Info about DNA recovery at WTC?

[Dave Rogers]

So my question is;

How did they make a positive match of the DNA found at the hotels and on the rental car wheels?

Surely there were plenty of individual's DNA found at a hotel and on a rental car wheel given their very nature.

How did the FBI know what specific hair or skin cell was that of the 10 hijackers? And, even if they only found 10 samples, how could they ever conclude they were the hijacker's DNA? Why not the maid (male)?

These are reasonable questions, and moderately interesting ones. One might speculate that if a person is known to have stayed in a specific hotel room and driven a specific car, and no other individuals have been identified as having done the same, then DNA samples found both at the hotel and in the car could reasonably be identified as coming from that individual. There may have been checks made against DNA samples from the hotel staff, who would have been available on account of not having been involved in the attacks. The same with previous users of the hire car. This is really rather easy to figure out.

You could try asking the FBI, although they might not want to divulge some things by the very nature of their job.

This is proof of a cover-up by FBI.

Excellent example of the argument from ignorance fallacy. You don't know how the DNA samples were identified and checked, therefore you claim that they weren't. Sorry, but your lack of knowledge is proof only of your lack of knowledge.

Dave

 

[aggle-rithm]

So I made the claim that the DNA evidence of hijackers at WTC is false.

It has been established that hijacker's DNA was identified at the Pentagon and Shanksville by process of elimination. Thus the FBI did not have hijacker DNA to compare crash samples to.

They did however have the DNA of the 10 hijackers at the WTC. They collected these samples from hotel room hair and rental car steering wheels.

This DNA was used to make positive matches to 3 DNA samples found in the WTC event. They positively matched the known hijacker samples.

So my question is;

How did they make a positive match of the DNA found at the hotels and on the rental car wheels?

Surely there were plenty of individual's DNA found at a hotel and on a rental car wheel given their very nature.

How did the FBI know what specific hair or skin cell was that of the 10 hijackers? And, even if they only found 10 samples, how could they ever conclude they were the hijacker's DNA? Why not anyone else that rented the room or car?

This is proof of a cover-up by FBI.

All they know is that the DNA found at places the hijackers were thought to have stayed were also found at the crash scene.

So, I suppose it's possible that the planes were hijacked by attendees of a Shriner's convention, or by newlyweds from Iowa who decided to commit murder/suicide on their honeymoon. Seems more likely it was the people with ties to Al Qaeda, though.

 

[The Big Dog]

"How did the FBI know what specific hair or skin cell was that of the 10 hijackers? And, even if they only found 10 samples, how could they ever conclude they were the hijacker's DNA? Why not anyone else that rented the room or car? Why not the maid (male)?

This is proof of a cover-up by FBI."

Holy Christ, what a spectacular leap in logic. Even for a Twoofer, that is freaking astonishing. God, it physically pains me to have to respond, but let me ask you: how you think they determined the hair did not come from a maid?

Sizzler, might it freaking occur to you that THEY COULD HAVE TESTED THE MAID? And other people who entered the room, rented/cleaned the cars?

Sizzler, please tell me that your knowledge of fundamental investigation techniques is not so warped by your Twooferism that now you are making **** up?

FSM, the Twoof movement gives me a headache.

 

[Sizzler]

How so? Do you have an FBI statement concerning the DNA evidence?

Well no I don't.

But lets use logic here for a second.

Lets consider this quote:

“Eventually (more than a year after the request) we received a one-page letter from the FBI containing ten coded STR profiles, presumably those of the terrorists. No names, just a K code, which is how the FBI designates “knowns,” or specimens it knows the origin of. These K’s had no names. We were certain these were the terrorists’ STR profiles, but there was nothing to identify them as such. Of course, we had no direct knowledge of how the FBI obtained the terrorists DNA.”
* Who They Were, Inside the World Trade Center DNA Story: The Unprecedented Effort To Identify The Missing – page 300

So the chief medical examiner was given 10 profiles with "K codes", K meaning "knowns".

It was assumed these were the terrorists DNA.

FBI claims to have found this DNA at hotel rooms and on rental cars. However without a comparison sample to make a positive identification, the very nature of a hotel room and rental car make any identification impossible.

Now unless they are rocking super duper DNA toowechnology, how did they positively identify the hotel room DNA and rental car DNA to that of the hijackers?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Incidentally, Sizzler, the edit doesn't help you. Previous users of the hire car wouldn't be too hard to find either.

Dave

 

[Sizzler]

Incidentally, Sizzler, the edit doesn't help you. Previous users of the hire car wouldn't be too hard to find either.

Dave

Positive identification cannot be made by way of process of elimination.

We learnt this lesson a few posts back.

But nice try.

 

[DGM]

Well no I don't.

But lets use logic here for a second.

Lets consider this quote:



So the chief medical examiner was given 10 profiles with "K codes", K meaning "knowns".

It was assumed these were the terrorists DNA.

FBI claims to have found this DNA at hotel rooms and on rental cars. However without a comparison sample to make a positive identification, the very nature of a hotel room and rental car make any identification impossible.

Now unless they are rocking super duper DNA toowechnology, how did they positively identify the hotel room DNA and rental car DNA to that of the hijackers?

It would need to be found in more than one place that could only be conected to the hijackers. Car AND Hotel maybe?

 

[The Big Dog]

FBI claims to have found this DNA at hotel rooms and on rental cars. However without a comparison sample to make a positive identification, the very nature of a hotel room and rental car make any identification impossible.

That is utterly false.

 

[Sizzler]

Let me reiterate:

“Eventually (more than a year after the request) we received a one-page letter from the FBI containing ten coded STR profiles, presumably those of the terrorists. No names, just a K code, which is how the FBI designates “knowns,” or specimens it knows the origin of. These K’s had no names. We were certain these were the terrorists’ STR profiles, but there was nothing to identify them as such. Of course, we had no direct knowledge of how the FBI obtained the terrorists DNA.”
* Who They Were, Inside the World Trade Center DNA Story: The Unprecedented Effort To Identify The Missing – page 300
So the chief medical examiner was given 10 profiles with "K codes", K meaning "knowns".

Positive identification cannot be made by way of elimination. Especially at a hotel room and on a car rental steering wheel. One can never know exactly who was in that room or used that car. Thus, there cannot be a process of elimination, never mind positive identification.

 

[A W Smith]

Well no I don't.

But lets use logic here for a second.

Lets consider this quote:



So the chief medical examiner was given 10 profiles with "K codes", K meaning "knowns".

It was assumed these were the terrorists DNA.

FBI claims to have found this DNA at hotel rooms and on rental cars. However without a comparison sample to make a positive identification, the very nature of a hotel room and rental car make any identification impossible.

Now unless they are rocking super duper DNA toowechnology, how did they positively identify the hotel room DNA and rental car DNA to that of the hijackers?

You are really not grasping this are you Sizz? It is really very simple. They know what hotel room they stayed at. they know what rental car they used. They take DNA from car and DNA from Room. if a match than. yes this is evidence that the DNA is that of the hijackers. They don't know which hijackers because they don't have a DNA from next of kin to match it to. But they do know that have a trail of DNA. The end or third stop of this DNA trail happens to be at the WTC site. QED or quod erat demonstrandum, that is the DNA of the hijackers. If you cannot grasp this than it is proof that you are ineducable.

 

[tsig]

Well no I don't.

But lets use logic here for a second.

Lets consider this quote:



So the chief medical examiner was given 10 profiles with "K codes", K meaning "knowns".

It was assumed these were the terrorists DNA.

FBI claims to have found this DNA at hotel rooms and on rental cars. However without a comparison sample to make a positive identification, the very nature of a hotel room and rental car make any identification impossible.

Now unless they are rocking super duper DNA toowechnology, how did they positively identify the hotel room DNA and rental car DNA to that of the hijackers?

Because they are rocking super duper DNA toowechnology.

Guess you never heard of secret black-ops research that would make your hair stand on end. Don't ask, mere knowledge that there is a question has proved fatal to many. Galileo, DaVinci, Einstein and Lennon all knew and look where they are.

 

[Sizzler]

The DNA was already identified as "knowns" before comparison at WTC site.

Plus, they were given exactly 10 samples all identified at "knowns".

They could not have positively identified the DNA at the hotel or car rental wheel.

 

[Dave Rogers]

FBI claims to have found this DNA at hotel rooms and on rental cars. However without a comparison sample to make a positive identification, the very nature of a hotel room and rental car make any identification impossible.

Now unless they are rocking super duper DNA toowechnology, how did they positively identify the hotel room DNA and rental car DNA to that of the hijackers?

This is a classic example of demanding an unreasonable burden of proof. What you are asking is that the DNA evidence alone, unsupported by any testimony, documentary evidence or other physical evidence, should be unequivocal proof that the hijackers were present on the planes. That's not necessary. Let's look at what we do know:

Certain individuals stayed in certain hotel rooms and hired certain cars; this is known from the documentation involved. DNA samples were taken from those hotel rooms and cars, and matched by the FBI to those individuals. This could have been done by a simple process of elimination; we know it took over a year, so a considerable amount of work could have been done. Samples of DNA matching two or three (accounts seem to differ) of those individuals were found in the debris at the WTC towers. We therefore know for certain that those two or three individuals stayed in those rooms and drove those cars, and if the elimination process has been carried out thoroughly enough we know beyond reasonable doubt that those individuals were the identified hijackers.

That, on its own, is proof (provided the FBI establishes the chain of custody of the samples and their identification, which it would have to do in court in any criminal proceedings) that at least two of the individuals identified as hijackers were on the planes. That, on its own, doesn't prove that they were the hijackers, but there's a mountain of other evidence, from the martyrdom videos to the radio messages and the known ties to al-Qaeda and the freely given confession of KSM in a TV interview, and so on ad nauseam, that there is simply no room left for doubt.

So, as I said before, the fact that you don't know something is proof of absolutely nothing relevant.

Dave

 

[DGM]

Let me reiterate:


Positive identification cannot be made by way of elimination. Especially at a hotel room and on a car rental steering wheel. One can never know exactly who was in that room or used that car. Thus, there cannot be a process of elimination, never mind positive identification.

or specimens it knows the origin of

They can trace it back to the place. The identity of the person really doesn't matter in that case. They're putting together a path for a "known" person (sample).

Did the FBI ever say the positively identified the hijackers DNA?

 

[Sizzler]

You are really not grasping this are you Sizz? It is really very simple. They know what hotel room they stayed at. they know what rental car they used. They take DNA from car and DNA from Room. if a match than. yes this is evidence that the DNA is that of the hijackers. They don't know which hijackers because they don't have a DNA from next of kin to match it to. But they do know that have a trail of DNA. The end or third stop of this DNA trail happens to be at the WTC site. QED or quod erat demonstrandum, that is the DNA of the hijackers. If you cannot grasp this than it is proof that you are ineducable.

That isn't positive identification though. That is evidence that the same person used the car and the hotel room, not that that person was the hijacker.

There are procedures for these things.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Positive identification cannot be made by way of process of elimination.

Rubbish. Positive identification beyond a resonable confidence level can be made from a combination of correlation and elimination. The standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt by a biased observer who is not prepared to consider the possibility of the identification to be proven.

We learnt this lesson a few posts back.

I've yet to see you learn any lesson.

Dave

 

[Sizzler]

They can trace it back to the place. The identity of the person really doesn't matter in that case. They're putting together a path for a "known" person.

Did the FBI ever say the positively identified the hijackers DNA?

According to one source, exactly 10 DNA samples were given, with K codes, meaning "known" identities, but without actual names.

It was assumed these were the terrorists.

Nonetheless, the DNA evidence, anyway one looks at it, is NOT positive identification. Do you think they are John Does on their death certificates too?

 

[A W Smith]

The DNA was already identified as "knowns" before comparison at WTC site.

Plus, they were given exactly 10 samples all identified at "knowns".

They could not have positively identified the DNA at the hotel or car rental wheel.

Known vehicle------------Known stop or site---------= trail of DNA
-rental--Car------------------>Hotel room---------- = trail pf DNA

 

[Dave Rogers]

That isn't positive identification though. That is evidence that the same person used the car and the hotel room, not that that person was the hijacker.

It's evidence that the same person used the car, was in the hotel room, and was on the plane. That's all that the DNA evidence is establishing. If you're trying to argue that the people identified as the hijackers were not actually hijackers but were just on the plane, then the DNA evidence is irrelevant. If you're arguing that the persons identified by the DNA evidence weren't on the plane, then you have to explain how their DNA was found in the rubble pile. Either way, you haven't presented the slightest shred of evidence that the FBI has erred in any way whatsoever.

There are procedures for these things.

And you've already made it quite clear that you have no interest in finding out what those procedures are.

Dave

 

[Sizzler]

Rubbish. Positive identification beyond a resonable confidence level can be made from a combination of correlation and elimination. The standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt by a biased observer who is not prepared to consider the possibility of the identification to be proven.



I've yet to see you learn any lesson.

Dave

John Doe's were used as the names for the terrorists on their death certificates. Pentagon, Shanksville

Their DNA was identified by a process of elimination, yet, their true identity was not know enough to be identified.

Thus, process of elimination is not positive identification. The DNA, no matter how you look at it, is not from a known source.