AE911Truth Watch

C7

You have had have had your ass handed to you big time in this thread, the time is ripe to walk away and learn from it and come back stronger with better arguments.

Ryan is a liar and a moron. If he was not, he would still have a job with his employers, would have receieved compensation and would have won his case.

When you try to defend the fools mentioned in the OP it weakens you and you make mistakes and have to eat large slices of humble pie.

Its getting embarrassing to read. Let it lie. Get back to what you do best. Bumping the 10 storey hole thread every now and again.
 
UL has a right to their opinion and the judge ruled in their favor. So be it.
I like to focus on one thing at a time. You call this cherry picking.


It is cherry picking when you take only one portion of a sentence out of context, change it, and pretend that it supports your claim (in this case, that the judge concluded that Ryan was speaking only on his own behalf) when it does not support your claim at all. Selectively picking and changing words in order to ascribe to them a meaning that they do not have, and to try to advance your unsupported position is cherry picking, and it is dishonest.


UL falsely stated that Ryan "created a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL."
*representative: someone who speaks for others

Created a misleading impression on who?
Everyone knew that Ryan's views were not the views of UL.


You cannot seriously expect to be anyone to simply accept your unsupported accusation against UL and your unsupported allegation that "everyone" knew that Ryan was not purporting to put forward his views as a representative of UL.

That might be acceptable at the twoofer sites you frequent, but it is not sufficient here among rational, critical and analytical thinkers. We prefer to look at things like facts and evidence and draw conclusions in accordance with same.


Now who's cherry picking?
I did include "our CEO and Fire Protection business manager" to show that it in no way indicated that Ryan was speaking for UL, but i left out the "they suggested "we all" because Knoblauch and Chapin saying "be patient" is irrelevant to the point.


Irrelevant? Hardly. It was entirely relevant because it reads as Ryan purporting to be writing on behalf of other members of UL and not just himself. I.e., that "our" (their) CEO and FP business manager suggested that "we all" (they) be patient. It is one of the strongest damning points against Ryan wrt the letter as it gives the distinct impression that he is referring to others ("we all") at UL.


false, as i pointed out in post 665


No, it is not false. I said that in the letter, Ryan insinuates that he is not writing as a private individual alone and that the letter as a whole gives rise to a reasonable inference that Ryan was purporting to write as a representative of UL because, from a legal standpoint, it certainly does.

The fact that your opinion may differ from mine and that of others, does not make your assertion correct or factual and it does not in any way, shape or form make what I said false. Further, your post #665 does not in any way illustrate that is it is false, as pointed out in post #666.


The over all point is:
If you are going to call Ryan a liar for misinterpreting the response from Mr. Knoblauch [exhibit C], then you must hold UL to the same standard and call them liars for misinterpreting Ryan's letter to Mr. Gayle.


I addressed this the last time you said it, and responded specifically to it in post #662. You must have missed it. Here is what I wrote:


It appears that you are conceding that Ryan has misinterpreted the cherry picked e-mail exchange that he belatedly attached to his Second Amended Complaint, and it appears that you are conceding that the conclusions he drew from it were wrong, if not deliberately dishonest. That's a start.

But you seem to be suggesting that I have called Ryan a liar for misinterpreting something, when I have done no such thing. I have not called Kevin Ryan a liar for misinterpreting the (cherry picked and grossly incomplete 'exhibit c') email exchange to which you allude. If and when I call Kevin Ryan a liar, it is because he knowingly tells lies, repeatedly (and long after the time for him to acknowledge his misinterpretation and refrain from repeating it has passed).

Further, I have seen no evidence that UL has misinterpreted Ryan's letter to NIST, nor any evidence that UL has lied about it, so your false premise is rejected.

(As an aside, don't you even wonder why Kevin Ryan cherry picked that email exchange and refused to provide it in its entirety when the whole of his case depended on it? If not, you should.)




He is a still patriot imo and unpatriotic iyo.


WTF? Patriotism has nothing at all to do with this. Moreover, please refrain from purporting to tell me what my opinion of Ryan's "patriotism" is. Doing so only makes you look foolish. Even more foolish than Ryan.


Lastly, as I said above, the evidence suggests that Ryan was fired for writing a letter from his workplace, using his work e-mail, using his work credentials that:

a) made reference to his work for UL;
b) was signed using his work title;
c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL;
d) did not represent the views of UL;
e) was not authorized by UL;
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment;
g) inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client;
h) exhibited extremely poor judgement;
i) caused harm to UL's reputation;
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client; and
k) made deceptive and misleading statements.


If you have any evidence to the contrary, now would be a good time to present it.
 
It is cherry picking when you take only one portion of a sentence out of context, change it, and pretend that it supports your claim
The cherry in question is:
UL falsely stated that Ryan "created a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL."
*representative: someone who speaks for others

Created a misleading impression on who?
Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan's views were not the views of UL.

You cannot seriously expect to be anyone to simply accept your unsupported accusation against UL and your unsupported allegation that "everyone" knew that Ryan was not purporting to put forward his views as a representative of UL.
UL stated that Ryan's letter did not represent the views of UL, so they knew. UL had been working closely with NIST, so they also knew.
Do you think Mr. Gayle was not aware of UL's views?
Do you seriously think Mr. Gayle thought Ryan was speaking for UL?
Did Mr. Gayle ever say he thought Ryan was speaking for UL?

Remember, the "views" not shared by UL include:
"But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel."

and
"
Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to "soften and buckle."

and
"
This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers."

Irrelevant? Hardly. It was entirely relevant because it reads as Ryan purporting to be writing on behalf of other members of UL and not just himself.
I.e., that "our" (their) CEO and FP business manager suggested that "we all" (they) be patient. It is one of the strongest damning points against Ryan wrt the letter as it gives the distinct impression that he is referring to others ("we all") at UL.
Please.
Relaying what someone said is NOT speaking for them.
Referring to others is NOT speaking for them.

No, it is not false. I said that in the letter, Ryan insinuates that he is not writing as a private individual alone and that the letter as a whole gives rise to a reasonable inference that Ryan was purporting to write as a representative of UL because, from a legal standpoint, it certainly does.
IYO
Other than the first paragraph, where Ryan was relating what he had heard, "We" and "us" included Mr. Gayle and therefore Ryan was NOT creating the misleading impression that he was speaking for UL.
He was stating points of agreement [including Mr. Gayle] and points of possible agreement [including Mr. Gayle].

The fact that your opinion may differ from mine and that of others, does not make your assertion correct or factual and it does not in any way, shape or form make what I said false.
The same is true in reverse.


more later
 
there goes c7 , repeating the same thing over and over again, despite being proven wrong over and over again. you do know what we call people who repeat things , hoping for a different answer... insane.
 
The cherry in question is:
UL falsely stated that Ryan "created a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL."
*representative: someone who speaks for others

Created a misleading impression on who?
Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan's views were not the views of UL.

UL stated that Ryan's letter did not represent the views of UL, so they knew. UL had been working closely with NIST, so they also knew.
Do you think Mr. Gayle was not aware of UL's views?
Do you seriously think Mr. Gayle thought Ryan was speaking for UL?
Did Mr. Gayle ever say he thought Ryan was speaking for UL?

Remember, the "views" not shared by UL include:
"But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel."

and
"
Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to "soften and buckle."

and
"
This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers."

Please.
Relaying what someone said is NOT speaking for them.
Referring to others is NOT speaking for them.

IYO
Other than the first paragraph, where Ryan was relating what he had heard, "We" and "us" included Mr. Gayle and therefore Ryan was NOT creating the misleading impression that he was speaking for UL.
He was stating points of agreement [including Mr. Gayle] and points of possible agreement [including Mr. Gayle].

The same is true in reverse.


more later


170604796803f95b43.jpg
 
Once again, it is interesting to see the points that you chose to respond to, and those that you have studiously avoided. Readers can and will draw their own conclusions from that, once again.


The cherry in question is:
UL falsely stated that Ryan "created a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL."
*representative: someone who speaks for others

Nice try but no, the cherry picking in question was yours. You know, when you deliberately misquoted and changed the judge's words in an effort to pretend that the judge said something that he did not say, and in an effort to pretend that the judge agreed with your interpretation when he did no such thing.

Oh, and your recent attempts to insert your own definition of "representative" as if that is the only definition attributable to the word - in order to try to reframe the discussion - are also disingenuous, albeit unsurprising.


Created a misleading impression on who?


You really don't understand this whole law thing, do you? Why not just admit it?


more nonsensical blather, snipped


See above.




Yes, that is my educated, informed, and professional opinion about the legal issues raised, based on years of relevant education, information and legal experience, as opposed to your uneducated, uninformed, and non-professional opinion based on nothing but a faith-based desire to cling to an unfounded, unsupported conspiracy theory. I've never suggested otherwise, and your lame attempts to suggest that I have are just silly, and blatantly apparent to readers.

Your refusal to address the issues raised with anything but your own misguided, uninformed, and uneducated opinion is also quite apparent to readers.


Other than the first paragraph, where Ryan was relating what he had heard, "We" and "us" included Mr. Gayle and therefore Ryan was NOT creating the misleading impression that he was speaking for UL. He was stating points of agreement [including Mr. Gayle] and points of possible agreement [including Mr. Gayle].


Nonsense, as set out more fully in prior posts. Why do you continue to ignore the actual issues and arguments raised? You are not fooling anyone but yourself, you know.


The same is true in reverse.


See above.


more later


No rush. I strongly suspect that you will proffer nothing but the same old nonsense that you've proffered thusfar. The world can certainly wait for that non-event.


Lastly, as I have said at least a couple of times previously, the evidence suggests that Ryan was fired for writing a letter from his workplace, using his work e-mail, using his work credentials that:

a) made reference to his work for UL;
b) was signed using his work title;
c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL;
d) did not represent the views of UL;
e) was not authorized by UL;
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment;
g) inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client;
h) exhibited extremely poor judgement;
i) caused harm to UL's reputation;
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client; and
k) made deceptive and misleading statements.


Once again, if you have any evidence to the contrary, now would be a good time to present it. So far, you've been remarkably and obviously reluctant to do so.


Spitfire, Arus, funk de fino, and jonnyclueless, immediately above, are right, as are several others, including Minadin, BillyRayValentine, Disbelief, AZCat, ukdave, et al further above.

And Kevin Ryan remains a liar and a fraud.
 
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You really don't understand this whole law thing, do you? Why not just admit it?


1706047dcfe501a50a.jpg



Yes, that is my educated, informed, and professional opinion about the legal issues raised, based on years of relevant education, information and legal experience, as opposed to your uneducated, uninformed, and non-professional opinion based on nothing but a faith-based desire to cling to an unfounded, unsupported conspiracy theory. I've never suggested otherwise, and your lame attempts to suggest that I have are just silly, and blatantly apparent to readers.

Your refusal to address the issues raised with anything but your own misguided, uninformed, and uneducated opinion is also quite apparent to readers.


1706047dcfe29ca912.jpg



And Kevin Ryan remains a liar and a fraud.


170604807f6db0f936.jpg


Still dead. :rolleyes:
 
I wrote a letter to my former employers, listing the stupid mistakes they made by restructuring their company.
I made certain to state in the letter that the opinions I expressed were my solely my own, and that they (former employers) were the first persons to read it.

I'm just a construction shop worker, but it seemed a bit more than obvious to include my disclaimer....to not only protect myself and other former workers, but to make my position/opinions more clear. A no-brainer, right?


=S=
 
If Ryan is writing with his own opinions, to Frank Gayle, why does he use the bolded words below?

Ryan said:
If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.

"we can all agree"? Who is this all? ryan and gayle? If it is a letter to gayle and it is a personal letter expressing personal opinions then why did he not write.

Ryan said:
If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can both agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.

Who is the rest of his all? Other employees of UL he had talked to? Other members of the NIST team?

Also here

ryan said:
And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications

Why not

ryan said:
And as we can both agree, the steel applied met those specifications

Give it up Chris, Ryan is a stupid liar and you look foolish defending him
 
. . your recent attempts to insert your own definition of "representative" as if that is the only definition attributable to the word
Representative: somebody who speaks for others; acting on somebody's behalf
Encarta Dictionary [Windows]

Is there another definition?

C7 said:
Other than the first paragraph, where Ryan was relating what he had heard, "We" and "us" included Mr. Gayle and therefore Ryan was NOT creating the misleading impression that he was speaking for UL. He was stating points of agreement [including Mr. Gayle] and points of possible agreement [including Mr. Gayle].
Are you saying that the "we" in these statements does not include Mr.Gayle?

Remember, this is a letter from Ryan to Gayle.

"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119"
"And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications"
"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
“I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”
“I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”

Lastly, as I have said at least a couple of times previously, the evidence suggests that Ryan was fired for writing a letter from his workplace, using his work e-mail, using his work credentials that:

a) made reference to his work for UL; [true]
b) was signed using his work title; [true]

c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL; [FALSE]

d) did not represent the views of UL; [True]
e) was not authorized by UL; [true]
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment; [true]
g) inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client; [opinion]
h) exhibited extremely poor judgment; [opinion]
i) caused harm to UL's reputation; [opinion]
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client; [opinion] and
k) made deceptive and misleading statements. [opinion]


Once again, if you have any evidence to the contrary, now would be a good time to present it. So far, you've been remarkably and obviously reluctant to do so.
See above and:
Writing from his workplace and identifying himself as an employee of UL does NOT indicate he was speaking for UL.
The site manager of a environmental lab does NOT speak for the management. Mr. Gayle knew this. He also knew Ryan's views were NOT those of UL.
Ryan's letter did NOT give Mr. Gayle the misleading impression that Ryan was speaking for UL.
 
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Representative: somebody who speaks for others; acting on somebody's behalf
Encarta Dictionary [Windows]

Is there another definition?


You keep parroting this definition; how is it even relevant to the issue?

Remember, this is a letter from Ryan to Gayle.

"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119"
"And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications"
"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
“I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”
“I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”


Who is "we all" in the above statements?

Writing from his workplace and identifying himself as an employee of UL does NOT indicate he was speaking for UL.


Ryan didn't just "identify himself as an employee of UL." He placed his job title and employer's name underneath his signature. Do you feel that it is at all common for people to do this in personal correspondence? I'm not saying it never happens, but those cases are undoubtedly few and far between, and mostly arise from a person's acting self-important or being facetious.

The site manager of a environmental lab does NOT speak for the management.


Are you saying that corporations never allow the heads of divisions or departments to make public statements??

Mr. Gayle knew this. He also knew Ryan's views were NOT those of UL.
Ryan's letter did NOT give Mr. Gayle the misleading impression that Ryan was speaking for UL.


How do you know this? Have you spoken with Mr. Gayle? Are you a mind reader? Perhaps you should apply for the million dollar prize. :rolleyes:
 
Gage has changed the PowerPoint AGAIN.

This is the fourth version, for those of you keeping track at home.
 
Here is a question I don't have an answer for.

Does UL have an internal policy for it's employees that states that the official UL letterhead is to be used in official communications only?

If it does, than that alone would be enough to show that Ryan was "creating a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL".

I have worked (in the UK) for testing/certifying organisations, including fire-resistance testing. Whether my employers had that sort of policy I don't know (can't remember), but it would never have occurred to me to put out anything that was not official on the company letterhead.

It would have been a totally unprofessional thing to do.

Dave
 
You keep parroting this definition; how is it even relevant to the issue?
The issue is: UL said Ryan's letter created a misleading impression that he was representing [speaking for] UL. He was not. He was expressing his opinions.

"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119"
"And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications"
"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
“I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”
“I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”
Who is "we all" in the above statements?
Ryan, Knoblauch, Chapin and Gayle. Ryan was stating the points where he thought everyone was in agreement and points he thought they could agree on. Ryan was speaking to Mr. Gayle, not for him, nor was he speaking for Knoblauch and Chapin. Stating points where he thought there was or could be agreement is obviously his opinion.

Ryan didn't just "identify himself as an employee of UL." He placed his job title and employer's name underneath his signature. Do you feel that it is at all common for people to do this in personal correspondence? I'm not saying it never happens, but those cases are undoubtedly few and far between, and mostly arise from a person's acting self-important or being facetious.
Ryan did use his position at UL to get Mr. Gayle's attention.
Ryan said he contacted management and they told him to be patient. After reading the NIST report he had questions that management did not address so he felt the need to contact Mr. Gayle directly. He did not say or indicate he was speaking for UL but rather he was stating his own concerns.

Are you saying that corporations never allow the heads of divisions or departments to make public statements??
Only in their area of expertise. The manager of a water testing facility would not speak for the company on the issue of testing steel assemblies.

How do you know this? Have you spoken with Mr. Gayle? Are you a mind reader? Perhaps you should apply for the million dollar prize. :rolleyes:
Do you really think Mr. Gayle thought the manager of a water testing facility was speaking for the company on the issue of testing steel assemblies? :confused:
 
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Gage has changed the PowerPoint AGAIN.

This is the fourth version, for those of you keeping track at home.
AE 911 Truth appreciates input pointing out the errors in their presentation, as Judy Shelton noted:
"Blender Head, you touched off a raging debate among AE Team members! Good work, you drew our attention to something we need to fix. Here's the outcome of all the back and forth:"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3620559#post3620559

They take the time to discuss what the change should be before changing the PowerPoint.
If you think their revised statement is incorrect, state your reason or question as Blender Head did.
 
The issue is: UL said Ryan's letter created a misleading impression that he was representing [speaking for] UL. He was not. He was expressing his opinions.

"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119"
"And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications"
"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
“I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”
“I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”
If that were true, "we" would never have been a part of it at all.
Ryan, Knoblauch, Chapin and Gayle. Ryan was stating the points where he thought everyone was in agreement and points he thought they could agree on. Ryan was speaking to Mr. Gayle, not for him, nor was he speaking for Knoblauch and Chapin. Stating points where he thought there was or could be agreement is obviously his opinion.
No, he would be asking for their agreement and not stating it as if they already agreed. By using "we," you are creating the impression of speaking for the group and not just yourself. At least, that is what most adults do.

Ryan did use his position to get Mr. Gayle's attention.
Ryan said he contacted management and they told him to be patient. After reading the NIST report he had questions that management did not address so he felt the need to contact Mr. Gayle directly. He did not say or indicate he was speaking for UL but rather he was stating his own concerns.
Again, by stating his position and using the UL name and stationary, he is speaking as a representative of the company and not as an individual.
Only in their area of expertise. The manager of a water testing facility would not speak for the company on the issue of testing steel assemblies.

Do you really think Mr. Gayle thought the manager of a water testing facility was speaking for the company on the issue of testing steel assemblies? :confused:
Whether or not Mr. Gayle thought that is immaterial. The Rense article is irrefutable proof that it can be misconstrued as speaking for the company.
 
C7, I work for a large corporation, and we are expressly forbidden from communicating personal opinion on company letterheads. It is in fact, a fireable offense. If it is forbidden at UL, like it is at most companies, they had every right to fire.
 

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