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Noma?

Do you support NOMA?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 11.1%
  • No

    Votes: 52 82.5%
  • Other (will explain)

    Votes: 4 6.3%

  • Total voters
    63

Thanks for the link, but I'm still confused.

I'm not very good at word games. I'm better at Sudoku than Crosswords ;)

If your looking for a philosophical discussion on NOMA and it's ramifications, I'll leave that to someone else. I don't do philosophy well.

If your claiming that what matters about the world of religion is only the opinion of some select few with hidden/inner knowledge, and not the masses that make up the bulk of any religion, then my opinion differs.

If your point is something else, then I'm lost.:confused:
 
You're half right...which unfortunately makes you half wrong too.

Science deals with the testable (or the falsifiable): That much is true. It doesn't follow from that that NOMA is an inherent part of the 'scientific principle', in that you still have to account for the other magesteria. Simply assuming that there are things that science cannot know is one unfounded assumption that you have made, and assuming that religion can provide us with any real information that science cannot is another unwarranted assumption.

It may be that there are things that science can never know, but it would be wrong to assume so.

Similarly, it may be that religion can provide us with real information that science cannot, but it would be wrong to assume so.
You are making an interesting point. However, I'm not sure NOMA does indeed make these assumptions. It restricts the area in which science and religion have the right to work. Science, however, has already restricted itself by its principle. NOMA implies that there is an area for religion to work in - science does not, because it does not concern itself with matters outside its area. What is the problem?
 
I'm with you on that no one is above having dumb ideas, but I still fail to see what makes NOMA one.
It's silly, IMO, because it serves no purpose. It gives the impression that religion can reveal as truth concepts that science and philosophy can't.

First, assuming it's true, this does not make NOMA bad.
I never said NOMA is bad, only silly.

Philosophy is still unrestricted, and if you prefer it above religion, then NOMA is not preventing you from using it.
Religion is often dogmatic and brings with it a lot of ancient mythological baggage.

I don't need NOMA to look at the world from a philosophical POV. I don't need to justify philosophical inquiry.

Second, it is an inherent property of the field which NOMA attributes to religion that 'truth' is not definable by the means I would guess you are using to define it - scientific ones.
I'm happy with deductive and inductive reasoning. These leaves plenty of room for science and philosophy and I can cut out all of the mythological baggage and pre-assumptions.

If a proposition can't be analyzed using inductive or deductive reasoning then what good is it?
 
If your claiming that what matters about the world of religion is only the opinion of some select few with hidden/inner knowledge, and not the masses that make up the bulk of any religion, then my opinion differs.


Why? Its the same with science. The bulk of atheists, agnostics, and skeptics aren't highly trained scientists, are they? The atheist on the street isn't a scientist. They are an average joe. They aren't one of the 'select few'. They are informed by the 'select few with inner knowledge', the ones who have devoted their life to it. We can't ALL do that now can we.

So we have a divide in the magesteria of science, and a divide in the magesteria of religion. Is that really so surprising?
 
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Well, I meant in this thread, right here. I know that most of those who have opposed NOMA so far - including yourself, I guess - hold science in high regard, and see no reason to protect religion. I got that impression from that you and others are arguing against NOMA, seemingly to protect science. Since you're the authority on your own motivations, I presume I was wrong.

I do not think the majority of scientists feel that NOMA poses a problem to science.

Just to get it out of the way, I'm not trying to protect science or religion.

I think science should go where the research leads it. If there is a question, the answer to which might help us get a better understanding of something, I think it is valid ground for research (assuming it is a question that can be studied via the scientific method).

The only danger I see to science is the possible backlash from the religious, as their god box is made smaller and smaller through the insights given us by science. This isn't something I stay awake at night fearing, but I do see a potential for conflict between science and religion (think stem cell research, or any number of other areas where science has stepped on the toes of the religious).

I simply think that science covers too broad an area, and religion is generally based on non scientific answers to questions that in many cases can be touched on, if not answered directly, by science. I think willfully or accidentally, science has and will produce evidence that tends to contradict what religions hold sacred.
 
I simply think that science covers too broad an area, and religion is generally based on non scientific answers to questions that in many cases can be touched on, if not answered directly, by science.


For example the Virgin Birth? It seems to touch on biology.
 
Why? Its the same with science. The bulk of atheists, agnostics, and skeptics aren't highly trained scientists, are they? The atheist on the street isn't a scientist. They are an average joe. They aren't one of the 'select few'. They are informed by the 'select few with inner knowledge', the ones who have devoted their life to it. We can't ALL do that now can we.

So we have a divide in the magesteria of science, and a divide in the magesteria of religion. Is that really so surprising?

I would not call it surprising. I would call it something else. But forum rules forbid me :(

Let's just say I believe your inner circle of the religious exist primarily in your mind (with possible exceptions for Catholics and a few other religions). And I don't see what such a learned group of the religious have to do with this topic anyway.

NOMA was the topic. I don't believe it is a valid concept for the various reasons I've given.

Perhaps it is valid in your mind, with your little group of religious insiders.

In my view of the real world, I don't think it holds water. :)
 
Why? Its the same with science. The bulk of atheists, agnostics, and skeptics aren't highly trained scientists, are they? The atheist on the street isn't a scientist. They are an average joe. They aren't one of the 'select few'. They are informed by the 'select few with inner knowledge', the ones who have devoted their life to it. We can't ALL do that now can we.

Science:
  • Science has competing egos tearing apart each others ideas. The good ideas lead to consensus and persist the bad ideas fall away.
  • Scientists make predictions based on their ideas. They then set out and prove them by making things like atom bombs or by traveling to the moon.
  • We see real results with thousands and thousands of examples including cars, microwaves, computers, rocket ships, planes, medicine, etc., etc. We have practical evidence that science works. We don't need to figure out if difficult concepts are true we only need to understand the scientific method and why we can trust it (but always keep a healthy dose of skepticism).
Religion:
  • More and more religions with mutually exclusive concepts and ideas and little consensus.
So we have a divide in the magesteria of science, and a divide in the magesteria of religion.
No, we just have divisions in scientific hypothesis that lead to futher and further understanding of the natural world and we have many different fragmented religions with contradictory beliefs.

Huge difference.

The average person has more than ample reason to trust the scientific method (if you don't then might I suggest that you not use your car).
 
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For example the Virgin Birth? It seems to touch on biology.

I would say the virgin birth falls outside science, but certainly science would tend to dispute it. Science can not prove that Jesus was not born of a virgin. It can only offer strong evidence against it's likelihood.

The Tower of Babel could be viewed as a miracle, but there is very strong evidence that languages developed as we spread over the earth. Archeology, linguistics, and maybe a few other sciences, provide very strong evidence against the Babel story.

Geology and possibly other "Earth" sciences give very strong evidence against a global flood.

Biology gives very good indications that there is no life after death, though I have doubts that the evidence will ever be strong enough to convince the deeply religious.
 
Let's just say I believe your inner circle of the religious exist primarily in your mind (with possible exceptions for Catholics and a few other religions). And I don't see what such a learned group of the religious have to do with this topic anyway.


Oh it exists all right, but you might have the wrong idea of it. The words 'inner circle' might be evoking images of secret societies and conspiracy theories and whatnot in your mind, and that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the evolution of religion, and the laws which govern it's evolution. There is no way to understand this without understanding the exoteric/esoteric divide to some degree. This has direct bearing on NOMA, because it is the outer exoteric layer of religion which violates the borders of the magesteria, like a loose cannon. Not the inner esoteric layer.

Perhaps it is valid in your mind, with your little group of religious insiders.


See, the very fact that you think it is 'only valid in my mind' reveals the depth of your ignorance. That's ok, ignorance can be corrected. Most people are ignorant of such things. So don't take it as an insult.
 
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See, the very fact that you think it is 'only valid in my mind' reveals the depth of your ignorance. That's ok, ignorance can be corrected. Most people are ignorant of such things. So don't take it as an insult.
Ok, correct our ignorance. My thanks to you in advance. This should be interesting.
 
The average person has more than ample reason to trust the scientific method (if you don't then might I suggest that you not use your car).

Strawman. NOMA says nothing about any lack in the scientific method. In fact, I would assume that the scientific method would be precluded from working in the religious magisterium.
 
Oh it exists all right, but you might have the wrong idea of it. The words 'inner circle' might be evoking images of secret societies and conspiracy theories and whatnot in your mind, and that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the evolution of religion, and the laws which govern it's evolution. There is no way to understand this without understanding the exoteric/esoteric divide. This has direct bearing on NOMA, because it is the outer exoteric layer of religion which crosses the borders of the magesteria. Not the inner esoteric layer.




See, the very fact that you think it is 'only valid in my mind' reveals the depth of your ignorance. That's ok, ignorance can be corrected. Most people are ignorant of such things. So don't take it as an insult.


Well, all I have to say is that when half the people of a nation the size of the USA dispute evolution, and believe in some form of creation, I think it matters not if they are Exoteric or Esoteric (or any other words you choose to banter about) there is a problem. When you consider that the reason for their belief is mostly based on religion, it clearly (in my view) shows an overlap of science and religion, and that is what NOMA claims doesn't exist, unless I'm missing something.
 
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NOMA is a cheap attempt to lend credibility to a specific subset of untestable and unfalsifiable concepts, with no good reason given as to why we should respect such a subset of the untestable and unfalsifiable but not the entire set. It is arbitrary and solves nothing.

The only problem that needs solving is the confusion between the two subjects, which NOMA does quite clearly. It states the the comparison between religion and science is one of apples and oranges. One deals with the realm of subjective value judgments, moral philosophy, and codes of conduct [religion] while the other deals with the acquisition of objective facts and their application [science]. Trying to construe the two things as inherently inimical is categorically nonsensical.
 
I would say the virgin birth falls outside science, but certainly science would tend to dispute it. Science can not prove that Jesus was not born of a virgin. It can only offer strong evidence against it's likelihood.


If it falls outside of science, then wouldn't disputing it by "offering strong [scientific] evidence against it's likelihood" be a violation of NOMA?

On the other hand, if claims of a literal virgin birth fall outside of religion, then isn't it fair game for science to dispute it?
 
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Well, all I have to say is that when half the people of a nation the size of the USA dispute evolution, and believe in some form of creation, I think it matters not if they are Exoteric or Esoteric (or any other words you choose to banter about) there is a problem. When you consider that the reason for their belief is mostly based on religion, it clearly (in my view) shows an overlap of science and religion, and that is what NOMA claims doesn't exist, unless I'm missing something.

If we were living in atheist Soviet Era Russia we would be in deep trouble for teaching Darwinian natural selection when the state dogma was that Lysenkoism was the only true and value theory of biology. The problem is institutional dogma and not religion, per se. .
 
You are making an interesting point. However, I'm not sure NOMA does indeed make these assumptions. It restricts the area in which science and religion have the right to work. Science, however, has already restricted itself by its principle. NOMA implies that there is an area for religion to work in - science does not, because it does not concern itself with matters outside its area. What is the problem?

The restriction science places upon itself are based upon philosophical ideas at to how we can ever access 'truth' (if indeed we can access it at all). Science restricts itself to that which is testable (or falsifiable) because it recognises that those are the only claims that we can ever have any insight into the truth of. Take, for example, and unfalsifiable claim - we'll use in this case that an invisible, immaterial and undetectable elephant sneezes on people and makes them itch. What does a universe containing this unfalsifiable entity look like? Compare it to a universe that does not contain this unfalsifiable entity. What differences are there between the two worlds?

The answer, strangely enough (or not if you were expecting it), is that there is no difference. When one posits an unfalsifiable entity, one is describing an object that necessarily has no influence on the observable universe (because if it did have an influence we could test for it, and it would no longer be unfalsifiable). One could imagine that the entity influences the unobservable universe, but then one runs into the same issues of justification as before: How do we know an unobservable universe exists if we can't, by definition, observe it? And, following on from that, what does it even mean to say that such an object or place exists, given that we can never know of its existence, and that it can not influence the observable universe in any way?

Certainly there are issues that science cannot tackle - ethical systems, while they can be studied by science, can be devised and/or codified only by philosophers. If science were to devise an ethical system, it would run afoul of the rule that one should not obtain a normative statement from a descriptive statement. In much the same way, a philosopher can develop an ethical system that he believes to be perfect, and a scientist could study how well the system actually works in practise. And the boundaries are not clearly defined - there is blurring around the edges, and many people play dual roles as scientists and philosophers (though that does not make the science they do philosophy any more than it makes the philosophy they do science).

But where for religion to fit in? Put simply, it doesn't. Religions claim to provide answers to the questions posed by philosophers and scientists, but they fail even the most basic levels of inquiry. That is not to say that religion has never done any good - it obviously has - but where it has done good it has not done so because any religion has truth to it, but instead because it has provided a united community, and in that there is power; power that can be used for good or for evil...and most commonly for both. But this does not make religion necessary, and it does not lend credence to the truth of any religion.

That is why the NOMA argument fails. The domains of the magesteria of science and philosophy overlap in many areas, thus violating the idea of 'non-overlapping magesteria', and the magesteria of religion necessarily violates both the magesteria of science and philosophy while not itself having any established claim to truth.
 
Strawman.
"Strawman"?

NOMA says nothing about any lack in the scientific method. In fact, I would assume that the scientific method would be precluded from working in the religious magisterium.
I don't give a damn what NOMA says. It's silly. The religious magisteria is a function of geography and or familial ties.
  • If you were born in Utah or to Mormon parents it is very likely that your set of truths is based on the ideas of Joseph Smith.
  • If you were born in a predominately Muslim nations or to Muslim parents it is very likely that your set of truths is based on the ideas of Mohammad.
  • If you were born in a predominately Catholic nation or to Catholic parents then it is very likely that your set of truths is based on the ideas of the Nicene Council.
The religious magesteria works very little if at all and it reveals nothing as truth that philosophy can't.

On top of all of that is demonstrably dogmatic, contradictory and loaded with mythological baggage and presuppositions.
 
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The only problem that needs solving is the confusion between the two subjects, which NOMA does quite clearly. It states the the comparison between religion and science is one of apples and oranges. One deals with the realm of subjective value judgments, moral philosophy, and codes of conduct [religion] while the other deals with the acquisition of objective facts and their application [science]. Trying to construe the two things as inherently inimical is categorically nonsensical.
No more than comparing two little girls playing house and science as inherently inimical is categorical nonsense.

Perhaps but who cares?

Just because religion deals with subjective value judgments, moral philosophy and codes of conduct doesn't mean that it can reveal anything as truth in a way that philosophy can't.

Religion is often dogmatic, full of mythological baggage and presuppositions. It's is a function of geography and/or familial ties. It is often mutually contradictory.

In short, it's a very bad tool.
 
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If we were living in atheist Soviet Era Russia we would be in deep trouble for teaching Darwinian natural selection when the state dogma was that Lysenkoism was the only true and value theory of biology. The problem is institutional dogma and not religion, per se. .
Yes, and since religion is very often dogmatic, is infused with mythology and presuppositions then it makes for poor philosophical inquiry.

Religion is handicapped philosophy.
 

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