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Noma?

Do you support NOMA?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 11.1%
  • No

    Votes: 52 82.5%
  • Other (will explain)

    Votes: 4 6.3%

  • Total voters
    63
These two views are pretty much opposites. The only place for NOMA, IMHO, is with those religious people that take the bible at something less than face value.

That's enough room for NOMA, since the Bible is not supposed to be taken at face value.

Those who believe that "god created man in his image, in part of a seven day period of creation, during which the earth and the universe were also created. And all this happened about 6000 years ago" are YEC, right? They take the Bible at face value, and try to prove the earth is 6000 years old. So they are making an empirical claim about the age of the earth, right? That's a NOMA violation I would say. Therefore YEC science is religious pseudoscience.

But if someone is religious and does not take the Bible at face value and they make no empirical claims then there is no overlap, right?
 
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Religion does not reveal any truths that science or philosophical inquiry can't

It might be a separate magisteria but it doesn't uniquely tell us anything other than contradictory speculation and superstition. Furthermore, it is often found, after the fact, to be wrong.
 
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Religion does not reveal any truths that science or philosophical inquiry can't

Is this an empirical claim you're making? A philosophical claim? What?

Furthermore, it is often found, after the fact, to be wrong.


Often found wrong by what? By science? That would mean there was a NOMA violation by religion. In order for a religious "truth" to be found wrong, it has to make itself vulnerable to empirical investigation by violating boundaries of magisterium, right? Otherwise how could science investigate the claim in the first place.
 
Is this an empirical claim you're making? A philosophical claim? What?
I'm simply using inductive reasoning. You may call it philosophical if you want.

Often found wrong by what? By science? That would mean there was a NOMA violation by religion. In order for a religious "truth" to be found wrong, it has to make itself vulnerable to empirical investigation by violating boundaries of magisterium, right? Otherwise how could science investigate the claim in the first place.
Religion often makes scientific claims (see Geocentric Model). However I'm willing to concede that when religion does so it leaves the domain that is the topic of the discussion so I will withdraw that for the purpose of this discussion.

And to anticipate any further rebuttal, yes, science is often found wrong after the fact.
 
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I'm simply using inductive reasoning. You may call it philosophical if you want.

Religion often makes scientific claims (see Geocentric Model). However I'm willing to concede that when religion does so it leaves the domain that is the topic of the discussion so I will withdraw that for the purpose of this discussion.

But on the other hand religion did not make the claim, they embraced, what at the time, was a well founded cosomolgy model. Similar to the modern Catholic Church's acceptance of the Big Bang. Yes they did hang onto the model well after it's use by date, but it was the dominant cosmolgy model for over a 1000 years.
 
At first, I was wondering why there was a poll on the New Orleans Museum of Art.

I should have known it would simply be more nonsense regarding religion.
 
Like Kopji, I have read the book where Gould introduces the term, and my issue with the concept is that there is no good definition of what religion's magesteria should be. Gould used morality, I would disagree. Morality can certainly come from religion, but it does not have to, and I think morality should not be dictated by religion in this day and age, which is what NOMA implies. Considering many of the world's religions support different moralities, heck if I know where to begin sorting it all out.

I also tend to think that an "ultimate meaning" is meaningless, but that is a different thread.
 
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At first, I was wondering why there was a poll on the New Orleans Museum of Art.

I should have known it would simply be more nonsense regarding religion.

Given that it was an athiest who coined and tried to define the term, I am not exactly sure what your point is
 
There's evidence-based belief (science, for instance); and there's non-evidence-based belief (religion, for instance).

Some beliefs in the latter group actively fly in the face of the available evidence; they're based on an ancient book of myths whose claims aren't even internally consistent or rational, let alone consistent with what we now know about the real world.

If we start from a false assumption that the book is accurate, then it suddenly seems obvious that these beliefs need *protection* against all that nasty evidence and rational thinking in the former group. Quick, let's declare that religion is Special and Different, and immune from normal science!
 
But on the other hand religion did not make the claim, they embraced, what at the time, was a well founded cosomolgy model. Similar to the modern Catholic Church's acceptance of the Big Bang. Yes they did hang onto the model well after it's use by date, but it was the dominant cosmolgy model for over a 1000 years.
My point was quite simply that religion cannot reveal any truths that science or philosophical inquiry can't. Regardless of how religion came to hold an incorrect truth it held it. So did science but science had the means to correct the error.

That point stands.
 
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Given that it was an athiest who coined and tried to define the term, I am not exactly sure what your point is
Atheists are not infaliable. I like Gould but I think his idea about NOMA was nonsense.
 
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That's enough room for NOMA, since the Bible is not supposed to be taken at face value.

Those who believe that "god created man in his image, in part of a seven day period of creation, during which the earth and the universe were also created. And all this happened about 6000 years ago" are YEC, right? They take the Bible at face value, and try to prove the earth is 6000 years old. So they are making an empirical claim about the age of the earth, right? That's a NOMA violation I would say. Therefore YEC science is religious pseudoscience.

But if someone is religious and does not take the Bible at face value and they make no empirical claims then there is no overlap, right?

I think anyone fitting the small box indicated by the bolded line would be at best marginally religious.

I've known Christians that believe god created man, using evolution as his tool. Most of these accept the possibility of the "Day = Age" interpretation of Genesis. They still believe god started and drove the process. And I would wager that the only reason they consider this possibility is because they accept the scientifically established age of the earth, and evidence for evolution. Not knowing a way to dispute the scientific evidence, they compromise.

In my opinion, if you exclude everything in the bible that has been proved false by science, there is very little for the religious to claim (speaking about the Jewish/Christian faiths primarily). Was there a flood? Science says no. Did our world's many languages develop over a long period of time, as humans spread around the world? Or was it done in one fell swoop at the tower of Babel? Is there life after death? While science may not have proof that there is no life after death, there is certainly strong evidence against it. If our thoughts are the mere function of chemical and electrical processes taking place in our brains, and if these functions stop on death, then it's not very likely that there is a spirit would. That pretty much hits the heart of every major religion I know anything about.

I have to get ready for work, but here's another view that touches on what I've said (though from a slightly different view point). Not saying I totally agree with this guy, but he was the best thing Google offered when I searched, looking for opposing views :)

http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/3044/Default.aspx

An excerpt- "Obviously, things cannot be quite this simple. Even if one ignores what Ian Barbour has shown us in a helpful taxonomy, namely that Gould's NOMA is not the only possible stance on the science/religion relationship, the Gouldian separation ploy requires some further work. Prima facie, Genesis does tell us things which conflict with science - six days of creation, humans last, world-wide flood, tower of Babel, and so forth. If you are to insist that there is no conflict - and, in respects, I am happy to go along with Gould on this - then you have got to work to show that Genesis properly understood and science properly understood do not conflict. Prima facie conflict is no more than that -- prima facie -- and not definitive."
 
I voted "yes", although "support" is not necessarily the word I would use. I think Noma helps describe why there is no inherent conflict between science and religion.

Science cannot answer the question, "Is it wrong to steal?" It shouldn't even try to answer that question. You can scientifically study the effects on a society if there are no laws, strict laws, or less strict laws related to stealing, but that doesn't answer the question. Indeed, and question of "right and wrong" isn't really scientific.

Nevertheless, questions of morality are important to us. We care about what doing the "right" thing, and we often wonder what that right thing is. At that time, we turn to others for advice, and religion is one place where we turn.

Religion cannot prove the answers that it gives, but that doesn't make the answers less important.
 
As far as I know, the vast majority of infringements on this rule are made by religion.

Good point. When religious people try to answer the question, "How old is the Earth," they are invading scientific turf.

I sometimes do, however, see a conflict the other way. I might ask the question, "Why are we here?" A scientist might mistakenly give an explanation of how we got here, but that misses the point. Worse yet, they might emphatically insist that there is no "reason", and that their claim is a scientific one. If they've done that, they've missed the point.
 
I voted "yes", although "support" is not necessarily the word I would use. I think Noma helps describe why there is no inherent conflict between science and religion.

Science cannot answer the question, "Is it wrong to steal?" It shouldn't even try to answer that question. You can scientifically study the effects on a society if there are no laws, strict laws, or less strict laws related to stealing, but that doesn't answer the question. Indeed, and question of "right and wrong" isn't really scientific.

Nevertheless, questions of morality are important to us. We care about what doing the "right" thing, and we often wonder what that right thing is. At that time, we turn to others for advice, and religion is one place where we turn.

Religion cannot prove the answers that it gives, but that doesn't make the answers less important.


Nonsense.
 
Nevertheless, questions of morality are important to us. We care about what doing the "right" thing, and we often wonder what that right thing is. At that time, we turn to others for advice, and religion is one place where we turn.
Yes, but should we? Does religion provide any answers that secular philosophy can't?

Religion cannot prove the answers that it gives, but that doesn't make the answers less important.
What does make those answers important?

BTW, there is no reason to suppose that we can't understand the basis for our sense of morality from a scientific (neurological) basis.

IMO, questions of morality are best answered apart from religion because religion brings with it so much baggage and assumptions that are often rooted in ancient mythology.

For a discussion on morality sans religion please listen to last weeks Freedom From Religion podcast.

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/ffrf/FTradio_99_031508.mp3
 
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I sometimes do, however, see a conflict the other way. I might ask the question, "Why are we here?" A scientist might mistakenly give an explanation of how we got here, but that misses the point. Worse yet, they might emphatically insist that there is no "reason", and that their claim is a scientific one. If they've done that, they've missed the point.
But why religion? Religion seems arbitrary and biased in its base assumptions. Why not get rid of the template and simply deal with such questions head on without any pre-set assumptions. Now, this isn't to say that any all arguments that originate in religion should be discarded. Only that we leave ourselves open to any and all arguments. Religion seems to start out by limiting arguments that can be considered.

I would feel encumbered to philosophically consider such questions by using religion.
 
It is a curious quirk of doublethink psychology, that might not be terribly healthy for everyone. But, we have bigger fish to fry, don't you think?

Oh, it's not something that I really bother with too much - you're right, there are far more important issues to consider (especially when this one is, for all means and purposes, bunk).

I voted "yes", although "support" is not necessarily the word I would use. I think Noma helps describe why there is no inherent conflict between science and religion.

Science cannot answer the question, "Is it wrong to steal?" It shouldn't even try to answer that question. You can scientifically study the effects on a society if there are no laws, strict laws, or less strict laws related to stealing, but that doesn't answer the question. Indeed, and question of "right and wrong" isn't really scientific.

Nevertheless, questions of morality are important to us. We care about what doing the "right" thing, and we often wonder what that right thing is. At that time, we turn to others for advice, and religion is one place where we turn.

Religion cannot prove the answers that it gives, but that doesn't make the answers less important.
Nonsense.

Bingo. If someone were to ask, "Is it wrong to steal?" a scientist might be able to tell us what the effects of stealing are upon a society and use that as a reason; a philosopher might provide a reason based upon the social contract, or Kant's imperative...religion, however, cannot provide us with a reason. Religion can only tell us, "Do not steal," and then expect us to blindly follow.

To say that somehow religion can tell us anything about morality that science or philosophy cannot is nonsense. Religion merely tells us what we may and may not do, and asks us to accept these things on blind faith.

Good point. When religious people try to answer the question, "How old is the Earth," they are invading scientific turf.

I sometimes do, however, see a conflict the other way. I might ask the question, "Why are we here?" A scientist might mistakenly give an explanation of how we got here, but that misses the point. Worse yet, they might emphatically insist that there is no "reason", and that their claim is a scientific one. If they've done that, they've missed the point.

On the contrary, they haven't missed the point, you have.

Implicit in the question, "Why are we here?" is an assumption: That there is some inbuilt purpose behind our existence. If one simply wants the reason we exist then an answer explaining our current knowledge of the big bang, star formation, planetary and solar system formation, and evolution would be a perfectly reasonable answer (one might suggest that it is overkill, and that evolution is all that need be explained).

If you want to know what the purpose of our existence is, you are making an unwarranted and unjustified assumption: That there is an inbuilt purpose. That the universe somehow cares about us - an tiny intelligent species, on a single planet, orbiting a single sun on an outer spiral arm of the Milky Way...a speck of dust on a speck on a speck on a...you get my drift - when there is no evidence at all that would suggest the universe gives two quarks one way or another whether we exist or not.

There is no 'invasion' by science onto the turf of religion, because religion doesn't have exclusive rights to any part of human existence. It's still up in the air whether religion has a right to explain any aspect of human existence at all.
 
:clap:

The 'magisterium of religion' is a misconceived, stillborn, and hollow concept - its intention as well as its use deserves contempt.

I yield no 'turf' to religion. Religion is a bane of humanity.
 

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