Hitchens Indicts Obama

[Sefarst]

Your opinion of course, and you are entitled to it. I personally feel the inspiration he brings to many people is more than just hype. I agree the issues are important, though more to you than me as a Canadian. From the nomination pov, Hillary and Obama are so close, that the issues are less important in nominee selection.

For the Democrats, I suspect the major criteria is electability. As we agreed, both candidates are so close on the issues that voters would rationally only go for the one they think is the most likely to win. Obama seems the more electable of the two and I think its obvious he'll be the nominee.

I am not going to parse his characteristics, as it is the sum total that makes him different.

Fair enough, but I still think its hype.

Touche, but I am the first to admit that the recent OVER THE TOP bashing of Obama has beaten a good deal of the cynicism back into me.

TAM

Keep the skepticism. Don't fall for the winning smile. He does seem like a good guy though, there's just still a lot of unknowns for me when it comes down to it and I think he's still got a lot to answer when it comes to Reverend Wright.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'm getting tired of seeing Wright's foul language being described as "controversial."

So far as I know, no-one has done so.

"Controversial" is not a synonym for the word he should have used to describe Wright's language. That word is "inflammatory."

Which is, of course, the exact word that Obama used to describe his language.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Proof, please.


And you all ready had the entire transcript.


You're really making a habit of vacuous rhetoric, aren't you?



As has all ready been said, "God damn America" was one of several controversial statements. Hence the need for elaboration or was that too hard for you to follow?



Hey then, what kind of controversy did those other controversial statements cause? What were the statements? These are questions we need answered. More was said than just "God damn America".



Are you a reader at all?



Yes. (See, I can do that too)

And you ignore the fact that Obama had originally planned to keep Wright on his campaign even after we know he definitively heard those statements.

So, just to clarify, you have now given up on your claim that Obama lied to Olberman?

Good.

 

[Gurdur]

Can only racist bigot hate preachers comment on Rev. Wright then?

No, I don't think only Hitchens is the only one allowed to comment on Wright, but I also think it's wrong of you to describe Hitchens as racist; he may be bigoted and addicted to venom, but there is no evidence I know of to portray him as racist.

 

[UserGoogol]

I'm getting tired of seeing Wright's foul language being described as "controversial."
[snip]

Stop excusing Wright's vicious rants as being "controversial." They are not. Obama knew what he was doing when he carefully chose to misuse that word. "Controversial" is not a synonym for the word he should have used to describe Wright's language. That word is "inflammatory."

Controversial means inspiring dispute, inflammatory means inspiring anger or comprable emotions. Thus, controversial comments are a kind of inflammatory comments. Of course, it's not controversial in the sense that it doesn't inspire dispute among reasonable people, and that is one usage of the word controversial. But it was not the only usage, and Obama was clearly not the word that way. Surely you would agree that Wright's rants have inspired some definite passionate disputes between various parties.

Obama might've been craftily softening his language by choosing words like controversial, but I don't think what he said is particularly wrong.

 

[Sefarst]

So, just to clarify, you have now given up on your claim that Obama lied to Olberman?

Good.

Strawman wrapped in a dodge. Bravo, sir, bravo.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Strawman wrapped in a dodge. Bravo, sir, bravo.

I should have appreciated a straight answer, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.

So, just to clarify, you have now given up on your claim that Obama lied to Olberman, and are now so ashamed of it that you're trying to claim that this is a "strawman"?

Good.

 

[Sefarst]

I should have appreciated a straight answer, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.

So, just to clarify, you have now given up on your claim that Obama lied to Olberman, and are now so ashamed of it that you're trying to claim that this is a "strawman"?

Good.

Please tell me where I said Obama lied to Olbermann. I explained what I thought the comments suggested along with a long list of questions I wanted to know more about.

This quote suggests he had heard such language. More questions: what does Obama consider controversial? What were the controversial statements he admits to having heard? What were the criticisms of American foreign and domestic policy? The AIDS remark? The remarks about drugs? Further, as Hitchens pointed out, both he and Wright recognized a need for Obama to eventually distance himself from the Reverend. Why? Because Obama and Wright both knew about his fiery rhetoric, perhaps?

Then, as you may have noticed from the Olberman interview (or maybe not), Obama first stated that he had no intention of asking Reverend Wright to step down and then, suddenly, Wright does step down. Olberman asks if Obama changed his mind, Obama dodges by saying there was a recognition that Wright was near retirement and needed to step out of the spotlight. The most interesting part about that, though, is the fact that Obama, after seeing the clips and hearing the soundbites when the story first broke, had no intention of asking Wright to step down. Only after the political pressure was put on him by the media did Wright decide to leave the campaign (or was forced out, we don't know).

So what are we being asked to do here? That in 20 years and close personal time, he never heard Wright utter anything like the controversial statements we've heard so far. Even after we know Obama HAD heard those statements, Obama intended to keep him on the campaign and Wright only left the campaign after the political pressure heated up.

If the statements Obama had heard that were controversial were no different than any controversial statements other Americans may have heard in their churches, mosques or synagogues, why did Obama feel the need to eventually distance himself from Wright?

And you've yet to answer me on what video I supposedly posted that you watched that didn't back up my side but forced you to waste 8 minutes of your life. You also ignored the fact about Obama wanting to keep Wright in his campaign even after we definitively know he had heard the comments (the heart of my earlier suggestion).

 

[Dr Adequate]

Is there any chance we could have a straight answer before I let you run away from the argument and start whining about something else?

When Barack Obama said:

I did not hear such incendiary language myself, personally, either in conversations with him or when I was in the pew. He always preached the social gospel and was sometimes controversial in the same way that many people who'd speak out on social issues are controversial.

... is there any evidence that he was not telling the truth?

It's a yes or no question.

 

[Sefarst]

Is there any chance we could have a straight answer before I let you run away from the argument and start whining about something else?

When Barack Obama said:

... is there any evidence that he was not telling the truth?

It's a yes or no question.

YES! I have all ready said his statements, actions and seeming intentions suggest to me that he was not telling the truth. The fact that he planned to distance himself from Wright, the fact that he didn't plan to take him off the campaign after we know for sure Obama heard those statements, the fact that he states he had heard disagreeable and "controversial" (apparently a charged word with you) statements, and his 20 year relationship all suggest he's lying. It seems rather obvious to me unless he has very good answers to the questions I posed earlier. My hope is that he will be questioned even further.

You complaint seems to be that my evidence is circumstantial. But how much disbelief are you and Barack Obama asking me to suspend?

 

[Dr Adequate]

And you've yet to answer me on what video I supposedly posted that you watched that didn't back up my side but forced you to waste 8 minutes of your life.

My apologies, I was confusing you with Cincinatus, another loon who kept telling me that his claims that Obama was a liar were backed up by videos of Obama's speeches while refusing to quote anything that he considered a lie. See the thread on Huckabee's comments on the Wright affair for further details.

 

[Cicero]

I don't think it's very important, but does anyone know if he actually had them baptized or if they were just baptized?

Yes. Actually, truly, Baptized, as in a church with Holly Water......

It is amazing that Hitchens was the darling of the left when he was writing scathing commentary about conservatives in The Nation. But when he started to support Bush 43's Iraq policies, he became a "vile drunk" and was eventually excommunicated from that magazine.

Hitchens is the David Brock liberal syndrome in reverse.

 

[Dr Adequate]

YES! I have all ready said his statements, actions and seeming intentions suggest to me that he was not telling the truth. The fact that he planned to distance himself from Wright, the fact that he didn't plan to take him off the campaign after we know for sure Obama heard those statements, the fact that he states he had heard disagreeable and "controversial" (apparently a charged word with you) statements, and his 20 year relationship all suggest he's lying.

In what way do they suggest that?

What do you mean by a "charged word"?

 

[Sefarst]

Yes. Actually, truly, Baptized, as in a church with Holly Water......

Yes, but did he have it done to them in the sense that he took them to church when they were infants (in the case of infant baptism) and told a pastor to baptize them, or did his children become Christians on their own and choose to get baptized at a later date?

It is amazing that Hitchens was the darling of the left when he was writing scathing commentary about conservatives in The Nation. But when he started to support Bush 43's Iraq policies, he became a "vile drunk" and was eventually excommunicated from that magazine.

Partisanship. Have you seen him in the Galloway debate?

 

[Dr Adequate]

So, just to clarify, you have now given up on your claim that Obama lied to Olberman?

Strawman.

When Barack Obama said:

I did not hear such incendiary language myself, personally, either in conversations with him or when I was in the pew. He always preached the social gospel and was sometimes controversial in the same way that many people who'd speak out on social issues are controversial.

... is there any evidence that he was not telling the truth?

YES! I have all ready said his statements, actions and seeming intentions suggest to me that he was not telling the truth.

You have quite an idosyncratic use of the word "strawman". I ask you if you still think he was lying to Olberman, and you declare this a "strawman". I quote what he said to Olberman and ask you if it was untrue, and you say "YES!"

 

[Sefarst]

In what way do they suggest that?

Look up circumstantial evidence. I feel like I've explained my position at great length by this point. If you have a specific question about a certain point in any of the things I mentioned, then please ask it. Otherwise I'm just repeating myself.

What do you mean by a "charged word"?

You've been harping on it to no end and at least one other poster has posted specifically about it. Obama admits to hearing controversial comments but not THOSE controversial comments (though, as was shown in another thread, there's actually more controversial comments besides those that have been harped on to no end). Well, as you said, controversial comments cause controversy. Controversy has erupted over the current comments of Wright, so those comments are controversial (which, as has been pointed out, is an understatement). When Obama says he heard OTHER controversial comments, can I assume they are similar to those that have been played all over the news?

P.S: While we're discussing your vocabulary, did you find out what "disillusioned" means?

Are you sure you're talking about me this time? Go back and double check for me.

 

[dirtywick]

Is there any chance we could have a straight answer before I let you run away from the argument and start whining about something else?

When Barack Obama said:

... is there any evidence that he was not telling the truth?

It's a yes or no question.

My opinion, yes he was telling the truth. Fact of the matter is Obama could have been fully aware of Wright's views from the jump and he could have talked about them every Sunday and Obama would still be telling the truth.

What does any of that mean? Because he didn't actually deny or confirm anything, whatever we want it to, that's why it was such a good answer.

 

[Sefarst]

You have quite an idosyncratic use of the word "strawman". I ask you if you still think he was lying to Olberman, and you declare this a "strawman". I quote what he said to Olberman and ask you if it was untrue, and you say "YES!"

I think you're attributing a stronger position to me than I hold. Saying definitively that Obama lied to Olbermann is a positive claim.

Think of it as in a religious debate. If I say the evidence suggests to me that there is no God (in other words, I'm open to the possibility if you have counter evidence or can answer my questions), that's a different position than definitively saying to someone that there is no God. You might accuse me of nitpicking, but I carefully chose words like "suggest" when I made my posts and I was careful to immediately qualify them with questions I want answered to be convinced otherwise.

I'm telling you how his comments strike me, what suspicions they arise in me, and what concerns and questions I have. I think you got so excited attacking corplinx that you assumed his statement, that he had definitively heard Obama essentially admit to lying, was mine. Maybe not, elaborate if you'd like.

That said, I stand by the position I've had.

PS: I'll be going to bed soon. So if you think you've caught me in some kind of contradiction or want to accuse me of not knowing something/wasting your time/having a bad vocabulary/etc., leave a message after the beep and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

 

[Cicero]

Yes, but did he have it done to them in the sense that he took them to church when they were infants (in the case of infant baptism) and told a pastor to baptize them, or did his children become Christians on their own and choose to get baptized at a later date?



Partisanship. Have you seen him in the Galloway debate?

When they were iddy bitty babies.

I have yet to see anyone get the better of Hitchens in a debate.

 

[corplinx]

Unlike other politicians, you shouldn't form an opinion of Barack Obama based on circumstantial evidence. He's a different kind of politician.