AE911Truth Watch

I, for one, have not claimed that Ryan was representing his opinion as the position of UL. I have said that there is plenty in Ryan's letter to NIST upon which such a finding could be made - because there is.
The first reason given for Ryan's termination in the "Termination of Employment" notice was:
"Your letter created the misleading impression that you were speaking as a representative of UL. In fact, as you know, your letter did not represent the views of UL"

If you read Ryan's entire email to Mr Gayle, it is obvious that he is expressing his own views and they were obviously NOT the views of UL.

In any event, it is not a lie for someone to express an opinion that Ryan wrote his letter in such a way as to convey that he was expressing the views of his employer. (Obviously, UL viewed it that way, and that is not an unreasonable interpretation from their point of view.) Rather, it is an opinion, and one that is reasonably founded upon the evidence.
What evidence? Ryan's views were obviously his own.

If you are going to call Ryan a liar for misinterpreting the response from Mr. Knoblauch [exhibit C], then you must hold UL to the same standard and call them liars for misinterpreting Ryan's email to Mr. Gayle.

That you hold a contrary opinion does not make the opinion of someone who disagrees with you a lie.
I agree. I wish people here would adhere to that principle.
 
Last edited:
It's interesting to see the points that you chose to respond to, and those that you studiously avoided.

The first reason given for Ryan's termination in the "Termination of Employment" notice was:
"Your letter created the misleading impression that you were speaking as a representative of UL. In fact, as you know, your letter did not represent the views of UL"


Yes. Exactly as I said above, UL's impression of Kevin Ryan's letter to NIST is that he was purporting to speak on behalf of his employer. Their interpretation of his letter is not at all unreasonable.


If you read Ryan's entire email to Mr Gayle, it is obvious that he is expressing his own views and they were obviously NOT the views of UL.


I have read it several times. You are somewhat of a Johnny-come-lately to the Kevin Ryan matter here, but there are several old threads about it that you could easily locate and read to educate yourself.

And, no, it is not "obvious" that Ryan was merely expressing his own views and not purporting to be speaking on behalf of his employer in that letter. That's rather the point.


What evidence? Ryan's views were obviously his own.


Not "obvious" at all. See above. The evidence: see the prior threads on the matter, in which the numerous references to "we", "our", "us", etc. in Ryan's letter are noted, and see the letter itself. You really should get yourself up to speed on this stuff if you're going to attempt to argue it. So far, you are failing miserably.


If you are going to call Ryan a liar for misinterpreting the response from Mr. Knoblauch [exhibit C], then you must hold UL to the same standard and call them liars for misinterpreting Ryan's email to Mr. Gayle.


Are you completely incapable of reading for comprehension? It sure appears so.

It appears that you are conceding that Ryan has misinterpreted the cherry picked e-mail exchange that he belatedly attached to his Second Amended Complaint, and it appears that you are conceding that the conclusions he drew from it were wrong, if not deliberately dishonest. That's a start.

But you seem to be suggesting that I have called Ryan a liar for misinterpreting something, when I have done no such thing. I have not called Kevin Ryan a liar for misinterpreting the (cherry picked and grossly incomplete 'exhibit c') email exchange to which you allude. If and when I call Kevin Ryan a liar, it is because he knowingly tells lies, repeatedly (and long after the time for him to acknowledge his misinterpretation and refrain from repeating it has passed).


Further, I have seen no evidence that UL has misinterpreted Ryan's letter to NIST, nor any evidence that UL has lied about it, so your false premise is rejected.

(As an aside, don't you even wonder why Kevin Ryan cherry picked that email exchange and refused to provide it in its entirety when the whole of his case depended on it? If not, you should.)

I agree. I wish people here would adhere to that principle.


You should start with yourself. You repeatedly accuse others of lying because they disagree with you. You should stop doing that.
 
Last edited:


Seconded.

1706047b98b7c27615.jpg
 
Not "obvious" at all. See above. The evidence: see the prior threads on the matter, in which the numerous references to "we", "our", "us", etc. in Ryan's letter are noted, and see the letter itself.
The termination letter said Ryan “signed the letter as Site Manager, Environmental Health Laboratories” as if that was creating a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL.
*representative: someone who speaks for others

As for the letter itself,
Here are all the places where Ryan uses the words "we", "our" and "us".

"In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements.”
Right or wrong, Ryan is relaying his view based on his communications with Mr. Knoblauch and Mr. Chapin .
He does not say or indicate he is was speaking for UL.

In this letter, Ryan is speaking to Mr. Gayle.
If you look at this set of statements as a whole, the “we” and “us” includes Mr. Gayle.

"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119"

"And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications"

"I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind"
His own opinion


“I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F”


“I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind”

“You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth.”


With the exception of “And as we all agree,” Ryan was clearly expressing his own views.
Viewing the letter as a whole, it is obvious that Ryan was not creating a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL.

UL was working closely with NIST.
NIST was well aware of UL’s views on the subject.
It was obvious to all that Ryan’s views were not those of UL
and therefore it is obvious that he was not speaking for UL.

Ryan was fired for questioning the unsubstantiated Cheney/Bush conspiracy theory.
 
The termination letter said Ryan “signed the letter as Site Manager, Environmental Health Laboratories” as if that was creating a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL.
*representative: someone who speaks for others


The letter said much more that, as you well know. Why not be honest and link to the termination letter itself instead of just cherry picking the parts that you think support your feeble interpretation of it?

Specifically, the termination letter from UL says that Ryan's letter:
a) made reference to his work for UL;
b) was signed using his work title;
c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL;
d) did not represent the views of UL;
e) was not authorized by UL;
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment;
g) highly inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client;
h) exhibited extremely poor judgement;
i) caused harm to UL's reputation; and
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client.

It also suggests that Ryan's statements were deceptive and misleading , and advises him that UL expects him not to do so in the future and expects him to abide by confidentiality obligations.

You really should stop your dishonest cherry picking. You've done it numerous times and it only demonstrates how feeble your arguments and unfounded allegations are.


As for the letter itself,
Here are all the places where Ryan uses the words "we", "our" and "us".


No, those are not all the places where Ryan uses the words "we", "our" and "us". Once again, why not be honest and link to Ryan's letter itself instead of just cherry picking the parts that you think support your interpretation of it?

For instance, who do you suppose Kevin Ryan was referring to in the first full paragraph when he refers to - and which you did not cite - "our CEO and Fire Protection business manager" and says "they suggested "we all" be patient and understand ..." ? Sure sounds like he's talking about multiple people at UL, doesn't it? Is that why you deliberately left those references out?


Right or wrong, Ryan is relaying his view based on his communications with Mr. Knoblauch and Mr. Chapin .


That is merely your opinion based upon your obviously biased interpretation of yet another cherry picked presentation. As I said previously, your opinion is only that. Others disagree with your opinion, for very good reasons.

And I remind you that Ryan chose not to provide the court with his alleged e-mail exchange with Mr. Knoblauch and/or Mr. Chapin in support of his ill-fated complaint, and chose not to provide even the oddly-disjointed and evidentiary-valueless excerpts of same that he eventually provided until it was much too late. Why do you suppose that is?


He does not say or indicate he is was speaking for UL.


Of course, he does not say he was speaking for UL, as he had no authority to do so, as a water tester at a subsidiary of UL. However, as has been pointed out several times already, by his choice of language, by writing the letter at work, by using his UL position in his signature (and the further references to UL in the signature line in the original, by the way, that do not appear in the online versions), by sending the letter from his workplace, and by repeated references to "us", "we", "our", etc., he most certainly insinuates that he is not writing as a private individual alone. The letter as a whole gives rise to a reasonable inference that he was trying to appear as though he was speaking from a position of authority within UL on behalf of others for whom he had no right to speak.

That's why he was fired.


In this letter, Ryan is speaking to Mr. Gayle.
If you look at this set of statements as a whole, the “we” and “us” includes Mr. Gayle.


And who else? That is rather the point.

Ryan is an idiot for writing that letter in the manner he did, and it is no wonder that he got fired for it.


His own opinion


In your opinion.

With the exception of “And as we all agree,” Ryan was clearly expressing his own views.


No, it is not "clear" at all. See above.

It would have been very, very easy to write the letter in a manner that could not be interpreted as anything other than a private individual sending his personal concerns to NIST, even mentioning his employment and why and how he came to his (unsupported) assertions. Instead, Ryan chose to play word games, chose to use his work e-mail to do so, chose to use his position at a subsidiary of UL to get NIST's attention, chose to pretend that he had more knowledge and information than he actually had, chose to pretend to be a "whistleblower" when he was no such thing, chose to pretend to have closer ties to UL than he did, chose to let his delusions and his idiocy get the better of him, and it blew up in his face.

He lost his job as a result of his own stupidity and his own actions, and it is nobody's fault but his own.


Viewing the letter as a whole, it is obvious that Ryan was not creating a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL.


No, it is not "obvious" at all. Again, that is the point. See above.


It was obvious to all that Ryan's views were not those of U/L and therefore it is obvious that he was not speaking for UL.


Nonsense. See above.


Ryan was fired for questioning the unsubstantiated Cheney/Bush conspiracy theory.


Really? The evidence suggests that he was fired for writing a letter from his workplace, using his work e-mail, using his work credentials that:

a) made reference to his work for UL;
b) was signed using his work title;
c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL;
d) did not represent the views of UL;
e) was not authorized by UL;
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment;
g) inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client;
h) exhibited extremely poor judgement;
i) caused harm to UL's reputation;
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client; and
k) made deceptive and misleading statements.


If you have any evidence to the contrary, now would be a good time to present it.

Oh, and please educate yourself about the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory, while you're at it.
 
Last edited:
Specifically, the termination letter from UL says that Ryan's letter:
a) made reference to his work for UL; true
b) was signed using his work title; true
c) created the misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative of UL; false
d) did not represent the views of UL; obviously
e) was not authorized by UL; whistle blowers are not authorized
f) did not refer to matters within Ryan's area of employment; true
g) highly inappropriately commented on tests UL had done for its client; opinion
h) exhibited extremely poor judgement; opinion
i) caused harm to UL's reputation; and opinion
j) caused harm to UL's relationship with its client. opinion

It also suggests that Ryan's statements were deceptive and misleading , and advises him that UL expects him not to do so in the future and expects him to abide by confidentiality obligations.
UL has a right to their opinion and the judge ruled in their favor. So be it.
I like to focus on one thing at a time. You call this cherry picking.
No worries.

UL falsely stated that Ryan "created a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL."
*representative: someone who speaks for others

Created a misleading impression on who?
Everyone knew that Ryan's views were not the views of UL.

No, those are not all the places where Ryan uses the words "we", "our" and "us".
For instance, who do you suppose Kevin Ryan was referring to in the first full paragraph when he refers to - and which you did not cite - "our CEO and Fire Protection business manager" and says "they suggested "we all" be patient and understand ..." ? Sure sounds like he's talking about multiple people at UL, doesn't it?
Now who's cherry picking?
I did include "our CEO and Fire Protection business manager" to show that it in no way indicated that Ryan was speaking for UL, but i left out the "they suggested "we all" because Knoblauch and Chapin saying "be patient" is irrelevant to the point.

Of course, he does not say he was speaking for UL, as he had no authority to do so, as a water tester at a subsidiary of UL.
true

However, as has been pointed out several times already, by his choice of language, by writing the letter at work, by using his UL position in his signature (and the further references to UL in the signature line in the original, by the way, that do not appear in the online versions), by sending the letter from his workplace,and by repeated references to "us", "we", "our", etc., he most certainly insinuates that he is not writing as a private individual alone.
The letter as a whole gives rise to a reasonable inference that he was trying to appear as though he was speaking from a position of authority within UL on behalf of others for whom he had no right to speak.
false, as i pointed out in post 665

The Site Manager, Environmental Health Laboratories, does not speak for the company, the CEO does.
He did use his position to get a reply but he did not say or represent that he was speaking for UL.
UL was working closely with NIST and NIST was aware of UL's views.
Ryan's views were obviously NOT the views of UL.

Originally Posted by Christopher7
In this letter, Ryan is speaking to Mr. Gayle.
If you look at this set of statements as a whole, the “we” and “us” includes Mr. Gayle.
And who else? That is rather the point.
The point is:
"We" and "us" included Mr. Gayle and therefore Ryan was NOT creating the misleading impression that he was speaking for UL.
He was stating points of agreement [including Mr. Gayle] and points of possible agreement [including Mr. Gayle].

The over all point is:
If you are going to call Ryan a liar for misinterpreting the response from Mr. Knoblauch [exhibit C], then you must hold UL to the same standard and call them liars for misinterpreting Ryan's letter to Mr. Gayle.


He lost his job as a result of his own . . . . actions, and it is nobody's fault but his own.
I have to agree with you here. Ryan screwed up, soup to nuts.
He is a still patriot imo and unpatriotic iyo.
 
The termination letter said Ryan “signed the letter as Site Manager, Environmental Health Laboratories” as if that was creating a misleading impression that he was speaking as a representative* of UL.
*representative: someone who speaks for others
...
It was obvious to all that Ryan’s views were not those of UL
and therefore it is obvious that he was not speaking for UL.
Wrong in every sense of the word. By signing it using his title and using UL stationary, he IS speaking on behalf of UL, therefore creating the impression that he is representing the views of UL. Just because we "know" that he was speaking for himself is irrelevant to the lawsuit and the dismissal. By using UL's name, logo and his title, he is writing as a representative of UL and not as an individual citizen.
 
Let's face it, Ryan could have avoided these problems had he contacted NIST using his own email address and in his own time. But then they might have wondered what the hell a water tester had to do with fire testing steel components.
 
The Site Manager, Environmental Health Laboratories, does not speak for the company, the CEO does.
So, according to you the marketing and sales folks at a company can write letters and say whatever they want since ONLY communications from the CEO of a company are to be considered as indicative of the company's position on any matter?

Here's a hint:

If you work for a company and send out a letter using their letterhead (or from the company email system) and/or sign it with your name and your title at that company, the company WILL hold you fully responsible for its contents.
 
Wrong in every sense of the word. By signing it using his title and using UL stationary, he IS speaking on behalf of UL, therefore creating the impression that he is representing the views of UL. Just because we "know" that he was speaking for himself is irrelevant to the lawsuit* and the dismissal**. By using UL's name, logo and his title, he is writing as a representative of UL and not as an individual citizen.
It does not follow that identifying himself as an employee of UL creates a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL. Ryan did not claim to be speaking for UL and Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan's views were not those of UL. Ryan's letter did not give the impression he was speaking for UL.
So who got the impression that Ryan was speaking for UL?
Nobody.

*The judge ruled that the whistle blower statute did not apply.
The reasons for termination were not an issue in his decision.
**It was the primary reason for dismissal and it was demonstratively not true.
 
It does not follow that identifying himself as an employee of UL creates a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL.
Wrong again. When you put your title as part of your signature and use company stationary, you can give the impression that you are representing the views of the company. Period. Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Any reasonable adult would.
Ryan did not claim to be speaking for UL and Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan's views were not those of UL. Ryan's letter did not give the impression he was speaking for UL.
Irrelevant. The fact that Ryan put us title on his signature and use the company stationary can signify that you are writing on behalf of the company.
So who got the impression that Ryan was speaking for UL?
Nobody.
Wrong again. The fact is that the "Truth Movement" is using Ryan's statements as statements from UL.
 
Wrong again. When you put your title as part of your signature and use company stationary, you can give the impression that you are representing the views of the company. Period.
In this instance, that was not the case. Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan was not speaking for UL.

Wrong again. The fact is that the "Truth Movement" is using Ryan's statements as statements from UL.
Rense misinterpreted and overstated what 911Truth had posted. [before Ryan was fired]

Friday, November 12, 2004
(911Truth.org news service -- updated 11/13, 11/14)
An executive at Underwriters Laboratories (UL), the company that certified the steel used in the construction of the World Trade Center, has questioned the common theory that fuel fires caused the Twin Towers to collapse.
<snip>
911Truth.org called Ryan Friday to confirm his authorship. Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company, but others at UL are aware of his action.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041112144051451
 
In this instance, that was not the case. Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan was not speaking for UL.
Wrong again. There is nothing in the letter that states that he was speaking only on his behalf. As a matter of fact the statement:
requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements.
would indicate that he is including both the CEO and the Fire Protection business manager.
Rense misinterpreted and overstated what 911Truth had posted. [before Ryan was fired]
No. Rense is stating what the letter is representing
Friday, November 12, 2004
(911Truth.org news service -- updated 11/13, 11/14)
An executive at Underwriters Laboratories (UL), the company that certified the steel used in the construction of the World Trade Center, has questioned the common theory that fuel fires caused the Twin Towers to collapse.
<snip>
911Truth.org called Ryan Friday to confirm his authorship. Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company, but others at UL are aware of his action.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041112144051451
That was stated to 911Truth and not to Mr. Gayle in the letter.
 
There is nothing in the letter that states that he was speaking only on his behalf.
There was nothing in the letter to indicate Ryan was speaking for UL.

As a matter of fact the statement:
"requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements."
would indicate that he is including both the CEO and the Fire Protection business manager.
Ryan was relating what he had learned in his communications with the CEO and Fire Protection business manager. He did not indicate he was speaking for them.
Mr. Gayle was working closely with UL and he knew UL's views.
It was obvious that Ryan was not speaking for UL.

No. Rense is stating what the letter is representing
911Truth posted the letter with the disclaimer:
Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company,
The disclaimer is clear and unequivocal.
Rense ignored this disclaimer.

Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan was NOT speaking for UL.
The public was informed that Ryan was speaking for himself.

Ryan did NOT create a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL, publicly or privately.
 
There was nothing in the letter to indicate Ryan was speaking for UL.
Citing his title and it being on UL stationary is that indication. Period
Ryan was relating what he had learned in his communications with the CEO and Fire Protection business manager. He did not indicate he was speaking for them.
By including it in this letter can indicate that he is speaking FOR them.
Mr. Gayle was working closely with UL and he knew UL's views.
Irrelevant. The letter could indicate that UL had changed their views.
It was obvious that Ryan was not speaking for UL.
Wrong. The use of his UL title and UL stationary can easily be taken that he is speaking for UL.
911Truth posted the letter with the disclaimer:
Ryan made it clear he is speaking for himself only, not on behalf of his laboratory or the company,
The disclaimer is clear and unequivocal.
Rense ignored this disclaimer.
The disclaimer is 911Truths disclaimer to its readers and not Ryan's disclaimer to Mr. Gayle or UL. Learn the difference.

Mr. Gayle knew that Ryan was NOT speaking for UL.
This is shown where?
The public was informed that Ryan was speaking for himself.
911Truth.org is not exactly a mainstream publication that the general public would read
Ryan did NOT create a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL, publicly or privately.
Wrong again. By using his UL title, UL stationary and UL personnel contacts, it can create the misleading impression that he is speaking for UL. Just because we know differently is irrelevant. The possibility that someone could interpret the letter as being a UL statement is what the ruling is about.
 
Here is a question I don't have an answer for.

Does UL have an internal policy for it's employees that states that the official UL letterhead is to be used in official communications only?

If it does, than that alone would be enough to show that Ryan was "creating a misleading impression that he was speaking for UL".
 

Back
Top Bottom