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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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You need to lose the ' Giganto ' evidence...

It doesn't even come close to the current Bigfoot myth ..

You might as well claim all the Bigfoot sightings were really just over sized, bipedal orangutans ..
 
Astro wrote:



Like I said before...




Another factor in dermining "plausibility", that we KNOW about...is the amount of wilderness land available for such a creature to live in. There's PLENTY of it.

So you believe in a "Bigfoot of the gaps" ?


Sweaty why are you not out in the woods looking for bigfoot?

A camera, a tent and some hours of your time are all that stand between you and immortality.

Trust me, you will have a much better chance of finding bigfoot in the forest than on the internet.
 
There is a basic principle which applies to how much weight an eyewitness testimony carries.

Here is an explanation, from this article...

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/extraproof.html




The weight that a person's eyewitness testimony holds is directly related to how plausible the claim is....before (a priori )the claim is investigated. Or....how plausible, or outrageous the claim is, using simple common knowledge and common sense.

For example....if someone says they saw a T-Rex walking through the woods, then their testimony holds NO weight, because we know, before (a priori) investigating the matter, that that is an impossibility.

If that same person says they saw someone steal a car, their testimony can hold a good deal of weight, because we know...a priori...that claim is a very plausible one.

The tricky thing to figure out....and agree on....is the "a priori plausibility" of claims which are in-between those two extreme examples.

Like, the "a priori plausibility" of "Bigfoot's existence". :)

Is it really so "outlandish" a thing, to think....before investigating...that such a creature could exist, somewhere on this planet?
It certainly is more outlandish to think that it could live in a suburb of Chicago, than out in the wilderness of the Pacific Northwest.

It's an important part of 'weighing' a person's testimony, because the extent to which it's either plausible, or implausible, is a major determining factor in applying a certain weight to someone's claim to have seen a Bigfoot.

We know that upright-walking primates do exist...;)...and we know that Giganto did exist, and it fits the basic description of Bigfoot, with the possible exception (and the only one, btw.) of the 'upright posture'.

I, personally, don't see any reason why Bigfoot's existence should be considered an "outrageous", or "highly implausible" claim...in certain parts of N. America.
Sweaty, you have made yet another very bad, very flawed, poorly thought argument.

As is so common with bigfoot enthusiasts, you talk about plausibility and bigfoot and talk about the Pacific NorthWest. Bigfoot, as variously reported is highly implausible. Again you are repeating flawed arguments that have already been dealt with. Why do you do this?

Bigfoot is reported all over the continent, in all types of areas, in a dizzing array of shapes, sizes, and colours. If we had park rangers in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest consistently reporting sightings of a bigfoot-type creature of consistent description then we'd have something that would be wrong to ignore. We have a genuine mystery and we would be remiss to dismiss it as implausible.

The reality is we have Joyce and her bigfoot at the corner of State Farm Road and US 203 in Valatie, NY. We have weirdo 2004 Kansas 3ft sideways shuffling little white yeti/ewok thing. We have bf2006's big dirty-white cracker bigfoot by the highway in front of somebody's house in an unwooded area in Mississippi. He said he was 95% sure he saw a real sasquatch. That what they saw was an actual bigfoot is very implausible. That creatures of such variety will come into human habitation in such a brazen manner and yet we have no proof or reliable evidence is extremely implausible. You can not dismiss these reports without demonstrating blatant filtration issues. What is very plausible is a social construct. We know without a doubt that phenomena such as that do occur.

Your argument on this subject has been completely dismantled. Never attempt to use it again if you have any interest in sincere critical debate. I'm pretty sure you don't so I think we'll be seeing it again soon.
 
Another factor in dermining "plausibility", that we KNOW about...is the amount of wilderness land available for such a creature to live in. There's PLENTY of it.

All you are doing is trying to appeal to the masses. That what the "common knowledge" argument is.

As for "plenty of wilderness", I am curious why not a single bigfoot was killed when thousands of wilderness acres were destroyed by Mt. St. Helens? Plenty of people, animals, houses, etc were all killed by the sudden explosion where all the technology in the world could not save people. Somehow, no bigfoot bodies showed up in the final count. You could also say that there are plenty of fairies in all that wilderness as well. One fact ("plenty of wilderness") does not justify the idea that bigfoot is plausible.
 
Expanding on what Hitch asked Sweaty regarding UFOs and given that we know Sweaty believes in Martian Civilization, extraterrestrial UFOs, and bigfoot, I have to ask - Sweaty, what do you think of the many reports of bigfoot involving UFO's?

And just out of curiosity out of all the Monster Quest beasts excluding giant squid (which we know to exist), which ones do you believe and which ones do you not and why?
 
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kitakaze wrote:
As is so common with bigfoot enthusiasts, you talk about plausibility and bigfoot and talk about the Pacific NorthWest.
Bigfoot, as variously reported is highly implausible.


Thanks for your near-worthless (2 cents) opinion, kitty. :)

What makes it so "highly improbable"....is it that you don't think millions of acres of wilderness are enough for a small population of them to live in?

Is there any place on this entire planet that you think the idea of such creatures existing would be plausible (even if not very likely)?
 
Thanks for your near-worthless (2 cents) opinion, kitty. :)

What makes it so "highly improbable"....is it that you don't think millions of acres of wilderness are enough for a small population of them to live in?
What's the matter with you? Didn't you actually read my post? I already explained explicitly what I think is highly improbable. Read that post again. I'm not coddling feeble comprehension.

Is there any place on this entire planet that you think the idea of such creatures existing would be plausible (even if not very likely)?
R-e-a-d t-h-e p-o-s-t, d-u-d-e. I already explained a plausible scenario and named a place for it. Besides, it's pointless to try and imagine a place where bigfoot could live undetected because that's not the phenomenom. We're talking about an 8ft giant bipedal primate being reported all over North America often in human inhabited areas. You're embarrassingly contradicting yourself.

Snap out of it, Sweaty. Astro and myself are schooling you silly. There are footers out there reading this thread groaning, saying "Sweaty, what are you trying to do? You're killing us here. Enough already." Maybe you should get Lyndon to spot you or something. Tag LAL, I don't know but you're sinking big time.

ETA: BTW, my opinion is far from worthless. It's the most logical one based on the facts. Try to twist that all you like, it won't change. At least until reliable evidence is forthcoming.
 
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I already explained a plausible scenario and named a place for it.

Besides, it's pointless to try and imagine a place where bigfoot could live undetected because that's not the phenomenon.

"Undetected" is not a requirement, kitty.
Bigfoot may exist somewhere, be detected (seen), and still remain "unproven".
Is that not a possibility??


Again, kitty....

Is there any place on this entire planet that you think the idea of such creatures existing would be plausible (even if not very likely)?


I'm not talking about "likely to exist"....only "plausible that it could exist".

There is a difference.


Sweaty, what do you think of the many reports of bigfoot involving UFO's?


I once read a report where a flying saucer landed...and an Alien, a Bigfoot, and Elvis :cool: stepped out of it. Now THAT one I believed! :boggled:
 
How surprising. Not a peep in response to how I explained bigfoot's improbability. Just like you, Sweaty. Just pretend it's not there.
"Undetected" is not a requirement, kitty.
Bigfoot may exist somewhere, be detected (seen), and still remain "unproven".
Is that not a possibility??

That is irrelevant and it's not a discussion on the semantics of possibility. Stay focused and don't evade the point. Yes bigfoot is alledgedly detected. Detected all over the continent. Detected in myriad colours, shapes, and sizes. Amazingly everytime it's been detected it is only by people who didn't obtain any reliable evidence. All these reports of bigfoot approaching human homes and crap never hits the fan. Ridiculous.


Again, kitty....




I'm not talking about "likely to exist"....only "plausible that it could exist".

There is a difference.

Again, Sweaty, stay focused. Deal with the situation at hand. You yourself believe that bigfoot exists from coast to coast and that it will come into human habitations. This is the scenario. It is extremely implausible that the North American continent is inhabited all over by 8ft giant bipedal primates that behave in the fashion that is alledgedly described without having reliable evidence to show for it.

I once read a report where a flying saucer landed...and an Alien, a Bigfoot, and Elvis :cool: stepped out of it. Now THAT one I believed! :boggled:
Evasion noted. Interesting. So you submit what you believe to be strong evidence of bigfoot and you submit what you believe to be strong evidence of UFO's. Many reports draw a connection between both and yet you offer nothing but jokes when asked for your opinion on that claimed connection. Why so flippant? Do you find it to be implausible?
 
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Drewbot - There's a werewolf suit-making website that shows the process to making a complete foot somewhere out there. Janos, Chambers and Wah used a similar method except that they had to heat up their molds.

Here's a couple of feet from Janos. The bottom one is him walking upright in his bear suit.


Here's the feet I made to wear with that foam suit:

I used my own foot and hand to push a shape into plaster-of-paris. I made each mold different in shape as Patty's feet seemed to be slightly different. The footprint on the far right is from the PG film site. Next to it is my mold in plaster copy.

Spray cooking spray into the mold after it dries. Then pour latex rubber or some other compound you can use like simple bathroom caulk. You can pour out the excess from the mold once that begins to dry. Come back in a couple of hours and you should be able to pull your foot sole from the mold and glue that to your costume.

William P - Yes. One of those guys is Tom Slick, but the one next to him is a man he is paying to track Bigfoot; Ivan Marx.
Here's another of Marx "training" the dogs to hunt Bigfoot for the expedition Green and Dahinden are on. The legs in the background are those of the boss, millionaire Tom Slick.

Many years later after Patterson and DeAtley made so much money on their film tour, Marx was fortunate enough to follow up with the same kind of scheme. Finding tracks of and filming a crippled beast. He did get his film distributed and he and his wife Peggy made a nice bundle I'm sure.

Sorry for the size of the Radford contract. I'll come back later on and post a larger version for you. Here's what it says though:
It's a legal contract signed on May 26, 1967 in which the Radford's agree to loan Patterson $700 and get back $850 by June 10 of '67. Patterson agrees to pay them a percentage of a film project he has in the works. It's witnessed and signed by other people, one being a Notary.

Other documents are basically attempts by the Radford's and others to collect from Patterson who refuses to pay them a dime.

After this Patterson and Merritt drove to Hollywood (as he did many times) and tried to get Nudie Cohn (a well known western outfitter of Hollywood cowboy stars and country music legends) to invest. That didn't happen, but something must have. Patterson knew the right people and had the money. $700 was worth roughly $4000 in those days. Not enough to finish his feature, but plenty enough to get a better Bigfoot suit than anyone had previously used and finish editing his project.

The cameraman/editor for the Bigfoot movie was a guy named FRED SMITH who worked at a local television station. He would be someone worth talking to I'm sure if he's still alive. I've heard he isn't. He might know why the earliest version of the film has Patty (and the tent pole trees) accidentally facing the wrong direction for a few frames. (*They used to tell editors to always remember to be careful with that splicer and remember which direction your actors are facing).

JACK OLIPHANT was a well known publicist. He was the one hired by Patterson and Merritt's manager PAT MASON to set up book signings and publicity events. Oliphant is interviewed by GREG LONG for his book. Merritt also mentions the New York party Oliphant arranged to try to interest potential investors. No one was buying it.

DEATLEY says he paid for the rooms and tickets and everything. I know LIFE magazine had something to do with their original trip to New York as they were trying to get all of the publicity they could to get the ball rolling. Still... only the BBC thing was working at this stage. No money but the free copy and use of the master would work to Patterson and DeAtley's favor.

They mixed the Pat Mason edit of the Fred Smith footage of the cowboys hunting Bigfoot with the BBC doc that interviewed various scientists and added DeAtley as announcer. THAT became the money-making Patterson-DeAtley tour film (although they neglected to inform Mason of this).

All that business of Gimlin playing an Indian tracker in the movie sort of went away when Gimlin's wife put her foot down. Besides, DeAtley and Patterson didn't need any of the other guys wanting a cut. DeAtley really ran the show until Patterson hooked up with the Olson's.

Patterson drove to Hollywood plenty of times. The exception seems to have been when he went with DeAtley and Gimlin. Apparently DeAtley bought plane tickets that time.

He talks about driving to Hollywood in his book when he just happened to stop by the exact spot where he would later film Patty and (wouldn't you know it) a Bigfoot just happens to leave tracks at that moment so he can cast them and write about it. His map marks the spot where he would come back to film Patty.

kitakaze -- Not only does that Orang have hair that looks too much like a cheap suit in a BBC documentary, it also has a complete Mr. Spock haircut. I find that as suspicious as the opposable thumb on the black foot of the red ape suit. What kind of fool does that Orang take me for? Color me offended.
 
kitakaze -- Not only does that Orang have hair that looks too much like a cheap suit in a BBC documentary, it also has a complete Mr. Spock haircut. I find that as suspicious as the opposable thumb on the black foot of the red ape suit. What kind of fool does that Orang take me for? Color me offended.
It's a Phil Spector original.

Hey, D, remember that late 80's Fox show, 'Werewolf' with Rick Baker doing the suits? Just curious what you thought of the suits.

FYI about the show:

The producers of the show established a 1-800 number where viewers could call to report "werewolf sightings", and many called to report sightings of what they believed were honest-to-God werewolves.
 
Dfoot

Chambers can't be faulted for the Bay of Pigs of course. Interesting shot of the BBC creature. There are some things that the BBC do better than others but FX isn't often thier strong suit. Except for the Kubricks and the like. But when it comes to detailing a specific time and place within the old Empire the BBC is amazing. I know of one instance where a certain car used in a production was refused because it sported the wrong tailights by 18 months for the year being portrayed. Yet they don't do monsters very well. Dr WHO makes me crindge.
 
I'm not talking about "likely to exist"....only "plausible that it could exist".

There is a difference.

It is plausible that fairies, elves, aliens, leprechauns, ghosts, dinosaurs, giants, cyclops, etc. all could exist in the northwest woods but have yet to be found. If you feel it justify's your argument by throwing bigfoot into that mix, go ahead. Trying to justify bigfoot eyewitness reports by suggesting it is "plausible" that bigfoot might exist is just not good enough. These eyewitness reports bring as much to the discussion as ghost stories and tall tales. They just aren't credible enough without the evidence to back them up.

We are once again off topic. Again, I ask how you can demonstrate, using the PGF, that it is not a man in a suit. I don't want to hear subjective opinions. I want to hear some actual analysis that we can all look at and agree upon.
 
All you are doing is trying to appeal to the masses. That what the "common knowledge" argument is.

As for "plenty of wilderness", I am curious why not a single bigfoot was killed when thousands of wilderness acres were destroyed by Mt. St. Helens? Plenty of people, animals, houses, etc were all killed by the sudden explosion where all the technology in the world could not save people. Somehow, no bigfoot bodies showed up in the final count. You could also say that there are plenty of fairies in all that wilderness as well. One fact ("plenty of wilderness") does not justify the idea that bigfoot is plausible.

Well how could an extinct species be found in the rubble? It was already gone by St Helen's
 
Based n the fact that there were no Sasquatch found in the aftermath of Mt St Helens. Or is that an erronious fact. Were there Sasquatch remains found in the aftermathof Mt St Helens?
This really shouldn't be too difficult. Let's try again.

It was already gone by St Helen's
I'm interested in the 'gone' part of this statement of fact. As in 'once was there'.

I'm of the opinion 'never were there'. I base this opinion on a complete lack of reliable evidence. Also that the alledged evidence submitted is of the same quality as that for extra-terrestrial visitation of Earth and ghosts, etc.

On what do you base the 'once was there' that the use of 'gone' connotates?
 
Scene set- shortly after filming the famous PGF footage, Bob Gimlin starts to follow the beast.

Roger, knowing that there were at least Three different sets of bigfoot tracks seen in this location earlier in the month, yells for Bob to come back.

So here is Roger, afraid of the lurking beasts, calling back Bob Gimlin who was chasing what would have been the greatest discovery in NA wildlife in the 20th century, because he was afraid of the others.

Yet, that same morning, Roger had gone off by himself and didn't return until 10 AM or so. So was he really afraid? or was he really fine, and just putting on a show for Bob?

Drew

When Roger went out that morning alone he was armed and had little reason to fear a potential encounter. After the PGF event he was on foot without rifle. Reason enough to want Gimlinwith rifle to stay close by. Not to say that this make it any mor real but under the circumstances as presented not bad reasoning.

Now for the genius who questioned the frequency with which fossils of ancient primates and homids are found these days go here another one just came in.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080326/ap_on_sc/spain_ancient_jawbone
 
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