I Am Soul

Nick227 said:
This is human nature but to me it also infers that many people here actually are not so interested in discerning any truth that might exist. They simply react to information depending on how it is presented.
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Of course there is an element of that, but it is far from universal. Many people here have a good deal of experience with dealing with poor teachers. You learn to work around it. I think there are plenty of people here who can see through the fog well enough.

Nick227 said:
Someone who tells me they will not believe me unless I present them with something in a certain way, well, I'm going to need quite a big motivation to bother, personally. Essentially, they are saying "Please manipulate me."
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Well, you are going to have to be convincing. While a sparkling personality will help, it won't do it all by itself. If you really have a convincing case, then you will convince people. Some of us are trying very hard to make some sense out of what you say, but none of it seems to be penetrating the fog.

Nick227 said:
It's very common, I find. Everyone believes what they feel is best, or most likely to be true, not based around assessing anything for themselves, but based around their judgments of the person presenting it to them.
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Is that what you do? If so, then you probably shouldn't use the word "everyone". It sounds a little smug, almost as if you presume that you are the only one who is capable of unbiased thinking here. I hope that is just due my poor comprehension and my inability to grasp your meaning.

Nick227 said:
It is rather amusing for a forum that ostensibly prides itself on its objectivity.
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I think you will find this forum compares quite favorably with most as far as actual discussion of ideas goes. True, we are a bit harsher on "unusual" philosophies here, but that sort of thins the herd of Bull.
 
Nick227 said:
This is human nature but to me it also infers that many people here actually are not so interested in discerning any truth that might exist. They simply react to information depending on how it is presented.

Someone who tells me they will not believe me unless I present them with something in a certain way, well, I'm going to need quite a big motivation to bother, personally. Essentially, they are saying "Please manipulate me."

It's very common, I find. Everyone believes what they feel is best, or most likely to be true, not based around assessing anything for themselves, but based around their judgments of the person presenting it to them. It is rather amusing for a forum that ostensibly prides itself on its objectivity.

Nick
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A snake-oil salesman goes to a fair and states categorically, "I have an elixir here that has been blessed by jesus and it will cure all known types of cancer. Look, the bottle has small spots of 'jesus' blood' on the label. It's only $500".

Believer(but not all): "Has it really been blessed by jesus"?

Snake-oil salesman: "Yep, it certainly has. Why there are at least 5 people in the last town I visited that would be dead by now if it wasn't for this 'jesus blessed elixir'".

Believer(but not all): "I'll have 2 bottles. One for my sick mother and one for my sick granny, for they are very very ill. Here is your money".

Skeptic: "What's in it, what town were you in, who are the people and what are the names of their doctors? I would like to know what I am taking before I part with my well-earned ready. And can you provide some sort of medical references for the product"?

Snake-oil salesman: "Hey we don't need to do that, just believe me, it works".

SKeptic: "I am sure it does but it won't hurt to check, will it"?

Snake-oil salesman: "Move along sir you are holding up the line, next sucke... oops customer please".


I don't care how 'out of the ordinary' things are presented on this forum but if they can't be verified, which by the way none have, then the persons presenting them risk what normally happens here.

Just making a statement such as, 'I've had an OBE' is great and I am very happy for the person who had it. But as for verification (proof), well that is a different matter and until you get me some of that, I am just going to think:

:crazy:
 
As well you should. Because without evidence or even an understanding that they could be mistaken--that's all you've got... people trying to bully you or shame you into "believing in them". Trust and respect should be earned not expected just "because". Those who seem to want the skeptic's understanding, aren't very big on showing that they understand the skeptical point of view-- though they themselves are skeptical of every claim or "subjective truth" that conflicts with their own.
 
Nick227 said:
Someone who tells me they will not believe me unless I present them with something in a certain way, well, I'm going to need quite a big motivation to bother, personally. Essentially, they are saying "Please manipulate me."
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That "certain way" of describing things is essential if we are to avoid being manipulated, not just by others, but even by our own desires.
 
articulett said:
As well you should. Because without evidence or even an understanding that they could be mistaken--that's all you've got... people trying to bully you or shame you into "believing in them". Trust and respect should be earned not expected just "because". Those who seem to want the skeptic's understanding, aren't very big on showing that they understand the skeptical point of view-- though they themselves are skeptical of every claim or "subjective truth" that conflicts with their own.
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Too often skeptics are labeled by those who's claims they tend to challenge as dogmatically closed to new ideas. This is certainly true for some individuals, but it isn't really how science works. I agree with Carl Sagan's very elegant and succinct statement:

"It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas … If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you … On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful ideas from the worthless ones."

Skepticism isn't the dogmatic rejection of new ideas, that's cynicism. Skepticism is the demand for a high standard of evidence and a willingness to scrutinize even long held theories with the knowledge that we are all too easy to fool and our "gut feelings" are too easily wrong.
 
Hey Navigator how ya doing?
Hee haw!
When you peel away an onion at the center is this little green bit that will grow again.
We are more like an acorn; the acorn doesn't know that one day it will be this majestic oak tree filled with new acorns.
All this when it's planted back into the dirt.
But the tree can be chopped down and turned into firewood and the onion can be eaten entirely.
But if some ones hand replants them?
We are all energy and energy is never lost only changed.
 
Navigator said:
Classic!

What - you guys finished with this thread now?
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Is this what you are resorting to now? If not, I have but one small question that you might have missed: If disembodied souls can see, hear feel etc. then why do we need sensory organs? That is, why can't the blind learn to replace their faulty sensory organs with the ability that you describe?
 
edge said:
Hey Navigator how ya doing?
Hee haw!
When you peel away an onion at the center is this little green bit that will grow again.
We are more like an acorn; the acorn doesn't know that one day it will be this majestic oak tree filled with new acorns.
All this when it's planted back into the dirt.
But the tree can be chopped down and turned into firewood and the onion can be eaten entirely.
But if some ones hand replants them?
We are all energy and energy is never lost only changed.
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Right on!
 

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'And what if, what I'm sayin' is, just what if our world and solar system is like a whachamacall electrode that is circlin some big honkin' atom. An what if that atom is just one of a bazillion atoms in a whole 'nother big honkin' universe. Wouldn't that be cool?

Hey, don't bogard.
 
Foster Zygote said:
Is this what you are resorting to now? If not, I have but one small question that you might have missed: If disembodied souls can see, hear feel etc. then why do we need sensory organs? That is, why can't the blind learn to replace their faulty sensory organs with the ability that you describe?
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There are two children that have I believe them to be in Sacramento California.
They are using clicking noise like bats or dolphins to see the world around them.
Echo location. It was on TV news the other night.
Then there is this.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

This is the second case like this that I have posted a link to.
Tricky says,
Hey, don't bogard.
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I knew you guys were high!
 
Tricky said:
'And what if, what I'm sayin' is, just what if our world and solar system is like a whachamacall electrode that is circlin some big honkin' atom. An what if that atom is just one of a bazillion atoms in a whole 'nother big honkin' universe. Wouldn't that be cool?

Hey, don't bogard.
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You obviously have no history with the chronic. It's "Bogart" as in Humphrey. Like "don't just sit there holding it and talking, pass it already!".

In the case of food it's "Borgnine" as in "don't Borgnine that sandwich".
 
Edge wrote: Hey Navigator how ya doing?
Hee haw!
When you peel away an onion at the center is this little green bit that will grow again.
We are more like an acorn; the acorn doesn't know that one day it will be this majestic oak tree filled with new acorns.
All this when it's planted back into the dirt.
But the tree can be chopped down and turned into firewood and the onion can be eaten entirely.
But if some ones hand replants them?
We are all energy and energy is never lost only changed.
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I really like this analogy. Surely only the individual can do the replanting though. Yes another question...are you suggesting otherwise Edge ? :)
 
I really like this analogy. Surely only the individual can do the replanting though. Yes another question...are you suggesting otherwise Edge ?
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The individual has freewill as to the choice, tree, firewood, and an acorn that grows or is infertile and turns back to dirt, the squirrel can come along and eat it, and the replanting is up to God?
Life, death, into the light, or into the darkness.

This is all assuming there is a soul which I know to be true.
 
edge said:
This is all assuming there is a soul which I know to be true.
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Why the ignorant are blissful

"Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it," wrote Kruger, now an assistant professor at the University of Illinois, and Dunning.

The deficiency in "self-monitoring skills," the researchers said, helps explain the tendency of the humor-impaired to persist in telling jokes that are not funny, of day traders to repeatedly jump into the market -- and repeatedly lose out -- and the politically clueless to continue holding forth at dinner parties on the fine points of campaign strategy.
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In other words, ignorant people are likely to "know" that they are right in their assesments. Educated people are likely to question their world view and provisionally accept as true their world view.
 
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