent.
Do you understand how gravity works? ie, a purely attractive field?

Either there is another force at work here other than gravity on large scales, or you have to invoke tonnes of mysterious matter to enable gravity to acount for this shape.
Zeuzzz, please ...

You have made it abundantly clear that, for you, the logic of false dichotomy is acceptable in PC.

You have also, many many times, shown a pretty astonishing degree of ignorance of the relevant details of the ΛCDM models you criticise. Now parodies from the likes of JdG or ynot are perhaps understandable (they do not seem to have much of an education in textbook physics), but for you it's hard to avoid a conclusion of borderline trolling (given your admitted physics fluency).

And PC does not ignore GR, it includes GR as a vital component. Alfven wasn;t a big fan, but that was before the evidence was conclusive, so thats an acceptable position to take back then. Modern PC proponents use GR all the time.
Really?!? :jaw-dropp

I may have missed it, but none of the Lerner or Peratt papers I read - which you recommended as being the core of contemporary PC, remember - mention it at all.

Worse, Lerner's fractal scaling is meant to apply to the universe as a whole, which in turn implies that GR is unimportant to the universe as a whole ...
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There's a misunderstanding in your post anyway ... in textbook astrophysics, the baryonic component of the universe is largely plasma anyway - the ISM (inter-stellar medium) and IGM (inter-galactic medium) are plasmas (i.e. ionised gases), although some of the ISM's phases are only weakly ionised (giant molecular clouds). In particular, the IGM in rich clusters is a hot plasma (~10 million degrees), which is what is detected in the Abell 222 and Abell 223 clusters which this filament connects.

It's been known for quite some time - in standard, textbook cosmology - that the universe is composed of a network of filaments, sheets, walls, ... and that rich clusters are at the intersections of these (check out the Millennium simulation for some very cool images!) - the 'cosmic web'. This has nothing to do with PC; it's a result expected from the CDM+baryonic content of the universe and General Relativity. It has also been observed, in the way galaxies are distributed, for a while now (as far back as 1978, it seems).

What's new, in this paper, is the first direct observation of one of these filaments, as IGM, and in particular, in the deathless prose of astronomy, of the WHIM (warm-hot intergalactic medium). As the baryonic mass of galaxies in clusters is an almost trivial fraction of the total baryonic mass of those clusters (the IGM dominates), so too in the filaments (the galaxies in the filaments are a minor component, baryonic mass-wise).

Courtesy of Zeuzzz, we are to understand that PC explicitly rejects the idea of an origin for the universe, and that the large-scale structure of the universe can be accounted for only by considering the role of giant, universe-wide, currents.

"Universe wide currents?"

Your last few posts at least showed a slight comprehension of PC, what on earth happened in this one?
Huh?

In Lerner's model, the fractal scaling relationship arises from "magnetically confined filaments", and these are, courtesy of Alfvén and Peratt, current carrying.

In Lerner's model, the fractal scaling relationship is universal, ergo there are universe-wide currents ...
And be patient, there are answers to your previous "evidence against plasma cosmology" points, so i wouldn't spend too much time on other supposed problems with PC until I have addressed your previous ones. But its not going to be any time soon, as i said, the real world is beckoning at the moment
OK.

But, as I said, I'm pretty much done ... I thank you for pointing to the Lerner and Peratt papers; reading them made me realise just how little work has been done, and why (at almost every turn, quantifying something in PC turns up severe inconsistencies, either internal or with well-established observations).
 
First, RC didn't initially make the qualification "galaxy-wide". He moved the goal post after I showed that his initial statement "Can you tell us why we do not see plasma filaments extending from all galaxies? For example have a look at the Sombrero Galaxy which is edge on to us. According to Peratt's plasma model of galaxy formation there should be plasma filaments extending above and below the galaxy plane."
Indeed.

As RC subsequently clarified, and as this thread is about PC, the 'filaments' we are concerned with are those in Lerner's and Peratt's models.

From Peratt's papers, you'll see that they are quite narrow (~< 1kpc?), not straight, and very (infinitely?) long.

Second, the later source you cite does NOT say there are no faint x-ray filaments. In fact, that paper does not include the word filament anywhere in it at all. And the paper notes that "Our main interest here is in the diffuse X-ray emission from Sombrero." Maybe they didn't even go looking for filaments, DRD? The paper also states "There are considerable substructures in the inner region." I wonder what they mean by that. Could they be talking about filaments? Also note that the paper states "dips seen in the X-ray intensity distributions at certain azimuthal ranges (Figs. 7 and 8) might be the result of hot gas removal by the collimated ejecta from the AGN." Collimated ejecta? Is that another way of saying filaments? :D
Indeed.

There is a very long list of things which the paper does NOT say there are none of (garden gnomes, jet contrails, magma, Santa Claus, ...).

If you are interested, and prepared to commit to staying involved right through to the end, I might be willing to walk you through the paper, so you can see what they did and how ... and why the tentative detection of the filaments reported in the first paper (which you cited) are ruled out in the later one (which I cited).
And are you aware of this report, which also suggests the existence of filaments:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0003167 "The Sombrero galaxy, 2000 ... snip ... For these extinction levels, we indeed expect the northern filament to be barely detectable in our colour maps. ... snip ... In particular, the main support for the nuclear bar scenario comes from the presence of the straight, southern dust filament, which could actually be much further from the nucleus than we assumed (e.g. if it is outside the equatorial plane of the galaxy)."
I wasn't, thanks for citing it.

Bears no resemblance to Peratt's filaments, does it?
And finally, regarding the claime that there are "no galaxy-wide plasma filaments extending from the Sombrero Galaxy" ... are you sure?

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/321326 "The Astrophysical Journal, 554:104–113, 2001 ... snip ... The filament originates in the northern Galactic hemisphere at a conjunction of filaments near the Ursa Major and Coma I clusters, passes through small knots of galaxies in the constellations of Canes Venatici and Ursa Major, through our position, and can be followed in the southern Galactic hemisphere out to the NGC 1023 group. The thread of galaxies that makes up what has been called the Sculptor Group can be viewed as a minor fragment of the main filament. It seems this filament is paralleled by a second one that originates in the Galactic north at the Virgo Cluster, passes through a big knot including the Sombrero galaxy, then passes nearest to us at the Centaurus Group ... "

That sure sounds like a galaxy-wide filament of the sort postulated by the plasma cosmologists.
Er, no.

As RC has already pointed out, you missed some vital parts of the paper ... and in any case, these 'cosmic web' filaments are not at all like the pair of inter-galactic Birkeland currents in Peratt's model(s).
 
But one does not necessarily have to see plasma for it to be there. It may not be in a mode where it "glows". It doesn't always emit radiation.
Yeah, but ...

The Peratt filaments are composed of plasma, which includes ions. If they were backlit, they'd absorb light, and the spectrum of the distant object would have tell-tale lines in it. As far as I know, no such have ever been found (a fact I pointed out earlier).

Also, the filaments carry huge currents, which would create very obvious magnetic fields; obvious via the Faraday rotation in any polarised backlighting.

The 5-year WMAP results are now out, and one new aspect is tighter constraints on the polarisation signals.

Whether the CMB is ~13 billion light-years away (the ultimate backlight) or much closer (per Lerner), there should be a strong polarisation signal in it, due to any Peratt filaments.
The mainstream literature recently spoke of finding vast clouds of plasma in space that they hadn't previously suspected. Heck, we just recently discovered rivers of plasma coming from the sun. :D
Indeed.

But they are not filaments with the characteristics of those in Peratt's model.

By the way, may we expect you to be posting in the Arp object thread again soon? I'm keen to know if I have applied 'the BAC method' correctly ...
 
“Although there has been a theoretical model that predicted hot gas bubbles blown by just one massive star, such has not been detected until we found confirmation in the Orion Nebula,” Güdel told PhysOrg.com. “We didn't look for it - we actually found this diffuse emission by chance while looking at the many stellar x-ray point sources in the field. As previous researchers have not reported diffuse x-ray emission from such star-forming regions but were rather arguing against its presence, we were indeed surprised to find such prominent emission across large regions of the nebula.”
http://www.physorg.com/news121602545.html

Don't be an idiot. Posting links to discoveries about Plasma, in a thread titled Plasma Cosmology, is far more on topic than your rambling opinion pieces.

To help you understand this, read that again, edited for clarity.


“Although there has been a theoretical model that predicted plasma flowing from a massive star, such has not been detected until we found confirmation in the Orion Nebula,” Güdel told PhysOrg.com. “We didn't look for it - we actually found this diffuse emission by chance while looking at the many stellar x-ray point sources in the field. As previous researchers have not reported diffuse x-ray emission from such star-forming regions but were rather arguing against its presence, we were indeed surprised to find such large plasma flows across large regions of the nebula.”
 
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Also, the filaments carry huge currents, which would create very obvious magnetic fields; obvious via the Faraday rotation in any polarised backlighting.

The 5-year WMAP results are now out, and one new aspect is tighter constraints on the polarisation signals.

Whether the CMB is ~13 billion light-years away (the ultimate backlight) or much closer (per Lerner), there should be a strong polarisation signal in it, due to any Peratt filaments.
Indeed.

Wow, that is another one in the 'evidence which contradicts this theory'.

Thanks
 
http://www.physorg.com/news121602545.html

Don't be an idiot. Posting links to discoveries about Plasma, in a thread titled Plasma Cosmology, is far more on topic than your rambling opinion pieces.

To help you understand this, read that again, edited for clarity.

I think this must be your contrarian nature, since I know that you are not so stupid as to think that DRD has not cited the evidence for every 'opinion'.

Whats the matter, JdG and BAC are so weak you have to balance their ineptitude by name calling?

Weak Robinson, really weak.
 
I think this must be your contrarian nature, since I know that you are not so stupid as to think that DRD has not cited the evidence for every 'opinion'.

The Peratt filaments are composed of plasma, which includes ions. If they were backlit, they'd absorb light, and the spectrum of the distant object would have tell-tale lines in it. As far as I know, no such have ever been found (a fact I pointed out earlier).

" If they were backlit, they'd absorb light, and the spectrum of the distant object would have tell-tale lines in it"

That claim is utter nonsense, and illustrates why I take a semi humorous attitude towards people who post opinion as fact. Then try to tell me a current discovery about plasma in space is "off topic" in a topic called "Plasma Cosmology".

Trust me, humor is a better response than insults and opinion. For one thing, I never got a Mod strike for being on topic, AND being funny. Oh sure, you might not think it's funny, but somebody else is getting a laugh.

And we learned some new stuff from the link.
 

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