Multi-level Marketing - the way of credulous.

[NewtonTrino]

Well, I'm hiding my identity for one.

Other than that I'm not making any assertions about how great my business is. If you want to talk about how great my business is I'll gladly talk to you for hours about how the business works, where the money is, how much I make etc. Especially if I was going to try and get you involved as a partner!

 

[icerat]

Nice dodge full of straw men NewtonTrino. All I'm trying to ascertain is how recent and extensive your claimed experience is, and you refuse to answer.

Clearly you have something to hide.

 

[NewtonTrino]

My experience is both recent (as in my Dad is ACTIVELY building the business and I have many people I associate with through him that are active) and extensive. Most of my personal experience dates from the 90's when I was writing computer software for use by distributors (including people with large large large groups including one diamond who eventually split off his own AMO!). In addition I associated with many pins and their kids growing up going to rallies every weekend listening to all of the speakers, listening to all of the tapes, reading many of the books and actively prospecting with my Dad over a period of almost 30 years.

Part of my argument is that this "new" breed of AMO's (Amway Motivational Organization) like N21 is same crap, different day. The did open up some documentation on the tools business, but it's still the same scam. Still the same brainwashing crap, still the same money going down the toilet for functions, books etc. They had no choice but to admit that the tools business existed!! So they limp along trying to make it look more legit, but it's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Obviously they have you convinced. Bottom line, they are still making bigtime dollars from it. Of course the Corp. is also trying to hide the fact that growth in NA is close to non-existent so even if you sign up as a new distributor today you better know some people in India or China.

My second argument is that even if the "new breed" IS better that it's still a crap opportunity that has been tainted badly enough by the kingpins and their AMO's that anyone who is smart will stay away.

Caveat Emptor people.

 

[icerat]

Most of my personal experience dates from the 90's when I was writing computer software for use by distributors (including people with large large large groups including one diamond who eventually split off his own AMO!).

Right, so personal experience more than a decade old, and it appears just from one LOS/LOA and it's offshoots.

In addition I associated with many pins and their kids growing up going to rallies every weekend listening to all of the speakers, listening to all of the tapes, reading many of the books and actively prospecting with my Dad over a period of almost 30 years.

All from the same LOS/LOA and it's offshoots.

In how many different countries?

Part of my argument is that this "new" breed of AMO's (Amway Motivational Organization) like N21 is same crap, different day.

N21 has been around 20 years. Not exactly "new".

The did open up some documentation on the tools business, but it's still the same scam. Still the same brainwashing crap, still the same money going down the toilet for functions, books etc. They had no choice but to admit that the tools business existed!!

Uhuh. I ask again.

How many N21 CDs have you listened to? How many N21 Seminars have you attended? Can you name 5 books recommended by N21 in the last 5 years?

And answer the same for MM, Schwartz, Heckel, Top4 and any others that have nothing to do with the one corner of the world you're father is associated with.

Don't dodge. Answer. How much experience do you have with all these other organizations you're making claims about?

You know one thing that has always amazed me? Folk claim the tools business is a secret, and then in the next breath they do things like quote a 24 year old article in Forbes to confirm there's money made from it. Some secret.

Me, I was surprised to find people were surprised there was money in it. Seems pretty obvious to me that folk don't run businesses for nothing. Folk don't do the speaking circuit for nothing. Others apparently are surprised by this.

So they limp along trying to make it look more legit, but it's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Obviously they have you convinced. Bottom line, they are still making bigtime dollars from it. Of course the Corp. is also trying to hide the fact that growth in NA is close to non-existent so even if you sign up as a new distributor today you better know some people in India or China.

Blah blah blah. More secrets. They publish their sales figures every year, but NT here says they're hiding the fact they've been struggling in the US. Yup, hiding it in press releases and websites, where noone will ever find it!

Of course, I'm sure he also claims the corp is doing nothing about folk who do the wrong thing, and ignores the fact the corp has "kicked out" dozens and dozens of "high level" folk the last decade. Any rational person would think that might affect their sales ....

My second argument is that even if the "new breed" IS better that it's still a crap opportunity that has been tainted badly enough by the kingpins and their AMO's that anyone who is smart will stay away.

You haven't made an argument, you've just made lots of emotional claims, apparently backed by little more than some experience limited to just one part of Amway in just one country.

 

[balrog666]

My experience is both recent (as in my Dad is ACTIVELY building the business and I have many people I associate with through him that are active) and extensive. Most of my personal experience dates from the 90's when I was writing computer software for use by distributors (including people with large large large groups including one diamond who eventually split off his own AMO!). In addition I associated with many pins and their kids growing up going to rallies every weekend listening to all of the speakers, listening to all of the tapes, reading many of the books and actively prospecting with my Dad over a period of almost 30 years.

Part of my argument is that this "new" breed of AMO's (Amway Motivational Organization) like N21 is same crap, different day. The did open up some documentation on the tools business, but it's still the same scam. Still the same brainwashing crap, still the same money going down the toilet for functions, books etc. They had no choice but to admit that the tools business existed!! So they limp along trying to make it look more legit, but it's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Obviously they have you convinced. Bottom line, they are still making bigtime dollars from it. Of course the Corp. is also trying to hide the fact that growth in NA is close to non-existent so even if you sign up as a new distributor today you better know some people in India or China.

My second argument is that even if the "new breed" IS better that it's still a crap opportunity that has been tainted badly enough by the kingpins and their AMO's that anyone who is smart will stay away.

Caveat Emptor people.

Yep, perfect example of the blindness of the cult personality here. It's just amazing how someone can ignore the evidence accumulated over years of the simple mendacity and outright stupidity of such an organization. This thread should be preserved and made available to all comers for the next 10 years.

 

[icerat]

but you wouldn't want to risk weakening the "argument" by actually requiring any evidence to support it, would you?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Evidence? Are you totally on crack?

There are literally THOUSANDS of people who have been scammed that will admit it! (probably 100's of 1000's who don't even want to talk about it lol) Go read online there are many many sites talking about people's experience in "the business". The evidence is absolutely overwhelming that the big pins have been scamming millions of dollars from people by getting them to buy millions of brainwashing tapes and attend thousands of brainwashing functions. Much of this is documented because of the lawsuits flying back and forth in addition to the many people that have gotten to see the books of different big pins (including myself, remember I'm not arguing second hand information here!). This isn't a couple of people that are mad because they "failed" this is thousands of people including ex Emeralds, Diamonds, Platinums etc. that talk about how screwed up this business is. Multiple books have been written including Merchants of Deception and Ruth Carter's book. I know they aren't about N21 and it's "different". Ya right, they just realized they needed to be a bit more wily because the suckers were figuring out the game.

Where the HELL do you get off saying there is no evidence? The burden of proof is on you to show that Amway and any of their motivational organizations like N21 are not scams. So far you have refused to tell us ANYTHING about the financials you can expect. How much do they recommend you spend per month of books, cd's, function and other services for example? Tell us a bit about your business to justify yourself as an "expert".

You simply aren't high enough in the hierarchy to know ANYTHING about where the money goes from all this. Do you truly believe that the tools volume discount chart you showed us is complete? Are you really that much of a brainwashed fool?

 

[Almo]

I wonder if he thinks continuing to argue this here will server to show potential joiners (not necessarily of his org) how good it is. At best I think reading this thread would generate ambivalence. Well, maybe not. The ones who would be interested after reading it are exactly the kind of people the organization wants.

 

[icerat]

Evidence? Are you totally on crack?
There are literally THOUSANDS of people who have been scammed that will admit it!

Then why don't they? The FTC just investigated MLMs as part of their proposal regarding a Business Opportunities Rule and found there was so few complaints regarding MLM that it wasn't worth worrying about them for inclusion.

Even if true, let's do the math. In the last 15 years there's probably been around 10 million folk, just in the US, who have been interested enough to at least sign up and check out Amway. Let's say your "thousands" is ten thousand.

That's 0.1%. Yup, huge problem. And that's assuming there's as many as 10,000 who think they've been scammed, a claim of which there is little evidence to support, given Quixtar get's single digit complaints a year to the BBB, the FTC found so few problems as to not even warrent concern.

(probably 100's of 1000's who don't even want to talk about it lol) Go read online there are many many sites talking about people's experience in "the business".

I've done that, and I've read *all* of them. Amquix, which claims to be the biggest site, posts about 30 complaints a year and that's from all of the english speaking world, not just the US. Most of Amquix's emails are from people saying "was checking this out and found your site!"

What's more, an analysis I and another person undertook of Amquix and Webraw, another site, found that virtually all of the stories published came from the same LOS and it's affiliates. Probably not coincidentally the same one you've had experience with.

A recent Australian-focussed website asked for people's australian amway stories, and was promoted on the other "critics" sites. After a couple of months they started reprinting old stories they found elsewhere. There call for horror stories eventually elicited ONE person with a negative.

The evidence is absolutely overwhelming that the big pins have been scamming millions of dollars from people by getting them to buy millions of brainwashing tapes and attend thousands of brainwashing functions.

What evidence? >95% of the "big pins" have never been mentioned anywhere on the internet with regard complaints, nor in any lawsuits.

Much of this is documented because of the lawsuits flying back and forth in addition to the many people that have gotten to see the books of different big pins (including myself, remember I'm not arguing second hand information here!). This isn't a couple of people that are mad because they "failed" this is thousands of people including ex Emeralds, Diamonds, Platinums etc. that talk about how screwed up this business

Thousands? What a load of rubbish. I've read all the lawsuits I can find. If there's some hidden out there involving "thousands", then please let me know what they are.

is. Multiple books have been written including Merchants of Deception and Ruth Carter's book.

Yup, two is definitely multiple. One by a guy who has admitted telling false stories to two different newspapers, and whose "book" couldn't find a publisher so he gave it away free on the internet. The other is how old? And also self-published.

I know they aren't about N21 and it's "different". Ya right, they just realized they needed to be a bit more wily because the suckers were figuring out the game.

N21 is just one of many different organisations. Both the books you mentioned are written by people involved in the same LOS. The same one you work with, the same one involved in virtually all the lawsuits.

95% of the "big pins" and virtually all of the system organisations have no lawsuits and virtually no complaints about them.

Where the HELL do you get off saying there is no evidence? The burden of proof is on you to show that Amway and any of their motivational organizations like N21 are not scams.

I would think that decades of legal operation after being investigated by numerous governments to see if it's a scam would be that evidence. In the parliament of NSW, Australia a member asked if Amway and N21 had been investigated. The response? Yup, checked them out, hardly any complaints about them and nothing to be concerned about.

So far you have refused to tell us ANYTHING about the financials you can expect. How much do they recommend you spend per month of books, cd's, function and other services for example? Tell us a bit about your business to justify yourself as an "expert".

You keep demanding answers but refuse to give any yourself. What are you hiding? Where have I made a claim I should be listened to since I'm an "expert"? I'm citing experts, such as the FTC and other government agencies.

The answer to your question of expenses varies from country to country. The anwer also varies from individual to individual. I have people in my group who the answer would be "nothing", since given their goals it would be a waste of money.

But I'll humour you and give you the recommended "start" for a new person in N21.

Basic CEP (Continuing Education Program) - 5 downloadable MP3s, $27.95/mth
Recommended Book - varies. This months, "The Secret of Supplements" by Gloria Askew & Jerre Paquette is $19.95

In both cases, if someone can't afford it, we'd lend them the materials free of charge.

Business Building Seminar - 9 times a year 4 hour seminar, $20.

Weekend Seminar - 3 times a year, 2 days, $159-$189

Business Previews - weekly, $5-$10 depending on location.

So you're looking at around $130-$140/mth averaged over a whole year. More if you're a couple and both attend things.

The goal is to be covering these expenses (and others like travel) as quickly as possible from retailing to customers.

You simply aren't high enough in the hierarchy to know ANYTHING about where the money goes from all this. Do you truly believe that the tools volume discount chart you showed us is complete? Are you really that much of a brainwashed fool?

My sources (not just IBOs) go pretty much as high you can get, and the data is independently confirmed from other sources, and is internally consistent as well as matching what I would expect given my knowledge of their business operations.

 

[icerat]

I wonder if he thinks continuing to argue this here will server to show potential joiners (not necessarily of his org) how good it is. At best I think reading this thread would generate ambivalence. Well, maybe not. The ones who would be interested after reading it are exactly the kind of people the organization wants.

Dude, you're being ridiculous. I don't even live in the US were I guess most of you folk are, so I'm not trying to recruit anyone here.

Ambivalence would be just great. Much better than believing (and spreading) many of the myths, misconceptions, and opinions that have been stated here as factual.

 

[The Atheist]

I wonder if he thinks continuing to argue this here will server to show potential joiners (not necessarily of his org) how good it is.

Nah, he's showing the type of perseverance in the face of adversity necessary to make money out of MLM.

I'm personally thankful icerat showed up. Here's me starting a thread to show up MLMs - it works much better when someone shows up and highlights the other side.

 

[icerat]

Researchers in the field of "success" identify perseverance as possibly the #1 commonality between successful people, no matter what the field, so I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[NewtonTrino]

So you're looking at around $130-$140/mth averaged over a whole year. More if you're a couple and both attend things.

So a little bit more for the spouse might get you to $150 a month? So $150 * 12 = $1800 a year.

So if you have 1000 people in your network (e.g. a decent sized business) thats $1,800,000 a year in tool revenue. How many people does the average diamond have? How much money do they make again ($150k a year)? Even if they only took home 10% of 1000 people that's another $180k per year income (greater than 50% of their profit from tools). Realistically I think it would be more like $500k after factoring in other payouts and expenses. Keep in mind that even platinums only get a small share of this money (as evidenced by your breakdown chart).

There is a lot more money in tools than in product. Period.

 

[icerat]

So a little bit more for the spouse might get you to $150 a month? So $150 * 12 = $1800 a year.

So if you have 1000 people in your network (e.g. a decent sized business) thats $1,800,000 a year in tool revenue.

Sure, if you ignore the fact that typically less than 30% of folk buy *anything* from the system, and probably no more than 5% do all of it for a year.

How many people does the average diamond have? How much money do they make again ($150k a year)?

As per Q* Platinum Index 2004, Average IBOs per qualifed platinum is around 170. As per Team vs Q* lawsuit, Average qualified Platinums per Diamond *and above* is 32, so average IBOs per Diamond *and above* is 5440 plus some personal group.

Even if they only took home 10% of 1000 people that's another $180k per year income (greater than 50% of their profit from tools).

Yeah sure, if the Diamond is taking 100% of the profit, has zero expenses in production and distribution, and pays out 0% to downline platinums, emeralds, and Diamonds.

Is there *any* business of *any* type anywhere in the world that "perfect"?

*DIAMONDS DO NOT GET THE TOOL REVENUES*. That's a complete fantasy on your part. They get a discount/rebate based on the volume they create for the company that supplies the tools, just like pretty much any other discounting/rebate system. I gave you the scale of what is paid out, you ignored it.

You ignored how much they are paid.
You ignored how much they have to pay out.
You ignored the BSM companies and their expenses entirely.

Let's go with 10% fully active. That means say 600 "active" people total in a Diamond *and above* group (and above is important, because the average Diamond income is for Diamonds only, not "and above).

600 active people * $1800/yr = $1,080,000 in BSM *revenues*

That same group of 6000 people, using the Platinum Index statistics, generates $7,485,108 in Amway product revenues.

Realistically I think it would be more like $500k after factoring in other payouts and expenses. Keep in mind that even platinums only get a small share of this money (as evidenced by your breakdown chart).

Oh, so we take the chart for Platinums, but ignore it for Diamonds. Good one.

There is a lot more money in tools than in product. Period.

Only if you chose to live in fantasyland and ignore the reality that businesses have expenses.

Group of 6000 people, revenues only -

BSM revenues=$1,080,000
Amway product revenues=$7,485,108

Definitely a lot more in BSM. Uhuh

 

[NewtonTrino]

Dude, 5440 for Diamond and above so 1000 people actively in the network. I'm using a very conservative TEN F#$*)&#$G PERCENT profit on tools and they STILL make more money from tools than from the business.

Your own numbers bury you here dude.

BSM revenues=$1,080,000
Amway product revenues=$7,485,108

Definitely a lot more in BSM. Uhuh

Ah yes, but there is way more profit to the distributors in the tool money because the production costs are lower and they don't have to pay the corp. Add in the fact that only a small fraction of the revenue goes to anyone below a platinum and on a per-dollar basis those cut in will be making way way more profit per dollar on tools. WAY WAY more profit per dollar (and keep in mind we are working in DOLLARS not in PV here!! So it's actually even better than it looks).

Again, your own numbers bury you. If I couldn't figure out a way to make 10% selling books, tapes, cd's and function tickets I would be an idiot and that right there is enough with only 1000 people plugged in to make more off tools.

I can run this math a bunch of different way but I'm being EXTREMELY conservative. Again more likely I would think 150k from Amway income and something like 500k+ from tools.

You lose.

 

[icerat]

Dude, 5440 for Diamond and above so 1000 people actively in the network. I'm using a very conservative TEN F#$*)&#$G PERCENT profit on tools and they STILL make more money from tools than from the business.

But it's not conservative at all. You've seen the rebate schedule, a Diamond is making at most an average of maybe 5% on CD volume, less on seminar tickets.

Your own numbers bury you here dude.

Uh, nope. This was qualifed Diamonds *and above*. Founders EDC and above for example have an average Amway income of around $1.4million

Ah yes, but there is way more profit to the distributors in the tool money because the production costs are lower and they don't have to pay the corp.

The Diamonds don't produce the tools, so production costs are irrelevant, what's irrelevant is how much they have to pay the production companies. Basic logistics and costs you've chosen to ignore.

Add in the fact that only a small fraction of the revenue goes to anyone below a platinum and on a per-dollar basis those cut in will be making way way more profit per dollar on tools. WAY WAY more profit per dollar (and keep in mind we are working in DOLLARS not in PV here!! So it's actually even better than it looks).

Except I've already given you how much profit can be made "per tool" by a Diamond, and you're simply ignoring it.

Again, your own numbers bury you. If I couldn't figure out a way to make 10% selling books, tapes, cd's and function tickets I would be an idiot and that right there is enough with only 1000 people plugged in to make more off tools.

Well, I won't argue with the claim you're an idiot.

I can run this math a bunch of different way but I'm being EXTREMELY conservative. Again more likely I would think 150k from Amway income and something like 500k+ from tools.

You can come up with any number you like if you keep choosing to ignore hard data.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Sorry Icerat but your own numbers simply bury you. Your tool breakdown chart for rebates simply doesn't cover all of the profit. The expenses involved in duplicating cd's is absolutely minimal (and the functions where they record everything are themselves profit centers). Bottom line, you are being lied to about where the tools money goes and about how much of it goes to Diamonds and up. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow but do you have any other way of veryifying the numbers?

Also keep in mind that the $150 a month we are using PER COUPLE is probably low, even by your numbers. I picked a purposefully low number of distributors and a low monthly number. Withn 5000+ distributors in the network each buying $200 a month even the 5% number you want to use for profit gives you $12,000,000 in revenue and 5% of that is $600,000 in profit!!!! This is all taken from numbers you agree on.

In reality if you had 5000 distributors that were plugged in and you made more like the 30% that they should be making that's $4,000,000 in profit for a Diamond on tools. Now this might be on the high side for a regular diamond but there are many big pins that have a 90/10 split on tools vs Amway income.

Basically you have to use incredibly conservative numbers to get Amway income to be a significant part of a Diamonds compensation (note that even at Emerald the tools money is going to be significant but the way they split up the profit the real money is at Diamond (as the tool money pyramid is inverted), coincidently that's one of the most common expressions in the business, everyone always talk about how the real money is at Diamond). Oh, and $150k a year split between a couple IS NOT REAL MONEY. Real money is that $150k a year plus another $500k in tools profit.

PWNED DUDE. There is just no way you can spin this, I'm slaying you with your own numbers. Are you seriously so dense that you think I'm wrong? Even my Dad knows I'm right, he just doesn't give a **** (in my experience people in "the business" are generally not very ethical).


BTW with an EDC making $1.4M how big do you think there network is? Start multiplying these numbers with even bigger networks and the numbers go up up up.

Interestingly enough

 

[icerat]

Sorry Icerat but your own numbers simply bury you. Your tool breakdown chart for rebates simply doesn't cover all of the profit.

Of course not, and the Amway rebate schedule doesn't cover all the profit in their business either. It apparently comes as a surprise to you that Amway not only has expenses, but also makes a profit for the owners. Well, most of the time, reportedly this year in North America all profit the is being redirected into the marketing campaigns.

The BSM companies also make a profit, as you would expect. You're talking about the Diamonds as if they *are* the BSM companies. They're not. N21 for example supports over a thousand Diamonds. To the best of my knowedge it's owned by just one Diamond couple. Do they make money from it? Probably, though not everywhere. They have hundreds of staff and dozens of offices to support. The do R&D on new products. They handle legal and other issues, like getting Amway to approve material. I'm aware of a number of countries where N21 *loses* money. Like any business there willing to make a loss in the hopes it will become profitable later.

Why do you think a company producing educational materials for Amway IBOs should somehow operate different to a company producing educational materials for any other market?

The expenses involved in duplicating cd's is absolutely minimal (and the functions where they record everything are themselves profit centers). Bottom line, you are being lied to about where the tools money goes and about how much of it goes to Diamonds and up. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow but do you have any other way of veryifying the numbers?

I have independent verification. The problem isn't I'm being lied to, the problem is you are clueless about the kind of operations I'm talking about. Yes, it doesn't cost much to duplicate a CD. But you have staff who have to select and edit the material before it can be sent for duplication. You have staff who have to deal with Amway to get approval for the kind of material that needs approval. You have packaging to design and produce. You have accountants to do what accountants do. You have lawyers to do what lawyers do. You have staff to package and post out the materials. And of course you have returns and unsold stock. Then of course, like any other business you need money if you want to invest in new products or move into new markets.

It always astounds me how folk like you believe that these companies have some how managed to create some amazing business that has zero expenses except actual manufacture of the product. There's no expenses in production, just duplication. No expenses in distribution, just duplication. No expenses in R&D, just duplication. No offices, no staff, no accountants, no lawyers, no taxes, nothing.

Somehow, amazingly a magic master CD appears miraculously at a duplication company, they duplicate them and they miraculously, and without further expense, turn up in the post just for those who wanted them.

A miracle business!

Also keep in mind that the $150 a month we are using PER COUPLE is probably low, even by your numbers. I picked a purposefully low number of distributors and a low monthly number. Withn 5000+ distributors in the network each buying $200 a month even the 5% number you want to use for profit gives you $12,000,000 in revenue and 5% of that is $600,000 in profit!!!! This is all taken from numbers you agree on.

Sure, if there's 5000 distributors in the network each buying $200 a month. In which case, the statistics indicate you've got a network of at least 50000 IBOs doing well over US$60,000,000 in Amway revenue a year. You're waaaayyyy bigger than a diamond, making A LOT more than $600,000 from Amway

In reality if you had 5000 distributors that were plugged in and you made more like the 30% that they should be making that's $4,000,000 in profit for a Diamond on tools.

Yup, miracle business. Amazing. Should be studied in every business school

Now this might be on the high side for a regular diamond but there are many big pins that have a 90/10 split on tools vs Amway income.

Really .... "many"? Out of 5000 Diamonds and above, how many would it have to be to be considered "many"?

Basically you have to use incredibly conservative numbers to get Amway income to be a significant part of a Diamonds compensation (note that even at Emerald the tools money is going to be significant but the way they split up the profit the real money is at Diamond (as the tool money pyramid is inverted), coincidently that's one of the most common expressions in the business, everyone always talk about how the real money is at Diamond). Oh, and $150k a year split between a couple IS NOT REAL MONEY. Real money is that $150k a year plus another $500k in tools profit.

Anyone making 500k in BSM income is likely waayyy bigger than Diamond, and thus wayyyy bigger than $150K/yr in Amway income.

PWNED DUDE. There is just no way you can spin this, I'm slaying you with your own numbers. Are you seriously so dense that you think I'm wrong? Even my Dad knows I'm right, he just doesn't give a **** (in my experience people in "the business" are generally not very ethical).

For all I know it might be true in the small corner of the world you dealt with when you dealt with it. I can't say. I can categorically state you're wrong for the (larger) part of the Amway world I'm dealing with.

BTW with an EDC making $1.4M how big do you think there network is? Start multiplying these numbers with even bigger networks and the numbers go up up up.

Of course. A bigger business makes more money. Is this a surprise to you?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Dude you are living in dreamland.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Last post was at lunch from my iPhone, so let me be a little more clear.

Tools are different from regular product. They are produced by the AMOs (N21 in your case) and sold into the pyramid using a different compensation scheme. This scheme varies but in all cases there is more profit per $ going into the pyramid from these tools than there is from Amway product. As the Diamond and above control the creation and distribution of these products they get the lions share of the profit. Not all of them are created equal as icerat has pointed out, for example the Dornans seem to own the N21 production so there cut will be a little larger. However, they still need the cooperation of the diamonds and others in their organization so they still have to give them a reasonable cut. This will depend on the size of their business. They will get a cut from everyone that buys a seminar ticket (as well the downline emeralds and platinums also get a piece for each person in their sub-orgranization). Now although the total dollar amount of product moving through the network from Amway is greater, the profit per dollar is much much higher on tools and functions, which is why they are pushed so much. The chart relating volume discount that Icerat posted is the "cover" story.
The bottom line is that using Icerats own numbers for how much a plugged in distributor will spend on "tools" (and btw I think his numbers are on the low side) and comparing it to the amount of income an average Diamond will have from Amyway, it's obivous that there is more money in tools than product. Obviously this is going to vary for different Diamonds depending on how much leverage they have, but for the average Diamond it turns them from a low 6-figure income into a lot lot more.

Keep in mind that none of the above is under any dispute whatsoever when it comes to most AMO systems. It's just that Icerat claims his N21 group is "special" and not as bad. I personally think they are just smarter about managing their image, even for their own distributors.

Also, your ridiculous "expenses" that N21 has producing all of this material are absolutely minimal on a per-unit basis. I'm in the freakin software business and the overhead for doing this is really really small. Keep in mind that all of the other AMO's (for example Dexters) would have the same expenses and they manage to turn a rather large profit for all of the Diamonds in their system.

Basically Icerat, you are brainwashed and clueless about where the money is going. Seriously, do some of the math based on the amount of tools these guys sell and then compare it to the expenses you claim are so high. The math simply doesn't add up.

Oh, and btw, comparing this to "other" business and what they charge for education is silly. The vast majority of information here is motivational in nature, not things like selling techniques (although some of that exists). Seriously do people need to be getting new cd's, books etc EVERY SINGLE MONTH? Do they need to be attending larger functions on multiple occasions per year? These CD's, books and functions are meant to keep people momentum up and keep them brainwashed in the system.

Anyway, if you want to keep arguing the math of it we can keep going back and forth. Bottom line, if you are getting $200 a month for tools from "active" distributors and you are getting 100PV from them (and everyone "active" in their network) then you are going to be making a freakin bundle on tools.