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Suzanne Hadwin - Council ghostbuster

Erhard Schmits said:
I don't know if you ever experimented with a wijaboard. This is the easiest way to contact spirits but I do strongly advise against it as it opens the door to the most primitive or lowest kinds of spirits. A lot of damage ha been done because of it. I myself know of a case.

Erhard
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Do tell.
 
Erhard Schmits said:
-snip- I cannot post any links but just goole "Warren Smith medium" and get some info on him.
Erhard
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OK lets do that... well let's Google him instead....

http://www.google.com/search?q=Warren+Smith+medium&hl=en&rlz=1B2DVFA_enGB229GB229&start=0&sa=N

So is he Warren Smith the ski instructor Medium? Mathematician Medium? The dead singer Medium? The jazz musician Medium? The Auzzy automotive retailer Medium? The Auzzy consulting engineer Medium? :rolleyes:

1 page down 100,000 to go...
 
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hi

It shouldn't (assuming for one moment it exists) - the psychics should. They are making claims for which people are paying money. They have to be able to show that they can do what they say. You try applying your logic in hiring a builder and let me know how it goes.

It is upto people who part with their money to decide who they give it to. People will always make claims. Whether fact or fantasy people love anything thats seems interesting and indeed make money from it.
I have no need to hire a builder lol and my logic would be based on several differnt things. Hiring a builder is very different than this controversial subject? Very different i think. Lots of differnt factors here i.e. building job could cost lots more i would need to see proof of references of his work etc very different to that of a clairvoyant medium etc.. That is my logic. Again i would use a medium and indeed have done whether or not they were true and i stress that they were based on word of mouth recommendations from those i trust.


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We can see the affects of the wind yet we can never take a picture of the wind, yet we know it exists and theories as to why it happens?
Yes, via simple, repeatable observations for which there are proven theories. Nothing like this exists for psychic claims.

Again i think that this is based on beleifs again isnt it? Every person who carries out experiments or has theories may feel need to have their theory proven right? Doesnt always necessarily mean it is right or correct i dont think? Perhaps there are always flaws in experiments that s why i call them theories not that i know any different again its what i think. We are only presented with certain data perhaps when there could be other factors not yet discovered or measured?


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If there was totally no such thing as ghosts then there's gotta be an awful lot of 'nutty' people out there myself inlcuded hee hee and i know im not totally nuts yet?!

(ps the term 'nutty' is not intended to be derogatory to people with mental health in anyway apologies if offence caused).
That's what's known as an argument from popularity, and it means nothing without substantiating evidence. Just because a lot of people believe in something, doesn't make it true.

I agree, here but its also based on lots of other things perhaps based on information , how people filter that information and tied in with their own logic and beleifs. Ive watched many paranormal programmes where there is debate between what is possible natural occurences for paranormal and what could be paranormal unexplained occurences and again it does depend on peoples mind set among other things. Humans wil always enjoy things that are different from the norm, fantasy etc and it always bases good discussions for as long as i can remember. So whether true or false i wil always love the debates wherever they are lol.
 
bubblygirl said:
It is upto people who part with their money to decide who they give it to. People will always make claims. Whether fact or fantasy people love anything thats seems interesting and indeed make money from it.
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This doesn't justify it morally or legally. By this logic fraud is acceptable on a "buyer beware" basis. Most people in society agree that people, especially the vulnerable, should have some form of protection against being scammed.

I have no need to hire a builder lol and my logic would be based on several differnt things. Hiring a builder is very different than this controversial subject? Very different i think. Lots of differnt factors here i.e. building job could cost lots more i would need to see proof of references of his work etc very different to that of a clairvoyant medium etc.. That is my logic.
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Different, and yet not so terribly different as you seem to think. The builder is providing a service, yes? A service to a certain objective standard - that he completes the work agreed. The same standard for the psychic would be that they are able to contact the dead.

How do you know that they do this? That it's not cold and/or hot reading? Doesn't it trouble you that no scientific test has ever shown a psychic to do better than chance in a repeatable way?

Again i would use a medium and indeed have done whether or not they were true and i stress that they were based on word of mouth recommendations from those i trust.
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OK. So you don't actually care whether or not they can do what they say? Even though this can be (and has been) tested? Wouldn't you rather remove the element of doubt? I realise it's less money than a builder would charge, but then how many times in your life will you consult a psychic? Rather more than you will employ a builder I would say.

Again i think that this is based on beleifs again isnt it?
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Quite the opposite. That's the point of science - to eliminate speculation and belief from the equation so we can get close to seeing what's actually the case without such bias and error.

Every person who carries out experiments or has theories may feel need to have their theory proven right? Doesnt always necessarily mean it is right or correct i dont think?
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Absolutely! This is why experiments and studies are peer-reviewed. Their colleagues and rivals all pick holes in the hypothesis, and if it doesn't stand up, it's rejected. This is what happened with ESP, clairvoyance, and so on. If some more evidence comes to light, science will embrace it - even if some cynically rejected it, the evidence (results greater than chance) would demand that others carried out more work and worked toward proving the existence of psychic ability. Science is an ever-building body of knowledge that adapts over time to incorporate new ideas. There's been so little from the fields of the paranormal, and so many ways to reproduce the effects (cold reading etc again) that it's safe to assume (for now) that they don't exist. If you choose to accept this huge risk that psychics might actually be lying or deluded, that's OK. But many who use them either don't realise or understand that what they offer has never had evidence to support it.

Perhaps there are always flaws in experiments that s why i call them theories not that i know any different again its what i think.
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There have been lots of experiments, and no real positive results. You can't say this of anything accepted by science. That's...erm..why it's accepted. It even works for things we don't fully understand (e.g. gravity). We can show a phenomenon exists without fully understanding it. At that point we can investigate and hey, maybe even pay people to show it to us.

We are only presented with certain data perhaps when there could be other factors not yet discovered or measured?
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There could be. There could also be an orc living in my attic that vanishes when I go up there. Should I pay money to someone who says they can talk to him?

I agree, here but its also based on lots of other things perhaps based on information , how people filter that information and tied in with their own logic and beleifs.
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You've actually hit on the main reason why people believe psychics are real and accurate - their personal filter, beliefs, and the information they get all feed into to their idea of what's plausible and desirable. The key is to recognise that we as human beings are fallible and easily duped. ALL of us, that is, not just psychic believers. Scepticism is about saying "woah, hang on there a sec - this feels legit, and I really want to believe it, but can I look at it objectively to make sure I'm getting the right impression?".

Ive watched many paranormal programmes where there is debate between what is possible natural occurences for paranormal and what could be paranormal unexplained occurences and again it does depend on peoples mind set among other things.
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The perception changes, yes, but the reality remains the same whether you believe in it or not. With psychic powers, it's really possible to test them. If they don't stack up, then sure, it's still just possible that somehow they're still real. But it's far, far more likely that something mundane has occurred that seems amazing on the surface thanks to the way our brains recognise patterns and wish for certain outcomes.

Humans wil always enjoy things that are different from the norm, fantasy etc and it always bases good discussions for as long as i can remember. So whether true or false i wil always love the debates wherever they are lol.
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You and me both! We do agree on this - to me it's a reason to take a step back and think carefully about believing in it. To you it's a cause for enthusiasm. Both of us enjoy reading and learning about the subject, for different reasons.

If you like, do some googling around "cold reading". This is a great place to start. See if you think your next reading (or the next TV scene you watch) could have been done in a similar way. If you think it could, ask yourself why you choose to believe that it's been done by psychic means.

Finally, assuming you remain a staunch believer in the idea that psychics exist, ask yourself this question;

How can you tell which psychics are real, and which are getting the information via trickery? Wouldn't you like to know, beyond what just feels the most accurate?
 
bubblygirl said:
It is upto people who part with their money to decide who they give it to.
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If it is their own money, then (apart from the protection point that Les refers to) this is just about acceptable.

When they are spending public money, they have a duty to ensure the money is spent wisely. That means NOT giving it to fraudsters who can't prove they can provide the service they claim to supply just as much as it applies to not giving a building contract to your brothers firm even though their price is more expensive than the alternative. This is equivalent to a public servant employing a non-existent builder and should be dealt with in exactly the same way.
 
Would it have been ok for the council to have given the money to a middle-aged bloke from a council estate who dressed up as an American Indian and did a dance in front of the 'haunted house'?
 
We can see the affects of the wind yet we can never take a picture of the wind, yet we know it exists and theories as to why it happens?

Yes, via simple, repeatable observations for which there are proven theories. Nothing like this exists for psychic claims

how do we know if anything really is 'proven' for and how can some people ever understand how 'repeatable observations' are tested etc. It mainly is taking someone's word for it . For example professionals profess to being professionals in their own domain, the 'normal' every day run of the mill layman may not know of these tests so we beleive what we think the professionals are saying without possibly ever knowing or understanding how 'tests' are carried out ? A lot of things in life i think, are about taking someone's word for it especially in cases where we dont know for sure, confusion or the status of the people saying that things are 'proven'?

Look at banks, we save our money, have our salaries paid into them, but many many years ago people may not have dreamt of ever giving their money to someone else to look after!! Somewhere along the line someone took their word for it and banks are booming ever since, until someone else said hang on here we are paying too much in bank charges and then everyone took that persons word for it when really no one may know what is a reasonable charge or not?? It's all about taking someones word for it , without ever really knowing or finding out the real truth perhaps dont you think???
 
Big Les said:
This doesn't justify it morally or legally. By this logic fraud is acceptable on a "buyer beware" basis. Most people in society agree that people, especially the vulnerable, should have some form of protection against being scammed.


Who ever says this doesnt justify it morally or legally is merely based on the person making the quotes own view point. How can we say it doesnt justify, morally or legally we are not the family wanting the help from the clairvoyant or council . As for morally thats quite a deep subject to me based on my own view point, also legally if it were not legal then why did a big organisation offer to pay half the costs, and why didnt police come and arrest suzanne hadwin?? Does that make the council and the family acessory to aiding and abetting? Because someone cannot be arrested for their own beleifs.

I have read recently that clairvoyants and the like are to have to have some kind of warning in their advertisments or something so the public are aware.
Isn't everything on a 'buyer beware' basis??



Different, and yet not so terribly different as you seem to think. The builder is providing a service, yes? A service to a certain objective standard - that he completes the work agreed. The same standard for the psychic would be that they are able to contact the dead.

How do you know that they do this? That it's not cold and/or hot reading? Doesn't it trouble you that no scientific test has ever shown a psychic to do better than chance in a repeatable way?

If thats the case why do thousands of millions of people worship something they cannot see?? Where's proof of that , why do they do it?

I have never personally gone to see a clairvoyant etc. to contact the dead im more into tarot etc. and have gone at times when i felt i needed comfort i can honestly say i have enjoyed every reading immensley and several several times my readings have happened as foretold by the tarot reader. I have also read tarot and both readings happened as i foretold them via the cards in front of me. No i didnt charge by the way !! And i wouldnt and dont need to!

I had an experience with a clairvoyant once, by chance and that was only because my mate wanted to go into the spiritulist church and i wanted to go int he pub just further along from it!!! After much debate we entered the s. church and by chance an old friend came through who i knew had died many years before . It was a breif message to pass on to her mum h ow happy she was and about i would know her mother from the watch she wears that was originally given to her for her bd just before she passed away. Now i didnt know who her mother was or where she lived (we are talking when i was 8 years old when i knew the friend that had passed) But i did eventually find her mother by chance and her mother showed me the watch with the engraving on the back as the clairvoyant had stated. Her mother was very pleased but i couldnt understand that her mum had been going to s. church for years with no message from her daughter yet here was i not even wanting to go into the boring (yes i find them boring) s. church in the first place, and i got a msg from her daughter!!?? Who i hadnt seen since age 8!?


OK. So you don't actually care whether or not they can do what they say? Even though this can be (and has been) tested? Wouldn't you rather remove the element of doubt? I realise it's less money than a builder would charge, but then how many times in your life will you consult a psychic? Rather more than you will employ a builder I would say.

Truth is i dont need to employ a builder or ever will!!? Of course i care whether they can do what they say but thats a question of my own beleifs. I have been going back for tarot readings year after year an d even have my own pack. I will always be interested in psychics for as long as i can, and my nan was extremely psychic and why would she have lied to me??



Quite the opposite. That's the point of science - to eliminate speculation and belief from the equation so we can get close to seeing what's actually the case without such bias and error.

Now thats objective! lol



Absolutely! This is why experiments and studies are peer-reviewed. Their colleagues and rivals all pick holes in the hypothesis, and if it doesn't stand up, it's rejected. This is what happened with ESP, clairvoyance, and so on. If some more evidence comes to light, science will embrace it - even if some cynically rejected it, the evidence (results greater than chance) would demand that others carried out more work and worked toward proving the existence of psychic ability. Science is an ever-building body of knowledge that adapts over time to incorporate new ideas. There's been so little from the fields of the paranormal, and so many ways to reproduce the effects (cold reading etc again) that it's safe to assume (for now) that they don't exist. If you choose to accept this huge risk that psychics might actually be lying or deluded, that's OK. But many who use them either don't realise or understand that what they offer has never had evidence to support it.

Wouldnt life be dull and boring if we knew and accepted that everything exists with logical explanation and proof of everything??



There have been lots of experiments, and no real positive results. You can't say this of anything accepted by science. That's...erm..why it's accepted. It even works for things we don't fully understand (e.g. gravity). We can show a phenomenon exists without fully understanding it. At that point we can investigate and hey, maybe even pay people to show it to us.

If those that beleieved in it, enough to pay for it then why not??
If you think of writing a dissertation (dont know if u have?) the marking of it is only based on what the tutor /examiner thinks it right or correct according to their beleifsand others standards on the subject. Im a beleiver in writing how i feel based on my experiences and my own theories but yet i may get down graded due to not writing to how the examiner wants me to write to his or her standards? So do i write to be original and true to my own theories and beleifs based on experience or do i cut that bit out and write to how the examiner wants me to write because i get a 'prize' if i write to how they want but i dont get anything if i write to how i want to write? Only self satisfaction perhaps?



There could be. There could also be an orc living in my attic that vanishes when I go up there. Should I pay money to someone who says they can talk to him?

Whats an orc, and if u believed it was living there in the first place thats your beleif?? The only reward for making it public would be attention but ridicule i would imagine.

If orcs exist lol how comes its been given a name hee hee?? Anyone tel me where i can find a pic of an orc id be interested???



You've actually hit on the main reason why people believe psychics are real and accurate - their personal filter, beliefs, and the information they get all feed into to their idea of what's plausible and desirable. The key is to recognise that we as human beings are fallible and easily duped. ALL of us, that is, not just psychic believers. Scepticism is about saying "woah, hang on there a sec - this feels legit, and I really want to believe it, but can I look at it objectively to make sure I'm getting the right impression?".

Sometimes right or wrong impression may not come into it , but the bigger reward could be the feeling of comfort it brings to some perhaps?



The perception changes, yes, but the reality remains the same whether you believe in it or not. With psychic powers, it's really possible to test them. If they don't stack up, then sure, it's still just possible that somehow they're still real. But it's far, far more likely that something mundane has occurred that seems amazing on the surface thanks to the way our brains recognise patterns and wish for certain outcomes.



You and me both! We do agree on this - to me it's a reason to take a step back and think carefully about believing in it. To you it's a cause for enthusiasm. Both of us enjoy reading and learning about the subject, for different reasons.

Then why dont religious people take a step back??

If you like, do some googling around "cold reading". This is a great place to start. See if you think your next reading (or the next TV scene you watch) could have been done in a similar way. If you think it could, ask yourself why you choose to believe that it's been done by psychic means.

Finally, assuming you remain a staunch believer in the idea that psychics exist, ask yourself this question;

How can you tell which psychics are real, and which are getting the information via trickery? Wouldn't you like to know, beyond what just feels the most accurate?
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I personally cant tell if any are real or unreal, that doesnt make me stupid, but one thing i know for sure is i know whats real to me based on my beleifs and experience, its such a personal thing . I get great comfort from having tarot readings as i personally beleive in the cards. I stopped giving readings because i became afraid at the accuracy after being initally mocked.
 
Reno said:
Would it have been ok for the council to have given the money to a middle-aged bloke from a council estate who dressed up as an American Indian and did a dance in front of the 'haunted house'?
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Hey people pay some to dress up as whatever and do whatever lol??? Again upto what people want isnt it , would it have made any difference if suzanne hadwin dressed up as an american indian whats the significance of what people can do based on their dress anyway??

As for a dance lol, would av been a bit crazy as u dont see many dancing in the street ( i know a song about that lol) nowadays?

Mind you ask me if id pay to see a rather attractive well toned and tanned young man dance infront of a haunted house dressed up in an american indian suit id probably would!?! It would be great entertainment for me and the girls hee hee?? Based on my beleif that he was very attractive of course lol
 
bubblygirl said:
Hey people pay some to dress up as whatever and do whatever lol??? Again upto what people want isnt it , would it have made any difference if suzanne hadwin dressed up as an american indian whats the significance of what people can do based on their dress anyway??

As for a dance lol, would av been a bit crazy as u dont see many dancing in the street ( i know a song about that lol) nowadays?

Mind you ask me if id pay to see a rather attractive well toned and tanned young man dance infront of a haunted house dressed up in an american indian suit id probably would!?! It would be great entertainment for me and the girls hee hee?? Based on my beleif that he was very attractive of course lol
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OK Bubblygirl, you've just proved you're a troll. Come back with some serious arguments (some good spelling and grammar would be a bonus) and we'll debate. Otherwise, go forth and multiply.
 
well its not written in stone to spell correctly on here and i dont have to use correct grammar its not a spelling or grammar test!! lol You would have to argue with a lot of people as i'm not the only one !!!??
I think you have possibly run out of answers so have admitted defeat hee hee.
By the way i'm not a troll, im just better at debate than you are!!! As for multiplying already done that!!
Why should i have to have serious arguments with you thought we already have been doing that???
Think you just need to accept that we dont all think like you do dear :)
 
Someone please please please change the subject now :( getting a bit boring and now im getting called a troll ???
 
Hi, I am new to this forum and this is my first post after my intro in the newbie thread. Sorry to start off on a negative note Bubblygirl but I am afraid I am not convinced by any of your arguments or "evidence".
I find many of your analogies very strange. Particularly comparing the existence of wind to paranormal activity, and the services of builders to the services of physics/mediums.

As previous posters have pointed out, the actions and consequences of wind can be measured by many different methods, i.e., from your basic weather vanes to Anemometers. All the results are observable and repeatable, therefore the EXISTANCE of wind is not in doubt. If I were to employ a builder, the evidence of the work he/she carried out would be plain, i.e., I would have a new house, garage, wall, etc. In contrast, there has never been the slightest scrap of basic and unshakeable evidence like this provided by the paranormal community to back up their various claims.

I apologise if anyone thinks my comparisons are a bit infantile and very "stating the obvious" but I am bewildered that bubblygirl can use such arguments and expect them to be taken seriously.

By the by, what is a troll?
 
Big Les said:
It shouldn't (assuming for one moment it exists) - the psychics should. They are making claims for which people are paying money. They have to be able to show that they can do what they say. You try applying your logic in hiring a builder and let me know how it goes.



Yes, via simple, repeatable observations for which there are proven theories. Nothing like this exists for psychic claims.



That's what's known as an argument from popularity, and it means nothing without substantiating evidence. Just because a lot of people believe in something, doesn't make it true.
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it makes it true to those who beleive
 
welcome to the forum chineapple chunks :) we are all entitled to an opinion and beleif i have as much right to put up an opinion as others but it saddens me that im getting 'gunned' down by the sceptics for my beleifs and opinions. It seems that only select 'in crowd' few in here do not seem to get slated or their views. To be quite frank about it im seriously getting bored with it now.
 
bubblygirl said:
says he who owns the forum???
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maybe people get bored because some people just keep going over the same stuff over and over again yes it gets very boring and is boring. People should expect to put up their opinion without receiving malice or derogatory comments just because it may not totally comply with the view point of the 'selective' few on here.
I will stand by my beleifs and will not be afraid to put my opinion up despite getting offended by those few who seem to wish to ruin it for others.
I view this forum as a bit of light hearted fun really and its such a shame that some others dont see it that way?
I am very bored with this thread now and think that its going off on a bit of a tangent so will not be interested in responding. Remember that not everyone thinks the same or necesarrily explains things in a way that everyone understands it doesnt make their argument less relevent , in fact, it may not be an arguement at all just someones opinion!?
 
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