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Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Reality Check

Penultimate Amazing
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There are a couple of plasma cosmologists on the forum (Hi Zeuzzz and maybe BeAChooser). They have been posting in various threads from their plasma cosmolgy perspective but this has lead to derailed threads.

This thread has been started so that the topic can be dicuseed in one place rather than be spread over several threads.


The questions to be answered:
  • What is Plasma Cosmology?
  • How do it's predictions fit the observed data, e.g. the CMB anisotropy?
  • What falsifiable predictions does it make?
    A scientitic theory has to make falsifiable predictions so that it can be tested to see if it is valid or not.
Perhaps Zeuzzz or BeAChooser can start by posting a concise description of Plasma Cosmology so that we have a common point to start from.

One guideline: Please no massive posts of links and quotes.
Posts with multiple topics in them make the thread confusing. Try to limit yourself to a single topic in a posting with a few links related to that topic.
 
This post I just wrote may act as a good starting point; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3667976&postcount=86

And this wikipedia page; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plasma_cosmology&oldid=88919194#cite_note-37

And this for Alfvens original approach to PC, aswell as some of Peratts material; http://plasmascience.net/tpu/papers-cosmology.html

And a few of Lerners plasma cosmology publications would make a good addition, some of which can be seen in full here; http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Eric_Lerner


It'll be interesting to see where this thread leads when I return here in the near future, but please, none of the ignorant and presumptuos comments, much of the material is beggining to become available to see online, and you dont need me to find it for you.
 
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... snip ...

Perhaps Zeuzzz or BeAChooser can start by posting a concise description of Plasma Cosmology so that we have a common point to start from.

One guideline: Please no massive posts of links and quotes.
Posts with multiple topics in them make the thread confusing. Try to limit yourself to a single topic in a posting with a few links related to that topic.
Zeuzzz said:
This post I just wrote may act as a good starting point; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...6&postcount=86

... snip ...
Um, er, ...

Zeuzzz, that post you just wrote contains ~2,000 words, 2 (long) quotes, 3 links, and 11 references (each of which is a link). The 11 references include a 178 page book, and the entire proceedings of a summer workshop.

Would you mind posting a concise description of Plasma Cosmology, please?
 
Um, er, ...

Zeuzzz, that post you just wrote contains ~2,000 words, 2 (long) quotes, 3 links, and 11 references (each of which is a link). The 11 references include a 178 page book, and the entire proceedings of a summer workshop.

Would you mind posting a concise description of Plasma Cosmology, please?


No.

Could you please post a concise description of all the concepts behind modern mainstream cosmology, please?

Of course you cant.

I'm not falling into that trap. And I cant be bothered to spend my exam time copying and pasting material here because you're too lazy to explore any of the links I have provided you with. I've already spent too much time today with that previous post on the other thread, and this discussion is not going to be productive unless I have a chance to discuss PC in its entirety.

Just do some reading, and since you think that PC is soo woo, I expect you to return here with a long list of major scientific problems with all the peer reviewed publications in the links above. Incase you missed it;

This post I just wrote may act as a good starting point; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3667976&postcount=86

And this wikipedia page; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plasma_cosmology&oldid=88919194#cite_note-37

And this for Alfvens original approach to PC, aswell as some of Peratts material; http://plasmascience.net/tpu/papers-cosmology.html

And a few of Lerners plasma cosmology publications would make a good addition, some of which can be seen in full here; http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Eric_Lerner


It'll be interesting to see where this thread leads when I return here in the near future, but please, none of the ignorant and presumptuos comments, much of the material is beggining to become available to see online, and you dont need me to find it for you.
 
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Some hard numbers would be nice, like how do you scale from Perrat's 10 cm model to a galaxy, what scales, especially the EM fields would be nice.

I will read the other post and respond where appropriate.
 
Would you mind posting a concise description of Plasma Cosmology, please?

Fascinating subject - Robinson will be pleased.

To me, it's all Greek, but it seems pretty easy to find out the basics. Probably the simplest way - and in superb format vidoes - is to start with YouTube!



(isn't using colour-enhanced pics a little sneaky?)

Zeuzzz: this seems to be an alternative theory to DM/DE? How will CERN aid/hinder you?
 
Well, this one the Perrat paper in Natural Science is a bust.
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloads/PerattPlasmaCosmology1W&I.pdf
He discusses a japernese American exploration of the CMB but he doesn't mention who did it or where? And then even worse he discusses Arp's bizzare contention that certain galaxies are associated with QSOs, using really questionable statistics.

So gosh that is such a fine article that i had to go to Wikipedia to find the ciatation
Second, in 1987 a Japanese-American team led by Andrew Lange and Paul Richards of UC Berkeley and Toshio Matsumoto of Nagoya University made an announcement that CMB was not that of a true black body. In a sounding rocket experiment, they detected an excess brightness at 0.5 and 0.7 mm wavelengths. These results cast doubt on the validity of the Big Bang theory in general and help support the Steady State theory.[2]

So what is the end of the story?

that the sounding rocket was wrong and COBE said that there was a perfect blackbody spectrum.

Arp's statitics are abysamal, he is great astrionomer and a bad statistician.
 
Fascinating subject - Robinson will be pleased.

To me, it's all Greek, but it seems pretty easy to find out the basics. Probably the simplest way - and in superb format vidoes - is to start with YouTube!



(isn't using colour-enhanced pics a little sneaky?)

Zeuzzz: this seems to be an alternative theory to DM/DE? How will CERN aid/hinder you?


I would be careful with that video, its from the documentary "thunderbolts of the gods", and although I find it all fascinating, it does not really represent plasma cosmology. Its more the speculative "electric universe" theory, which does share more similarities than differences to plasma cosmology, but often goes one step further, advocating more radical idea based on electricity and plasma in the cosmos. There was a thread here on it; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101728 There is one documentary called "cosmology quest", which I think is available on youtube, which is mainly a critique of the Big Bang, and does have a small section on some plasma cosmology concepts right at the end.

Anyways, I'm all done for the day. Good night.
 
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DeiRenDopa said:
Um, er, ...

Zeuzzz, that post you just wrote contains ~2,000 words, 2 (long) quotes, 3 links, and 11 references (each of which is a link). The 11 references include a 178 page book, and the entire proceedings of a summer workshop.

Would you mind posting a concise description of Plasma Cosmology, please?
No.

Could you please post a concise description of all the concepts behind modern mainstream cosmology, please?

Of course you cant.
What makes you so sure?

In any case, RC asked for a "concise description of Plasma Cosmology".

If I recall correctly, you are on record as saying that PC requires no physics beyond that found in any modern, standard, textbook.

So surely you have avoided addressing my post by means of a very common PC proponent tactic: change the subject.

No matter; I accept your challenge, and have generalised it, and made it public: Concise description of the Big Bang Theory (or ΛCDM models), possible? or not?
I'm not falling into that trap. And I cant be bothered to spend my exam time copying and pasting material here because you're too lazy to explore any of the links I have provided you with. I've already spent too much time today with that previous post on the other thread, and this discussion is not going to be productive unless I have a chance to discuss PC in its entirety.

Just do some reading, and since you think that PC is soo woo, I expect you to return here with a long list of major scientific problems with all the peer reviewed publications in the links above. Incase you missed it;
.

Cool.

Here we go then.

I've read almost all of the material you have posted, both in this thread and in at least two others in the JREF forum.

I have been unable to find any material - at all - published since the first WMAP team papers presenting their results - on how PC accounts for the observed CMB, in the following respects:

1. the blackbody SED (spectral energy distribution)

2. the dipole

3. the angular power spectrum.

In each case, I mean the a quantitative account, with estimates of goodness of fit (or some other statistic), and explicit derivation from clearly stated, and with referenced sources, specific, PC cosmological model(s) being used.

If you know of any such materials, would you be kind enough to cite them?

If you do not know of any such materials, would you be kind enough to not waffle, obfuscate, do a dance, or otherwise avoid saying, simply, that you do not know of any such?
 
Sorry the Perrat article was from the World and I :the second one

:http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloads/PerattPlasmaCosmology2W&I.pdf

I have to question saying that computer model are the way to observe EM forces as a distance, there should be direct observations as well.

And that does not mean comparing a toy model simulation to observation.

However he says not that there are not black holes but that he has suggested a means by which the effects can be produced without the black hole. Except for one thing, you still have the orbital mass observations that suggest black holes do exist. No reason you couldn't have plasma structures around a black hole either.

And the infamous galaxy rotation curves, his obtained by comparing the gravitational attraction and EM forces on electrons. gee are stars really just giant electrons? I think not. He also wimps out, he does not give a field strength to make his model work, he just suggests that it might. I think he too is afraid that the magnetic field that would have to exist has not been shown.

Yes to filamentary structures in the galaxy, yes to plasma. No to imaginary large scale magnetic fields that have not been observed yet, Low level magnetic fields that can organize weakly ionized hydrogen, yes. Magnetic field needed to cause the acceleration of a star, not shown as of yet.

And yet more citations of the disproven CMB study.

Hmm, what happened to the high frequency prediction of Perrat's after COBE was launched. Did they find it?

I will say that Perrat certainly shows a restraint and careful phrasing that his alleged followers do not. He uses 'may', 'suggests' and other cautious terms that his followers ignore. Many malign his obvious intelligence when they misquote him and abuse his caution.
 
And the infamous galaxy rotation curves, his obtained by comparing the gravitational attraction and EM forces on electrons. gee are stars really just giant electrons? I think not. He also wimps out, he does not give a field strength to make his model work, he just suggests that it might. I think he too is afraid that the magnetic field that would have to exist has not been shown.

I read somewhere that the galactic magnetic field (micro-gauss) could account for, at max, 10% of the rotation discrepancy.
 
Peratt's Plasma Cosmology

It would have been nice to start the thread with a clear and concise description on what exactly Plasma Cosmology is from an expert, how it fits existing data and what falsifiable predictions it makes. However that does not seem likely to happen.

So lets start with Plasma Cosmology as researched by Anthony L. Perratt starting in about 1986.

Perratt observed that the universe is mostly plasma (99.999% of visible matter) and uses the existence of plasma filaments on various scales (laboratory to solar to possibly galactic) to postulate that there are cosmic plasma filaments. These filaments have Birkeland currents running through them. They are assumed to be close enough to interact but since the two closest interact most strongly he starts with a model with 2 adjacent current-conducting plasma filaments. Computer simulations of the model were then run to produce 2-D maps of the interacting filaments (i.e. a slice through them at some point).
The maps evolve from the 2 disks of the filaments to maps that look like double radio galaxies and then to more ordinary galaxies (elliptical, spiral and barred).



The predictions of the model are (based on the September 1989 article in Natural Science):
  1. There will be filaments of the order of a billion light years in the universe.
  2. There will be filamentary magnetized structures in our galaxy.
  3. Galaxies will contain highly ordered magnetic fields stretching for tens of thousands of light years.
  4. The Plasma Cosmology simulation model gives a background of microwaves with an energy density very nearly equal to that observed from the CMB. A further prediction is "that the cosmic microwave background from synchrotron sources will be found to have a distribution of radiation energy at higher frequencies that differs from the Big Bang model".
  5. The rotational velocities of galaxies can be explained by Plasma Cosmology without the need for dark matter.
The direct observation of dark matter falsifies the last prediction and thus the model.

The CMB fit was before the COBE and WMAP observations and so without the details that we have now. As Dancing David says it would be interesting to find out what the state if the model's prediction is now.
 
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Not until now, 35 years after the event, do I understand why I should have listened in physics instead of playing battleships with my mate. (who also failed)

Excellent link, RC.
 
Re a description, concise or otherwise, of 'plasma cosmology' (PC).

iantresman, who has posted in this section of this forum as recently as a month or two ago, is an open proponent of PC. He has said, many times, that the term is not at all precise, being used by different people (and sometimes the same people, at different times*) to cover a wide range of ideas, approaches, theories, etc.

I think it may be useful to distinguish two different levels on which proponents of PC operate:

1) specific, concrete models, theories, etc on the origin, evolution, composition, structure, and the main physical mechanisms (or processes) that give (and/or gave) rise to what we observe today.

2) the nature of scientific discovery, of legitimate methods and approaches; the characteristics of acceptable reasoning, logic, etc; the role of physics and astronomy in addressing questions about the nature of the observable universe.

Particularly confusing to an attempt to understand PC is the tendency of many proponents to be quite indiscriminate about what models etc to include (examining PC at level 1, above): you can easily find stuff straight from standard (space science) textbooks for example on the solar wind, on the Jovian magnetosphere, on jets; just as easily you can find stuff from the remotest regions of woo-land, for example on the Columbia Shuttle being downed by a mega-lightning bolt from space, on stone carvings being faithful representations of giant historical atmospheric plasma phenomena which, scaled up, were also responsible for the creation of Venus ('birthed' from Jupiter) - it's all 'plasma cosmology' to some proponents.

PC proponents (most of them anyway) don't seem to have a problem with the extraordinary internal inconsistencies that accepting (say) textbook models of the Io plasma torus as well as Peratt's model for galaxy rotation curves as well as lightning bolts being the cause of lunar craters as well as the Sun being powered by giant, galaxy-wide currents ... entail. Why? I think it's because most such proponent are also working within a framework that differs significantly from that of contemporary physics (and geology and astronomy and ...); level 2 in other words. Some consciously and explicitly acknowledge this; most vehemently deny it. I think the origins of this split with modern science can be traced to Alfvén's own work on cosmology, and this may be an interesting discussion to have. Of course, Alfvén was far too good a scientist to have ever presented much of the PC material that Zeuzzz (to take just one example) is perfectly happy to spam JREF forum threads with, and if we could transport a younger Alfvén through time to today and give him a week or so to read the last decade or two's landmark papers on cosmology, who knows how different his views would be?

Just two aspects of PC, at level 2:

- there's a strong tendency to employ the logic of false dichotomy: {this set of observations} can't be explained using ΛCDM models, THEREFORE plasma cosmology MUST be right!!!

- effects (mechanisms, processes) not yet demonstrated in labs here on Earth do not exist, so, for example, black holes and neutron stars cannot. That this approach is deployed in a highly selective way (for example, most PC proponents embrace Arp with open arms, despite the fact that no Arpian 'intrinsic redshift' has ever been demonstrated in a lab) is also a feature of the woo part of PC.

* and, in the case of Zeuzzz, per the record of his posts here, even at the same time! :eek:
 
Perrat's Endless Plasma Sea
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloads/EndlessPlasmaSea-Natur1990.pdf

Alas it appears to be in German or Dutch!

Now for Plasma Cosmology:
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloads/CosmologyPeratt.pdf

Reasonable radio survey of plasma filiament.
Claim that the Wolf effect could produce a lengthened redshift in QSOs.
Suggestion that filaments could make the CMB
Mention of Olber's paradox.
Some interesting pictures.

No real predictions, no real data, some supercomputing.
 
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Not with a Bang :
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloads/NotWithaBang.pdf

Blah, very poetic to start:

Discussion of Jupiter, Io and saturn, all accepted by the mainstream (as is the aurora)
Allsuon to synchroton radiation and filaments
The double lobed radio galaxy, yet again, and over and over. (Total ignoring of any of the orbital evidence for black holes.) But gosh while there may be jets there is this one experiment he did and the computer simulation. Bogus assertion about redshift.
Interesting discussion of galactic magnetic fields. Discussion of observed plasma tubes and filaments. (Not the imaginary stuff sime people blame on Perrat and Birkeland)
Kind of stretches that data to say there must be these huge unobserved currents and magnetic fields. More stretching of data about super clusters looking sort of like a filament.
Reasonable discussion of possible plasma effects in the early universe. Ooops, never eneding universe.
Very silly discussion of redshift.
Still talking about one bad data set on the CMB.
Claim made that the PU/PC says that there could be a uniform CMB. Since disproven?
Further unsupported assertion that his model provides for galaxy rotation curves, no discussion of events, scaling and observations. just assertion.
 
That is not evidence of Dark Matter. That is taking an observation and incorporating the idea of Dark Matter into the observation as an explaination.
Feel free to provide a counter hypothesis that also explains the observation.
 
Feel free to provide a counter hypothesis that also explains the observation.

You are still not understanding science. Not knowing the correct answer does not mean that the made-up gnome answer is correct. This is why BBT theology is not science. Science should be looking for explanations, not making up magical unmeasurable gnomes to support a faith.
 

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