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A flaw with the belief in reincarnation?

Batman Jr. said:
You've hit the nail on the head. If you read my posts above, I do mention that I use solipsism in coming to my conclusions.
Thank you for clearing this up. Unfortunately, if you are a solipsist, we have little further to discuss. The solipsist point of view is afterall coherent. I can't argue against its logic. All I can say is that it is a useless point of view which provides no basis for advancement of knowledge.

Sorry to be so abrupt.
 
Re-in-bicycle-nation is the latest cyclically non-gas-guzzling fashion statement. It's good for your health, provided that a bigger vehicle doesn't collide with you and your bike.
 
Egocentric Universe...a terrifying model

There are a number of models for reincarnation. I certainly find the Shirley Maclaine model of belief in past life memories to be highly implausible to say the least.
The monumental problem there is just how can a zygote acquire the memory of Cleopatra as some of its proponents claim? That is a flaw in that model to the first degree.

The model I find more plausible may scarcely be reincarnation at all. It is an universe with egocentric properties and only one soul. This universe orientates itself around an observer. It fully embraces the concept of Occam's Razor as manifold souls are just a superfluous and unnecessary complication. Only one soul is all that is required for a universe to observe itself. This soul is not an omnipotent God or Gods by any means as it is no more than a passive observer and not an active creator.

At the moment you feel you are in the center of your own egocentric universe. If you sit in an observatory you observe distant galaxies from that egocentric vantage. Only a universe that attains carbon based life forms can attains the property of egocentricity. But IMO there are other far simpler universes which will never attain this and as such no observer to observe it. Another term for this is the Weak Anthropic Principle

I am more of the view that when you die in this egocentric universe you will just become apparent that with all memories of this life totally erased that the state of being dead will be subjectively indistinguishable from the state of not been conceived. If you are reborn again it is by virtue of the fact that there is no mechanism to remind you that you have already spent your one life. So each life is just akin to a first life experience. That is why I said it is scarcely reincarnation at all. To attain some sense of the passage of time, this Universe will randomly reorientate you to another observer until you ultimately personally experience the life of everyone that has ever lived and ever will live. All with just one soul.

I find this model to be not only plausible but also extremely terrifying, because can you imagine having to personally expierence the life of all of Saddam Husseins and Adolph Hitler's torture victims. Not to mention victims of the Inquisitions and all the famine victims in the third world. Just do the math and you find you are far more like to emerge as one of them than experience the life of Donald Trump, Bill gates or a Beverly Hills celebrity. This IMO is far more terrifying than I ever dreamt hell to be. So I just like to hang on to this life as long as I can.

CDR
 
Croc:

I like your hypothesis very much, but a universe in which that is true is indistinguishable from a universe in which it is not.

But, it's a good model. There was some writer--Buber, maybe?--who wrote a great deal from that perspective, and its implications are heartwarming. It encourages empathy and compassion and cannot, under any circumstances, be used for evil. Nice way to look at things.

Peace,
- B
 
Eos of the Eons said:


You'll need to come up with a good argument why it wouldn't warrant the absence of consciousness. Our brains are what make us conscious. When we are dead, our brain is dead...blah blah my usual arguments.

Read my "Are we Machines"?
 
Abdul Alhazred said:
... "Will your memory survive?" "No". "Will your perceptions survive?" "No." ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Then in no meaningful sense is there life after death. What survives that is me?

Memories are not accessible due to the configuration of the brain. Memories I suspect will return during inter-life periods when the self isn't operating through the brain.

What survives is the self.
 
Eos of the Eons said:
You cannot deny that a person without a brain is not conscious. It's a fact. No brain, no consciousness.

[/B]

I certainly can. I say prove it. Indeed show that it's intelligible to suppose consciousness has its source in the brain. But read my article first because I do not like typing the same thing over and over again.
 
Eos of the Eons said:


Our brains are what make us conscious because you are no longer conscious without it. I would say you and all the others who believe in the more paranormal stuff will have to prove otherwise (and win a million bucks). Science has already shown that when we die there is no proof that any consciousness remains.

I don't know what you mean by "These phenomena are subsumed into the aforementioned group of behaviors."

EEG and such are not phenomena, and brain activity is not behavior.

Eos you really are seriously clueless.
 
From what I understand of Shinto—a variant of Buddhism practiced most prominently in Japan—its disciples believe in even inanimate objects having souls (i.e. rocks). If this were the mindset with which you approached the idea of reincarnation, it could be perceived that life has always existed, just not in forms we're familiar with.

This isn't correct. Shinto was the native religion of the Japanese before they were ever introduced to Buddhism. I think it's more similar to ancient Greek and Roman theology with multiple gods many of whom are personifications of natural objects such as mountains or rivers.

It became intertwined with Buddhism to an extent after Buddhism was introduced. The "gods" of Shinto were just reinterpreted as being Boddhisatvas (sp?) I believe in order to make it fit into Buddhism. Buddhism seems more adaptive than Christianity in this way but even in Christianity old pagan holidays were just reinterpreted as Christian holidays for example. It makes it easier to accept the new religion if you don't have to give up ALL of your old practices and beliefs.
 
Iamme said:
To be reincarnated means that you would have had to come form some past life. Were you also reincarnated in that past life? And so on and so on?

There comes a point where somewheres down the road, there had to have been original life.


Argument by gratuitous assertion, and by the rules of rhetoric, just as gratuitously denied. DENIED!!!

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you haven't made your case.
 
CFLarsen said:
Try to compute how many souls are needed up until now.

Then try to look at the population growth for the next 40-50 years.

If you believe in reincarnation, you got a big problem.

You're familiar with insects and stuff, right?
 
Your all wrong sez me, a body doesn't always have a soul, the spirit carries memory from life to life, some remember past lives. Your memory is not carried in that squishy mess called brain. Passed over kin can create a soul for new babies we term "newbees" One of our grandchildren has a newbee. Usually souls are infused before birth or up to 7 years of age sometimes. The mother side seems to get preference if she has a soul. The churches have confused the whole thing to gain power and control. Some are capable of talking with passed over kin, don't laugh at what you don't understand I learnt that a while back. Also souls can be destroyed and are at times( as above as below). Somebody on this thread must know that this is as true, back me up please before I get howled down.
 
To be reincarnated means that you would have had to come form some past life. Were you also reincarnated in that past life? And so on and so on?

There comes a point where somewheres down the road, there had to have been original life. And out of that original life came reincarnated life (if you so believe this)

That being said; if life comes into existance somehow, originally, in it's pure nonreincarnated state...then why believe that future life becomes recycled (reincarnated)? Why not JUST believe in all life as being original? Why believe that there is both?

I've not read anyone elses replies but in response to this. Why can't 'souls' be new when a child is born or reincarnated? Both could be happening at the same time. Why not believe that there is both?
 
Your all wrong sez me, a body doesn't always have a soul, the spirit carries memory from life to life, some remember past lives. Your memory is not carried in that squishy mess called brain. Passed over kin can create a soul for new babies we term "newbees" One of our grandchildren has a newbee. Usually souls are infused before birth or up to 7 years of age sometimes. The mother side seems to get preference if she has a soul. The churches have confused the whole thing to gain power and control. Some are capable of talking with passed over kin, don't laugh at what you don't understand I learnt that a while back. Also souls can be destroyed and are at times( as above as below). Somebody on this thread must know that this is as true, back me up please before I get howled down.


How can you believe in a soul after that staggering bit of necromancy you just pulled? :D
 
Some Tibetan Buddhists get around the problem by saying that, well, OBVIOUSLY, DUMMY! souls split and the pieces can be reincarnated in more than one person. I mean jeeze, can't you see what's right in front of your nose?

Hmmm .... Two points here.

1. No Buddhists, Tibetan or otherwise, believe in souls. Such things contradict the central Buddhist doctrine of anatta (Pali), or anatman (Sanskrit). Strictly speaking, Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation, because there's nothing to incarnate. Instead, they believe in "rebirth," the idea being that the last "thought moment" in one life conditions the first "thought moment" in the next, without anything substantial being, as it were, transferred from one to the next.

2. As traditionally conceived, the soul is held to be simple. Something simple could not "split".
 
Crikey, I've only now realised how old the post to which I've just replied is! My suspicions were alerted by noticing contributions from Interesting Ian. He was such a polite young man, wasn't he?
 
So if you're a vampire, that means the soul from your old body can be reincarnated as someone else while you're still walking around, right?
 
Personally, I don't see proving reincarnation, nor finding flaws as needing philosophical discussion.

Reincarnation, as a historical belief, I see as no different than believing in resurrection or an eternity spent in the Kingdom of Hades. The only difference is that people are not, to my knowledge, claiming to have been resurrected on a regular basis nor coming back from the brink of death with accounts of personal encounters with Hades. By taking a simple glance at the current cultural belief I can see it as nothing more than a modern trend.

I have personally gone from being a full believer in reincarnation to a doubting Thomas to quite shaky. (I'm probably repeating myself from some earlier post I can't remember right off the bat.) In all my experience I have not encountered a single, testable definition of the soul, let alone reincarnation. Nobody seems to agree what it is, unless they are a part of organized religion. Then the soul has an agreed upon form. But that's not science. That ends that. No testable hypothesis, no science. Yet, even without a clear definition of the soul people still try to gather evidence.

Proving reincarnation, in our culture, has tended to revolve foremost around providing memories. The trouble with claiming memories is that one needs to find verification that such memories actually took place. The most obvious conclusion that I've encountered in believing circles has been to read a biography or other historical resource. But the confabulation of memory and cryptoamnesia are two verifiable phenomena that have not, to my knowledge, been satisfactorily dealt with in proving that claimed and verified memories are indeed evidences of reincarnation. From the start we have no idea the process that someone came to believe their claim. The only controlled, even semi-controlled, setting that I know of in attempting to provide evidence of reincarnation has been hypnosis. I don't know hypnosis to be a reliable source for good scientific experimentation.

"At this point it is impossible, without other corroborative evidence, to distinguish a true memory from a false one."

This was quoted from the American Psychological Association. (I got this from the False Memory Syndrome Foundation website. I don't know if this counts as copy-righted material in its entirety.) The issue is quite simple. If the experts can't, so far as this quote indicates, distinguish true and false memories without corroborative evidence, how can non-educated laypeople, who seem to make the bulk of adherents, who regularly set up websites, forums, and write books?

Barring the insane, this elephant in the middle of the living room has been tackled by various believers that I've known personally. They find others who share their experiences. This has been, with some, the best form of measurement of the reality of a past life. (I won't go into details because their info is private.) The one major dilemma in attempting this situation is that for a past life that occurred far enough in the past that direct observers are currently deceased, you are very likely relating to another reincarnation claimant with the same issues of confabulation and cryptoamnesia that could easily invalidate their claims.

I'll end by saying this. The most grounded, most verified, most intelligent, most articulate, and most reasonable claimants that I've known (including myself) have all had either some background in paranormal beliefs or extracurricular paranormal beliefs that underscore our reincarnation beliefs.

I think that sizes it up.
 
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The biggest flaw in reincarnation are the memories. Where did they come from? It is impossible that you are born with them. Your memories are in your brain. You start out as an egg and sperm without a brain. Your memories are matter, in your brain. You cannot have any memories from past lives.

When you die you no longer have a memory. Your memories die with you completely.

Therefore sylvia cannot talk to dead people or whatever it is she claims she does. The dead will not have a clue who their relatives are, in fact the dead no longer think at all or communicate. They are dead.
Now I do know people think somehow our memories are magical non-matter things, and they somehow stay with our 'spirit' after death. This is not the case. It is just like saying water has a memory. It is impossible.

Unless you can trap a spirit and show me it has memories, then remembering past lives is not possible. Having a past life is ridiculous since you start out as an egg and sperm...

Now, the only possibility of saying you have any claim on past lives is in your dna. Every egg and every sperm has dna. You make new eggs and sperm and dna when you are developing individually, but that dna is an age old pattern interwoven with past patterns from your ancestors.

Where is that dna from the original sperm and egg? Well, I can say it really won't end up in your eggs or sperm..so your kids aren't going to have any age old dna, but the patterns are age old.

That is what I find fascinating. I have patterns of dna that go back to who knows how long!

Astral projectionists get round the problem by saying that a non-physical brains develops alongside your physical brain. Thus when your physical brain dies, the memories are still held in your "astral" brain.
 

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