Multi-level Marketing - the way of credulous.

[icerat]

Last post was at lunch from my iPhone, so let me be a little more clear.

Tools are different from regular product. They are produced by the AMOs (N21 in your case) and sold into the pyramid using a different compensation scheme. This scheme varies but in all cases there is more profit per $ going into the pyramid from these tools than there is from Amway product.

Calling it "the pyramid" is sign enough that you can't be trusted to discuss this rationally. You know it's not a pyramid.

I've asked you what knowledge you have of specific different BSM companies, and you've refused to answer the question. You have no kowledge or experience with them - and here you making the explicit claim "in all cases".

Put up or shut up

What's more it's a provable lie. I gave you the N21 rebate schedule. A maximum of $2.20 of a $7.00 CD is paid out in rebates. That means a total of up to 31.4%.

Amway pays out 35%.

What's more, for any given organisation, the $ amount of revenues from Amway is far larger than the $ amount revenues from BSM.

Yet here you are making an "all cases" claim. You have no idea what these other organization are doing. You just outright lied.

As the Diamond and above control the creation and distribution of these products they get the lions share of the profit. Not all of them are created equal as icerat has pointed out, for example the Dornans seem to own the N21 production so there cut will be a little larger.

Do you even understand that N21 is not part of Amway or the Amway organization, or even of the Dornan's Amway organization? It's a separate, for-profit company, setup to supply training and educational materials to Amway IBOs. Many of whom are not in the Dornan's Amway organization.

However, they still need the cooperation of the diamonds and others in their organization so they still have to give them a reasonable cut. This will depend on the size of their business.

Shock horror. Let's rewrite what that actually means - A company needs "the cooperation" of it's customers. They need to offer the customers reasonable discounts, depending on the volumes they purchase.

Just crazy the way business works.

They will get a cut from everyone that buys a seminar ticket (as well the downline emeralds and platinums also get a piece for each person in their sub-orgranization). Now although the total dollar amount of product moving through the network from Amway is greater, the profit per dollar is much much higher on tools and functions, which is why they are pushed so much. The chart relating volume discount that Icerat posted is the "cover" story.

Ahhh yes, the usual response to the critic who has been shown to be wrong "they're lying". Uhuh.

You have no idea what is true or not. I've asked many times what actually experience you have had with the major BSM companies and you refused to answer.

You simply don't know, and you are on this forum spreading the same BS Myths that are spread on the internet by others.

Just admit you don't know

The bottom line is that using Icerats own numbers for how much a plugged in distributor will spend on "tools" (and btw I think his numbers are on the low side) and comparing it to the amount of income an average Diamond will have from Amyway, it's obivous that there is more money in tools than product.

Yup, absolutely. If you compare the amount of $$$$ spent on tools in an organiza tion MUCH bigger than a Diamond and there could indeed be more tool income than a Diamond with a MUCH smaller Amway business would be getting from Amway.

You're twisting things so much you're going to be a human knot soon. You are being outright dishonest, again.

Obviously this is going to vary for different Diamonds depending on how much leverage they have, but for the average Diamond it turns them from a low 6-figure income into a lot lot more.

Average Diamond in N21 United States makes less than $25,000/yr from N21.

Keep in mind that none of the above is under any dispute whatsoever when it comes to most AMO systems. It's just that Icerat claims his N21 group is "special" and not as bad.

I never made any such claim. What I pointed out was that one LOS and it's affiliates, one of many, appears to be the source of virtually all internet complaints about Amway and all of the BSM related lawsuits. That makes that group different in some way, not any of the other groups.

A rational mind might think there was a pattern worth considering.

I personally think they are just smarter about managing their image, even for their own distributors.

Also, your ridiculous "expenses" that N21 has producing all of this material are absolutely minimal on a per-unit basis. I'm in the freakin software business and the overhead for doing this is really really small.

ROFLMAO!!!! I've been in the software business. I've been in other businesses as well. And I know being in the software business has extremely little relevance to knowing the overhead for operating a major multinational education and events company.

Keep in mind that all of the other AMO's (for example Dexters) would have the same expenses and they manage to turn a rather large profit for all of the Diamonds in their system.

Bull. You have no idea how different groups operate. That's why you refuse to answer questions regarding your experience with them. I believe for example that in the Yager group it was (may still be) common for Platinums to be "volunteer workers" and Yager events. N21 on the other hand has numerous full-time paid staff running these events. The Platinums look after their Amway businesses.

Anyone with business experience will know that staffing is a major expense. Yet you would have us believe an organization paying dozens of staff to run an event has the same expenses as one using volunteers.

Basically Icerat, you are brainwashed and clueless about where the money is going. Seriously, do some of the math based on the amount of tools these guys sell and then compare it to the expenses you claim are so high. The math simply doesn't add up.

Your math doesn't add up. And your dodging, refusal to accept hard data, and constant laughable defence that "I'm brainwashed" is getting pretty damn tiresome.

Oh, and btw, comparing this to "other" business and what they charge for education is silly. The vast majority of information here is motivational in nature, not things like selling techniques (although some of that exists).

NewtonTrino, you are a JOKE. You have ZERO experience with most of these companies ZERO. You have no idea what materials they produce and sell. NONE. Yet you sit at your keyboard, knowing you know nothing about them, and keep making claims about them.

Seriously do people need to be getting new cd's, books etc EVERY SINGLE MONTH? Do they need to be attending larger functions on multiple occasions per year? These CD's, books and functions are meant to keep people momentum up and keep them brainwashed in the system.

Seriously, do those law students need to going to lectures like nearly EVERY SINGLE DAY?

You have no idea what's in the material or what it's for - you can't know since you don't know what books are recommended, and you've never attended a seminar or listened to a CD from virtually all of these companies.

Yet you claim omniscience.

Anyway, if you want to keep arguing the math of it we can keep going back and forth. Bottom line, if you are getting $200 a month for tools from "active" distributors and you are getting 100PV from them (and everyone "active" in their network) then you are going to be making a freakin bundle on tools.

Perhaps. Except that example doesn't even remotely reflect reality, either in the amount you "get" from BSM nor the amount you "get" in PV.

You've got your firm apaprently immutable beliefs about this, and any contrary information you're simply dismissing as "brainwashing" and "lies".

There really is little point in continuing the discussion when you simply refuse to accept anything that challenges your beliefs.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Calling it "the pyramid" is sign enough that you can't be trusted to discuss this rationally. You know it's not a pyramid.

It's not a pyramid? hahahaha. No really hahahaha ha.

I've asked you what knowledge you have of specific different BSM companies, and you've refused to answer the question. You have no kowledge or experience with them - and here you making the explicit claim "in all cases".

Put up or shut up

What's more it's a provable lie. I gave you the N21 rebate schedule. A maximum of $2.20 of a $7.00 CD is paid out in rebates. That means a total of up to 31.4%.

Well I'm just using your own numbers. From my calculations BASED ON YOUR NUMBERS it still looks like a "normal" Diamond will be getting a significant portion of their income from tools. Everyone reading this, keep in mind that Icerat is trying to bend the numbers in his favor but even with my using conservative numbers it's not looking good.

Amway pays out 35%.

What's more, for any given organisation, the $ amount of revenues from Amway is far larger than the $ amount revenues from BSM.

Yet here you are making an "all cases" claim. You have no idea what these other organization are doing. You just outright lied.



Do you even understand that N21 is not part of Amway or the Amway organization, or even of the Dornan's Amway organization? It's a separate, for-profit company, setup to supply training and educational materials to Amway IBOs. Many of whom are not in the Dornan's Amway organization.

It's called being affiliated. How many NON AMWAY companies use his tools? Basically the way this works is that when you are a high enough pin and can "swing it" you can either create your own AMO (start holding your own functions, making your own tapes etc) or you can affiliate with someone else doing this. You do NOT have to be in their Amway line of sponsorship to do this. This comes down to leverage for a particular diamond (or any pin with a large group). Some of the lawsuits flying around in the past 10 years had to do with this as some people thought they weren't getting a big enough cut for their group. Icerat, you are incredibly naive if you think that a Diamond bringing his group into affiliation with N21 would only get the money in the "public" discount schedule. There are bonuses in Amway that go to big pins which are above an beyond the normal bonus payouts based on the size of their business. All I'm saying is that I'm sure the same thing has to exist in the tools business above and beyond the pricebreak above. Keep in mind that this could vary depending on what individuals have negotiated. I'll sure as hell tell you one thing, no astute businessperson would just take the first number presented in a contract so it probably varies from group to group and diamond to diamond depend on size, volume etc. But there is competition in this area as Diamond can CHANGE their affiliation (e.g. move from Dexter or WWDB or BWW to N21 or back) depending on who is going to help them make the most money.

Shock horror. Let's rewrite what that actually means - A company needs "the cooperation" of it's customers. They need to offer the customers reasonable discounts, depending on the volumes they purchase.

Just crazy the way business works.

Dude, I'm a capitalist. I have no problem with people selling product. I'm not even sure this scam should necessarily be illegal. It is immoral though. It's probably not the best for our society to be building business based on PT Barnums theories though.

Ahhh yes, the usual response to the critic who has been shown to be wrong "they're lying". Uhuh.

You have no idea what is true or not. I've asked many times what actually experience you have had with the major BSM companies and you refused to answer.

You simply don't know, and you are on this forum spreading the same BS Myths that are spread on the internet by others.

Just admit you don't know

Dude, it's up to you to show your AMO is different. Frankly you aren't high enough in the hierarchy to have any real information to show us. Come back when you have some financial data from real business. I have personally SEEN the amount of cash generated from some of these different businesses and it's HUGE. Keep in mind I'm not arguing from heresay, I have direct experience as someone supplying software to big pins.

Yup, absolutely. If you compare the amount of $$$$ spent on tools in an organiza tion MUCH bigger than a Diamond and there could indeed be more tool income than a Diamond with a MUCH smaller Amway business would be getting from Amway.

You're twisting things so much you're going to be a human knot soon. You are being outright dishonest, again.


Average Diamond in N21 United States makes less than $25,000/yr from N21.

Uh huh. Dude, there is simply way more money per dollar for a Diamond in tools than there is in Amway product. Again, maybe we should crunch some numbers using your price break schedule above but I bet it's hard to get it as low as $25k. You are simply brainwashed here, another victim of the scam.

I never made any such claim. What I pointed out was that one LOS and it's affiliates, one of many, appears to be the source of virtually all internet complaints about Amway and all of the BSM related lawsuits. That makes that group different in some way, not any of the other groups.

A rational mind might think there was a pattern worth considering.

I've seen many complaints about N21. Anyway, it's up to you to show that N21 is different from any of the others. BWW, WWDB and Dexter's AMO are all total scams, do you deny this? Can you point out any others besides N21 that you think are not scams? Bottom line, you are being scammed like everyone else and you really have no idea where all those dollars are going.

ROFLMAO!!!! I've been in the software business. I've been in other businesses as well. And I know being in the software business has extremely little relevance to knowing the overhead for operating a major multinational education and events company.

Not really. For example we do a lot of voice work including hiring SAG actors, editing the voice, localization to different countries etc. My last product shipped with Chinese, Korean, English, French, Italian, German, Russian and a few others. The amount of edited, translated and recorded VO was quite large and it's simple not that expensive to do this stuff. Events themselves are a little expensive on a per $ basis but they do charge a lot more for an event than a CD.

Bull. You have no idea how different groups operate. That's why you refuse to answer questions regarding your experience with them. I believe for example that in the Yager group it was (may still be) common for Platinums to be "volunteer workers" and Yager events. N21 on the other hand has numerous full-time paid staff running these events. The Platinums look after their Amway businesses.

Anyone with business experience will know that staffing is a major expense. Yet you would have us believe an organization paying dozens of staff to run an event has the same expenses as one using volunteers.

Yager does tend to use Platinums and up to run the events. However, you still need security, janitorial etc etc at those events. Anyway, they charge enough to cover this stuff and still have plenty left over. Compare the price to an average rock concert (these make millions !!).

NewtonTrino, you are a JOKE. You have ZERO experience with most of these companies ZERO. You have no idea what materials they produce and sell. NONE. Yet you sit at your keyboard, knowing you know nothing about them, and keep making claims about them.

Then show me where EVERY CENT goes from the tools business in N21. I want to see your own math based on an "average" 150k a year Diamond using your own tools breakdown charts and I want function money included. Show us how much you would expect this average diamond to make from tools.

You simply aren't high enough up the chain to have the knowledge necessary for this discussion. On top of that if you were you could easily LIE (which is what the tool kingpins did for years and some still do).

 

[icerat]

Well I'm just using your own numbers. From my calculations BASED ON YOUR NUMBERS it still looks like a "normal" Diamond will be getting a significant portion of their income from tools. Everyone reading this, keep in mind that Icerat is trying to bend the numbers in his favor but even with my using conservative numbers it's not looking good.

I'm "bending the numbers"? You're taking average incomes from one "level" and comparing them with estimates of average incomes from other folk at other "levels". That's outright dishonest

It's called being affiliated. How many NON AMWAY companies use his tools?

Strictly speaking ALL of them are not Amway. Amway doesn't buy N21 BSM, Amway affiliated business owners do.

Some of the lawsuits flying around in the past 10 years had to do with this as some people thought they weren't getting a big enough cut for their group.

ALL of those lawsuits were from one group - the one you have had experience with. But you refuse to even consider that perhaps others work differently.

Icerat, you are incredibly naive if you think that a Diamond bringing his group into affiliation with N21 would only get the money in the "public" discount schedule.

ROFL! I never said anything like that. Business is business and deals will be done. That discount schedule is not "public" btw, except for the fact I just made it public . I'm talking about what's typical, and you insist on taking particular groups or individuals and claiming they apply to all.

Dude, it's up to you to show your AMO is different. Frankly you aren't high enough in the hierarchy to have any real information to show us.

You have no idea where in the "hierarchy" I am. What we do know is that YOU have no knowledge at all outside one group and pretending you do.

Come back when you have some financial data from real business.

Seen 'em, got 'em.

I have direct experience as someone supplying software to big pins.

How many of the 5000 or so Diamonds did you supply software to?

Again, maybe we should crunch some numbers using your price break schedule above but I bet it's hard to get it as low as $25k.

Well, we've already seen how you like to count incomparable things and pretend they are the same. So go ahead and crunch.

You are simply brainwashed here, another victim of the scam.

blah blah blah

I've seen many complaints about N21.

yup, sure you have.

Anyway, it's up to you to show that N21 is different from any of the others.

Why? I never claimed N21 was different from all the others. You're the one claiming all the others are the same as Yager and his offshoots (namely BWW/WWDB)

BWW, WWDB and Dexter's AMO are all total scams, do you deny this? Can you point out any others besides N21 that you think are not scams?

I don't have enough experience with them to say. Unlike yourself I make no claims about things I know nothing about.

I do however have good friends with WWDB and no, I don't think it's a scam. They provide some great products and services. Whether they were a scam (how many years ago?) when you had experiences with them, I've no idea.

Bottom line, you are being scammed like everyone else and you really have no idea where all those dollars are going.

Bottom line - I buy products from N21 that I think are value for money and are cheaper than buying the same or similar products from other sources.

Yup, definitely a scam :

Not really. For example we do a lot of voice work including hiring SAG actors, editing the voice, localization to different countries etc. My last product shipped with Chinese, Korean, English, French, Italian, German, Russian and a few others. The amount of edited, translated and recorded VO was quite large and it's simple not that expensive to do this stuff. Events themselves are a little expensive on a per $ basis but they do charge a lot more for an event than a CD.

So if you have experience in these areas, why do pretend that BSM companies have no expenses?

Yager does tend to use Platinums and up to run the events.

Do you even know Dexter Yager doesn't even run Internet Services any more?

However, you still need security, janitorial etc etc at those events. Anyway, they charge enough to cover this stuff and still have plenty left over. Compare the price to an average rock concert (these make millions !!).

Why not compare to companies that offer similar services? Like other companies that offer training and motivation to network marketers. In fact, I did just that last year - Network 21 vs the competition: a price comparison

Then show me where EVERY CENT goes from the tools business in N21.

Show me where EVERY CENT goes in the Amway business.

In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is whether they provide products and services I think are value for money. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy from them.

Pretty simple really.

 

[NewtonTrino]

In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is whether they provide products and services I think are value for money. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy from them.

Ambots all sound the same. This is because they are brainwashed to think the above is true. This has a lot of similarities to arguments you will hear from religious believers (especially the nutcase types that give money to people like Benny Hinn).

Everyone reading this thread in posterity, please please remember that this guy isn't in on the scam. In fact he won't tell us how large his business is other than he has "residual income" from it. He also won't give us an accounting of how much money he has spent on these materials.

Anyway, there are plenty of resources on the net for smart people that was to check out this "opportunity". Keep in mind that the many ex-amway distributors that were larger pins have confirmed that the tools scam exists. I just want to add my voice to this, that I have personally seen the numbers of several of these businesses, while dealing with them as a customer of my software.

BTW One more thing. Icerat thinks WWDB isn't a scam either. That's pretty much indefensible at this point. Just a point to show how brainwashed he is.

 

[icerat]

Nothing better than ad hominems to dispute actual hard data huh? Heck, it's apparent you didn't even know Dexter Yager doesn't run Internet Services any more and hasn't for some years.

I'll try some questions one more time to see if you have the guts to answer.

When did you last have experience with WWDB?

How extensive was that experience?

 

[Almo]

Dude, you're being ridiculous. I don't even live in the US were I guess most of you folk are, so I'm not trying to recruit anyone here.

And you didn't read what I said: "potential joiners (not necessarily of his org)."

 

[icerat]

Still not trying to recruit anyone. Just trying to correct some misinformation, overgeneralizations, and misconceptions.

 

[NewtonTrino]

And I am just trying to let people know that you guys are a bunch of lying scammers so you can't ruin any more lives. Get back to us when you've made some money in this business and you can prove it isn't from tools.

 

[Thinking in CT]

MLM the FTC and a Quixar guy

I was called at work today by a person who noted my comment regarding the proposed changes in the business opportunity rule posted on the FTC web-site. The guy told me that there were exactly three critical comments posted on the FTC site, mine, his and one other.

At first the guy seemed rational. He stated that he had a Amway/Quixar "business" for 15 years but none the less supported some level of disclosure and regulation by the FTC. His point was that, while "the Company" was good it was those evil "up line" tool sellers who messed the system up! I asked him, had he, in the last 15 years ever carried a profit from his IRS schedule C over onto his 1040, and he said no. (Of course it was his fault he never made money, he has had some health problems, etc.)

I explained to him that the MLM model is inherently flawed; that NO real salesman ever tries to recruit other salesmen in his territory, in-home sales of consumer products is a tiny and shrinking market, and that the claims that the "products" are superior are bunk. He continued to speak as if Quixar was a good company and he was a "business" owner. I explained to him that he was a consumer, not a "business owner" and that his "up-line" guy most likely never made any money either. He told me about his up-line's expensive cars and home, that he claims to have seen (maybe he has just been told about them or seen pictures) I asked him if he had ever seen the Schedule C from his "up line's" 1040, he said that "they won't show you that". 'Nuf said.. I told the guy I was busy and got off the phone. One born every minute.

 

[icerat]

The guy told me that there were exactly three critical comments posted on the FTC site, mine, his and one other.

Bet it was S.J. aka "Tex". Anyway, that's not correct. There were more than 3 comments critical of MLM submitted to the FTC. Not many though, and an awful lot more in support.

At first the guy seemed rational.

S.J. aka "Tex" seems rational until you get to know him.

I explained to him that the MLM model is inherently flawed; that NO real salesman ever tries to recruit other salesmen in his territory

Wow - so shop owners NEVER recruit other salespeople into their stores? I must have imagined it ....

Seriously, do you have a clue how MLM works? Sales folk you recruit are more analoguous to employing additional sales staff than they are to competition. I've explained this numerous times on this thread. You make more sales buy having further sales people - therefore you make more money. It's really not that tough to understand, please try harder.

in-home sales of consumer products is a tiny and shrinking market

Well, of course you'd actually check the data before you said that wouldn't you? So it must be true!

US direct sales (source)-

Oops. Maybe you meant globally? (source)

Hmmm. Guess you must have just meant in your house?

and that the claims that the "products" are superior are bunk.

Yup, sure are -

• Artistry - a Top 5 best selling Prestige Brand
• eSpring receives Product of the Year Award
• eSpring - the only home water system certified to remove more than 140 contaminants
• eSpring - A Reader's Digest "most trusted brand"
• Nutrilite (Nutriway) - A Readers Digest Most Trusted Brand
• eSpring and Nutrilite win Reader's Digest Consumer Awards for the third year running
• Nutrilite - First dietary supplements to be certified by NSF International
• Nutrilite/Nutriway - the world's leading brand of vitamins, minerals and dietary supplements
• Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest hurdler, Liu Xiang
• Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest man, Asafa Powell
• Nutrilite/Nutriway tops survey in customer satisfaction
• Amway's SA8 with BioQuest tops Consumer Reports comparison

Sure are lousy products

 

[JonnyFive]

Seriously, do you have a clue how MLM works? Sales folk you recruit are more analoguous to employing additional sales staff than they are to competition. I've explained this numerous times on this thread. You make more sales buy having further sales people - therefore you make more money. It's really not that tough to understand, please try harder.

Why do you keep comparing IBOs to sales staff, anyway? Aren't IBOs at least somewhat independent of the upline? Aren't they able to recruit downline themselves? Aren't sales staff controlled by their employers to a far greater degree than Amway IBOs?

What measures are upline able to take if downline is starting to saturate a sales territory? Can they move downline to a different territory? Prevent them from hiring their own downline? Fire them?

See, all of those things are options for sales staff, even commissioned sales staff.

You've explained it, but that doesn't make it true.

US direct sales (source)-

[snipped images]
Hmmm. Guess you must have just meant in your house?

That's pretty good, but it's a tiny fraction of the roughly 3.88 trillion dollars (that excludes food services, but includes automotive, you can get the full numbers in the PDF I link to below) in retail sales recorded in 2006. In the United States.

http://www.census.gov/svsd/retlann/pdf/sales.pdf

Which means that the direct sales recorded by the DSA (which is all direct selling, although face-to-face is a pretty big chunk of it) were something approaching 0.8% the dollar amount of retail sales.

Yup, sure are -

Okay.

Artistry - a Top 5 best selling Prestige Brand
eSpring receives Product of the Year Award

Claims of sales awards, or winning an award from a particular organization, don't really bolster claims of "superiority" in an objective way. What about objective tests? Cost considerations when compared to performance? Studies of actual real-world usefulness versus paper features?

Now, the NSF stuff was kind of interesting. NSF certification, according to the listings on their web sites, is about verifying the claims of the manufacturer. It doesn't mean the product is awesome, or the best, or a great deal - it simply means the claims about it are true.

Nutrilite - First dietary supplements to be certified by NSF International

Oddly enough, NSF certifies a couple hundred different nutritional supplements (and water filters, and other products). This statement is a complete non-issue, basically saying "Amway vitamins won't kill you or make you sick!" It has absolutely nothing to do with them being superior, only showing that Amway is non-deceptive.

Moreover, a search of the NSF's current web site does not show Nutrilite products as certified. That article was written almost two years ago - any idea what happened? Did the brand name change by any chance, or did they lose certification for some other reason?

Nutrilite/Nutriway - the world's leading brand of vitamins, minerals and dietary supplements

Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest hurdler, Liu Xiang

Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest man, Asafa Powell [/quote]

These are appeals to popularity. They don't make Amway products better, simply show that some people believe they are better.

Nutritionally, there isn't much difference when it comes to vitamin supplements. The industry is a festering stink-hole of BS claims and nonsense, so maybe that's not the best thing to focus on.

Nutrilite/Nutriway tops survey in customer satisfaction

Again, this doesn't really support any kind of "my products are objectively a better deal" stuff. All it says is that, according to the survey on that web site, the products satisfied the customers. That does nothing to show that the price/performance index of the product was better.

Amway's SA8 with BioQuest tops Consumer Reports comparison

This completely twists the meaning of the CR report. The basic thrust of the CR report was "yes, the Amway stuff worked very well, but several brands offered very similar performance at less than half the cost." It's also worth noting that CR did not award the Amway product a "best buy," even though it was highly rated. Keep in mind that CR considers price when awarding recommendations, even if the product did well on the tests. Someone not accustomed to reading CR reports might get the impression they thought Amway's product was the best deal - they clearly did not.

The article you linked tries to weasel out of this by wondering how the CR article calculated the cost of usage. That's pretty damn weak. They also go on about how one of the "best buys" is only from members-only Costco, so they should compare the members-only price of Amway.

Okay, but the listed cost for that detergent is only $0.12 per load, which is a fifth of the listed cost of the Amway brand. Even at the members' only price - even at the optimistically calculated members'-only price on the pro-Amway web site, it's still two and a half times as expensive.

Plus, if you want to compare Amway's "direct" price, why wouldn't you compare it to the distributor price of Tide or whatever? I'm guessing that the cost would be dramatically less with the retail markup taken down a peg.

Oh yes, and the next top choices can be purchased at any retail store and cost half what the Amway brand did. Or, if you want, they cost roughly the same as the special members-only price. Except you don't have to pay shipping, and you don't have to sign up for Amway to buy Tide HE.

Sure are lousy products

No one said they were lousy. All that was said was that they weren't "superior" to comparable retail products. I agree - they don't seem to be bad products, just overpriced products.

 

[icerat]

Why do you keep comparing IBOs to sales staff, anyway? Aren't IBOs at least somewhat independent of the upline? Aren't they able to recruit downline themselves? Aren't sales staff controlled by their employers to a far greater degree than Amway IBOs?

Yes, which is anadvantange. The analogy with sales staff however is directly relevant to the claims about downline being "competition".

What measures are upline able to take if downline is starting to saturate a sales territory? Can they move downline to a different territory? Prevent them from hiring their own downline? Fire them?

Why would they need to? First of all, if the downline can "hire their own" then by definition it's not saturated (unless it's a customer converting to an IBO). Secondly, if it's saturated that downline is free to move or fire themselves (and get a full refund). Why would the upline need to take any action? It's effectively self monitoring.

That's pretty good, but it's a tiny fraction of the roughly 3.88 trillion dollars (that excludes food services, but includes automotive, you can get the full numbers in the PDF I link to below) in retail sales recorded in 2006. In the United States.

Yup, but the claim was it's shrinking. Clearly it is not.


Claims of sales awards, or winning an award from a particular organization, don't really bolster claims of "superiority" in an objective way. What about objective tests? Cost considerations when compared to performance? Studies of actual real-world usefulness versus paper features?[/QUOTE]

The NSF certifications clearly apply to "superiority" - if the eSpring does something others don't in terms of water purification, it's clearly "superior", as do the Consumer Reports testing of SA8 and to a lesser extent the EuroMonitor assessment of Artistry as being in the "prestige" category.

Consumer Satisfaction surveys are an objective view of what consumers think of the products, which from a business perspective is actually more important than the actual benefits of the product. It's reasonable to assume however that consumers are generally more satisfied but products they perceive offer better value.

Moreover, a search of the NSF's current web site does not show Nutrilite products as certified. That article was written almost two years ago - any idea what happened? Did the brand name change by any chance, or did they lose certification for some other reason?

Nutrilite decided it wasn't worth the money recertifying every year. Personally I think they should have, but I don't run the company.

Nutritionally, there isn't much difference when it comes to vitamin supplements. The industry is a festering stink-hole of BS claims and nonsense, so maybe that's not the best thing to focus on.

In general I agree with you (this is an area of which I have a deal of expertise), however Nutrilite is significantly different in their approach to virtually all other supplement manufacturers, which is one reason I support them. Once I started to do the research I was quite astounded at what they're doing, and clinical support to back it up.

Again, this doesn't really support any kind of "my products are objectively a better deal" stuff.

It's impossible to make that claim about any product, unless your comparing exactly the same product from different sources. Value, or "better deal" is inherently a subjective thing.

This completely twists the meaning of the CR report. The basic thrust of the CR report was "yes, the Amway stuff worked very well, but several brands offered very similar performance at less than half the cost."

13% better performance is similar? They also got a number of factors wrong, including the price, and claiming it was only available via online purchase.

Someone not accustomed to reading CR reports might get the impression they thought Amway's product was the best deal - they clearly did not.

Oh, so now it's back to subjective measures? It's was an objective measure of cleaning ability. The SA8 was clearly superior. It also has other benefits not judged by CR. In the end though, value is subjective.

Plus, if you want to compare Amway's "direct" price, why wouldn't you compare it to the distributor price of Tide or whatever? I'm guessing that the cost would be dramatically less with the retail markup taken down a peg.

Amway's "direct" price is available to anyone, Tide's distributor price is not. You also don't necessarily have to pay shipping. I don't charge shipping to any of my customers

No one said they were lousy. All that was said was that they weren't "superior" to comparable retail products. I agree - they don't seem to be bad products, just overpriced products.

Do a price comparison of Artistry (more than a third of Amway's business), to the other brands that have been independently judged to be in the same category. You will find that Artistry is clearly cheaper.

Nutrilite, more than half Amway's business, is a different story altogether and not something I want to get into here. They're not "normal" vitamin supplements.

 

[Thinking in CT]

Mlm Bs

Mr. Icerat:

The "source" of all your data and charts is:"The World Federation of Direct Selling Associations". A MLM industry PR group. I.e BS!!

And by the way, your stupid analogy that recruiting more "down line" is the same as a store hiring more sales clerks, because more sales people = more sales.....now just THINK about that for a minute....that must be why my local Walmart just hired 10,000 more clerks so they will generate more sales!!... wait, hey, they didn't just hire 10,000 more clerks...stupid Walmart!

(n.b. this is the last response to icerat from me...honest...I'm through!)

 

[JonnyFive]

Yes, which is an advantange. The analogy with sales staff however is directly relevant to the claims about downline being "competition".

Maybe a better analogy would be commissioned field sales, but it's still structurally different.

Why would they need to? First of all, if the downline can "hire their own" then by definition it's not saturated (unless it's a customer converting to an IBO).

Eh? What does the ability to recruit distributors have to do with actual market saturation? Is this coming back to the whole "every distributor is a customer/their own customer" thing, or do you mean something else?

Secondly, if it's saturated that downline is free to move or fire themselves (and get a full refund). Why would the upline need to take any action? It's effectively self monitoring.

Because the upline is in a better position to observe the sales trends and control their overall territory. In traditional sales models, that's part of the main role of sales management.

What are the conditions of the refund, anyway? Amway compensates for non-product costs and time as well now?

Yup, but the claim was it's shrinking. Clearly it is not.

That was part of the claim, yes. The other part was that it was tiny. Objectively speaking, compared to retail sales, it is tiny. Less than one percent.

The revenue from good ol' Microsoft from a similar period (FY 6/06-6/07) was around 50 billion dollars, which is about one and a half times that of the entire direct selling industry.

The NSF certifications clearly apply to "superiority" - if the eSpring does something others don't in terms of water purification, it's clearly "superior", as do the Consumer Reports testing of SA8 and to a lesser extent the EuroMonitor assessment of Artistry as being in the "prestige" category.

If by "superiority" you mean "does what they say," I suppose. The issue of water filtration is actually quite a sticky ball of wax, particularly in the developed world with clean drinking water. There's a lot of scamming and snake oil, but that's a pretty big topic by itself. I avoided the issue on purpose - I'd rather not spend a lot of my time talking about drinking water filtration right now.

I don't know enough about EuroMonitor or what they do to assign a value to their "prestige" category. Would you care to expand my knowledge of their system of ratings and how it is determined? Are they using testing or customer-satisfaction based ratings? What's the deal?

Consumer Satisfaction surveys are an objective view of what consumers think of the products, which from a business perspective is actually more important than the actual benefits of the product. It's reasonable to assume however that consumers are generally more satisfied but products they perceive offer better value.

I didn't say anything about a business perspective. I was talking about the closest objective measure of a product's quality possible. In that case, I could care less what the customers think... I'm more interested in how a product performs in testing versus price if you want to make claims about product superiority.

Nutrilite decided it wasn't worth the money recertifying every year. Personally I think they should have, but I don't run the company.

I guess it was worth doing it once to get the talking point.

So companies need to pay for recertification? Interesting... that adjusts my views of the NSF certification a bit.

In general I agree with you (this is an area of which I have a deal of expertise), however Nutrilite is significantly different in their approach to virtually all other supplement manufacturers, which is one reason I support them. Once I started to do the research I was quite astounded at what they're doing, and clinical support to back it up.

You're being very vague. Could you please cite said claims and clinical support?

It's impossible to make that claim about any product, unless your comparing exactly the same product from different sources. Value, or "better deal" is inherently a subjective thing.

This is simply not true. You can measure how well something does what it is supposed to do. This is done all the time with comparable products: cars, detergeants, paints, nutritional supplements, appliances... you name it. There are well established objective measures of quality in a number of categories, and groups (like CR) dedicated to applying those as fairly as possible for the benefit of the consumers at large.

13% better performance is similar?

Yes, especially considering the scale of the data and the high performance of both (not to mention that CR seems to have used a worst-case scenario for their tests). Also, 13% better performance at 200% worse cost is hardly a good tradeoff.

They also got a number of factors wrong, including the price, and claiming it was only available via online purchase.

Yeah... about the price. It's either CR's calculated per-load price or some guy's estimate based on something else. Does anyone have something to better support either estimate? Did CR use the manufacturer-recommended amount and the other person use the "total number of loads" or something?

Oh, so now it's back to subjective measures? It's was an objective measure of cleaning ability. The SA8 was clearly superior. It also has other benefits not judged by CR. In the end though, value is subjective.

I'm talking about value as in price/performance, however you want to quantify that.

What other benefits might those be?

Amway's "direct" price is available to anyone, Tide's distributor price is not. You also don't necessarily have to pay shipping. I don't charge shipping to any of my customers

Okay.

No, Amway's "direct" price is available to anyone selling Amway products. Similarly, Tide's distributor price (note: not wholesale price but the price to small volume distributors) is available to anyone selling Tide willing to buy in small-level bulk.

Do a price comparison of Artistry (more than a third of Amway's business), to the other brands that have been independently judged to be in the same category. You will find that Artistry is clearly cheaper.

I don't know enough about this business and cannot find sufficient objective data to do this, which is why I have avoided doing so.

Nutrilite, more than half Amway's business, is a different story altogether and not something I want to get into here. They're not "normal" vitamin supplements.

Oh, they're not, are they? What claims do they make, and what do they have to back them up?

Maybe you could start another thread in the science/math/technology section, or general skepticism to talk about the vitamins.

 

[The Atheist]

Mr. Icerat:

The "source" of all your data and charts is:"The World Federation of Direct Selling Associations". A MLM industry PR group.

I'd long since given up looking at them, so good spot - I love that kind of thing. I've seen a lot of it lately; Wildcat quoting NORML on marijuana facts and Larsen quoting.... himself! (unsurprisingly)

And by the way, your stupid analogy that recruiting more "down line" is the same as a store hiring more sales clerks, because more sales people = more sales.....now just THINK about that for a minute....that must be why my local Walmart just hired 10,000 more clerks so they will generate more sales!!... wait, hey, they didn't just hire 10,000 more clerks...stupid Walmart!

You caught my eye with that, because your premise is right, but your target's wrong. Walmart doesn't fit, because they're a store. An excellent comparison would be a van salesman - to either business or domestic customers. I deal with several companies which are highly successful at generating product sales from the back of a van. None of them suddenly decide to increase sales by hiring another 50 salespeople.

(n.b. this is the last response to icerat from me...honest...I'm through!)

I did that a while back, but I will say this to icerat:

I praised your perseverance previously, which you immediately took - and quite rightly so.

Just imagine: if you could bring the passion and perseverance to a real business/job, how well could you be doing? (And making a lot more money than selling some penny-ante system and drawing the same circles on the same pieces of paper)

I'm just giving you the benefit of quarter of a century of dealing with people and their jobs and financial health. Of all the hundreds and hundreds of people I've seen sucked into Amway and MLM, not one of them has made a success out of it. On the other hand, I've watched people start part-time businesses themselves which have grown to be multi-million dollar enterprises employing 50-100 people, or simply have career growth to senior management. Not one of those people would touch MLM with a barge-pole.

Please, if you really want to be a success, would your time be better spent actually getting out there and doing something, or in here, fruitlessly defending a system which has had its flaws pointed out most ably in this thread? Get over yourself, get a decent job selling and forget about MLM. Amway was going to be the Way of the Future, which it demonstrably isn't and I've labelled it the Way of the Credulous.

You're living proof - a smart, motivated bloke, but credulous enough not to see the obvious fishhook that if you tried harder elsewhere, you'd be more successful and have far fewer opponents.

Each to his own...

 

[icerat]

Mr. Icerat:

The "source" of all your data and charts is:"The World Federation of Direct Selling Associations". A MLM industry PR group. I.e BS!!

Oh good grief. The data is sourced from each individual country and supplied on the site. Individual countries explain their data sources on their websites, generally independently assessed or government statistics. It's all accounted for and verifiable.

The number of conspiracy theorists on this website is surprisingly high

And by the way, your stupid analogy that recruiting more "down line" is the same as a store hiring more sales clerks, because more sales people = more sales.....now just THINK about that for a minute....that must be why my local Walmart just hired 10,000 more clerks so they will generate more sales!!... wait, hey, they didn't just hire 10,000 more clerks...stupid Walmart!

WalMart *did* hire more clerks, but they hire them in different locations. Same as us. If WalMart had too many folk in an area, the sales volume wouldn't follow and no profit would be made. If Amway had too many folk in an area, the sales volume wouldn't follow and no profit would be made.

It's no different.

 

[icerat]

Just imagine: if you could bring the passion and perseverance to a real business/job, how well could you be doing? (And making a lot more money than selling some penny-ante system and drawing the same circles on the same pieces of paper)

Ummm ... I own three other more traditional businesses apart from my Amway business. I have founded and sold a number of other companies. I'm doing just fine thank you.

I'm just giving you the benefit of quarter of a century of dealing with people and their jobs and financial health. Of all the hundreds and hundreds of people I've seen sucked into Amway and MLM, not one of them has made a success out of it.

I'd I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people join Amway and make a great success of it, including a number of close friends.

On the other hand, I've watched people start part-time businesses themselves which have grown to be multi-million dollar enterprises employing 50-100 people, or simply have career growth to senior management.

And I've seen people do the same. I've also seen folk start businesses and end up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and I've seen folk hit senior management and burn out.

Not one of those people would touch MLM with a barge-pole.

A good friend of mine (new him before Amway), a very smart man (topped his school and university course) and also a successful traditional business owner and Amway Emerald once said "there's only 2 reasons people aren't interested in the Amway business model - one is they're a criminal at heart and not interested in earning money legally, the other is they don't understand it"

If it operated the way I've seen people here think it does, I wouldn't touch MLM with a barge-pole either.

Please, if you really want to be a success, would your time be better spent actually getting out there and doing something, or in here, fruitlessly defending a system which has had its flaws pointed out most ably in this thread? Get over yourself, get a decent job selling and forget about MLM. [/QUOTE]

Only ever had one job, resigned it well over a decade ago. No thanks. If want to spend my time on my hobby of correcting misconceptions about MLM, I can, and do.

Amway was going to be the Way of the Future, which it demonstrably isn't and I've labelled it the Way of the Credulous.

Do you believe every TV advertisements hyperbole about their products? Why do you believe some dudes hyperbole about Amway? I doubt direct selling will ever be a majority of retailing. Doesn't mean there's not a lot of money to be made.

You're living proof - a smart, motivated bloke, but credulous enough not to see the obvious fishhook that if you tried harder elsewhere, you'd be more successful and have far fewer opponents.

As someone who has done and is doing both traditional businesses and MLM (and continues to do both, in the middle of developing a business plan and budget for a new company this month) - done properly, Amway is easier and gives better long-term returns on the time investment. It's also truly great products, a hell of a lot of fun and very rewarding.

Each to his own...

Indeed. It's not for everyone, it's for anyone.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Icerat sounds like a bunch of Amway tape snippets stuck together.

 

[balrog666]

Icerat sounds like a bunch of Amway tape snippets stuck together.

He probably learned it all from those tapes and books and sales aids and meetings he spends so much on. Each month. Every month. Forever. Until he wises up. Or until he runs out of money.

 

[icerat]

And so it goes. Can't argue the facts, so denigration and claims I am lying is all you are left with.

Of course, we already know from his refusal to answer direct questions that NewtonTrino hasn't even listened to much in the way of "Amway tapes" (if any - Amway itself doesn't produce that much in the way of tapes). So how the hell would he even know what they sound like? He doesn't know. But like most everything else regarding this topic (unfortunately a common situation) he thinks he knows everything. Indeed he's sure of it. There's nothing like certainty to help you through your battles with reality!