A Rational Definition of Morality

You've been away for a little while, RandFan, so...

RandFan, meet Radrook.
Radrook, RandFan.

This ought to be entertaining. I expect Radrook to fare about as well as he did with the other sane folk on these boards. RandFan I refer you to
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106377

Radrook: I suppose you still haven't gotten it through your head that murder is not love, right? Still think death is "suspended animation?"
 
Ethically, our moral obligations or duties stem from our common human condtition

1. Mortality
2. Ability to suffer both psycological and physical pain
3. Our ability to reason
4. Our need for social cooperation in order to enhance survival.

Woha. Where does all this come from? I thought the original question was "A rational definition of morality". This is just a shopping list of what you think is important.

Let's break this down. "Morality" consists of rules of thumb used to distinguish between 'good' and 'bad' behavior. These rules are arrived at by a process of social evolution in which a society discovers empirically which rules work and which ones don't; "though shalt not steal" is a good example. Over a process of time some of these rules are often encoded into religious texts and they become God's word.

So that's how morality arises and how we can start to get an empirical handle on it.

Rationally, we can also start to formulate a 'theory of morality', and try to understand the mechanisms involved. Do moral rules follow patterns? Do the most successfull sets of rules conform to some general principles? Taking a top-down approach, we can start to develop the field of ethics. Ethics is the process by which moral rules are arrived at by the application of reason and values. Ethics sits at a higher level of sophistication than morality because it attempts to explain why certain moral rules are 'good' or 'bad'. Where a moral rule is pretty simple ("Thou shalt not kill"), ethics can be used to resolve all the 'moral dilemmas' that arise when this a moral rule is naively applied ("... but it's ok to kill if somone is trying to kill you").

But to apply ethics, you have to have a criterion by which you can compare outcomes; a previous poster mentioned the train track dilemma, in which you have to decide whether to switch a train to one track, which would result in the death of all the children in a schoolbus stuck on the tracks; or to another track, which would result in the death of all the passengers in the train because there is say a broken bridge. Which is the better outcome? To decide this, you need to appeal to values ("I value children more than I value adults", or "I value the integrity of the family group maintained by the adult"). Some values might have truly nasty outcomes ("I value the purity of the racial group"). So how do we rationally decide which are 'good' values and which are 'bad' values?

One way is to appeal to principles, which is not so arbitrary as it sounds and it works pretty well in physics; for example Occam's principle, or the principle of least action, or the principle of equivalence. Basically you select principles that are in some way distinguish themselves, but also (obviously) have the virtue of producing moral rules that have empirically been demonstrated to be of great value. So for example, the ethical principal of equivalence (everybody is treated the same way) is rather special because it is the only such principle that does not contain some additional and arbitrary way of partitioning the victims. Having selected a principle, you can ask if a particular value leads to a violation of that principle. Obviously, "I value the purity of the racial group" does, because it would lead to laws that treat people differently depending on their race.

Bang the whole caboodle together and you can start to perform systematic experiments. For example, the classic contest run by Anatol Rapoport based around the prisoner's dilemma payoff matrix ("goodness function"), which treated all the contestants the same ("principle of equivalence") but allowed each contestant to choose its own behavior ("moral behavior"). The non-obvious outcome was that the tit-for-tat behavior was most robust in all environments. Expressed in human terms, it's "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine, but if you kick me in the shin I'll kick you back in the 'nads." Sound familiar?

So that's the long answer.

The short answer is yes, there is a rational basis for morality, and those who have trouble grasping this are probably victims of what a logician might describe as a 'catagory error'; the belief that 'morality' contains some super-special ingredient or property that it does not. For example, you believe that human intelligence is somehow unique, and if someone were to ever show you a computer that is abundantly intelligent you will end up objecting: "Yea, ok, that's a really good simulation of intelligence, but it's still not really intelligent." Ditto morality, if you think it is somehow derived from God.
 
You've been away for a little while, RandFan, so...

RandFan, meet Radrook.
Radrook, RandFan.

This ought to be entertaining. I expect Radrook to fare about as well as he did with the other sane folk on these boards. RandFan I refer you to
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106377

Radrook: I suppose you still haven't gotten it through your head that murder is not love, right? Still think death is "suspended animation?"
Thanks. I have no intention of engaging this guy much.

Thanks for the link BTW.
 
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And you know for a certainty they suffered?
? I wouldn't know for a certainty that if you held a babies head under the water that it would suffer but I think it likely that it would.

...no one has a right to be living-including you.
Which gives the religious all the right they need to kill others.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Because the subject is not about religion or God.
You are the one that said we get our humanity from god. That is nonsense since the notion of god is a mass murderer. Murder that Christians hapily defend BTW.

If you are going to make such demonstrably false statements then expect them to be shown wrong.
 
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Our morality stems from our humanity and our humanity stems from God.

Perhaps.

But by putting that extra level of indirection in the forumla, you are also implying that if it could be shown that our humanity may stem from something other than god, our morality may be completely unrelated to god.

Is that a concession you are willing to make?
 
? I wouldn't know for a certainty that if you held a babies head under the water that it would suffer but I think it likely that it would.

With all that power I'm sure he snapped his fingers and immediate anesthesia. After all, you are the one who says he can snap fingers and do-right?

Which gives the religious all the right they need to kill others.

What gave Stalin and Mao Ze Dung their rights? You are card-stacking due to your tunnel vision and need to vent. Which of course you have a right to do. But not on my personal computer screen. IMHO


You are the one that said we get our humanity from God. That is nonsense since the notion of God is a mass murderer. Murder that Christians happily defend BTW.

If you are going to make such demonstrably false statements then expect them to be shown wrong.

I was asked a direct question. Didn't like my reply? Then I guess you will have to drivel against somebody else since I have zero tolerance for aimless off-topic rantings.

Bye!
 
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You've been away for a little while, RandFan, so...

Birds of feather-obviously!

RandFan, meet Radrook.
Radrook, RandFan.

Ummm, OK.

This ought to be entertaining.

Errrm, that presupposes a continuation which belies your claim to familiarity with my modus operandi.

I expect Radrook to fare about as well as he did with the other sane folk on these boards. RandFan I refer you to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106377

Thanx sport! That way people can see just how biased your opinion is.

Radrook: I suppose you still haven't gotten it through your head that murder is not love, right? Still think death is "suspended animation?"

Both lies!

1. I never said murder is love.
2. I never said death is suspended animation.

I said that permission of lawlessness to the detriment of others isn't love.
I said that there are those who will be resurrected from the dead. Not all, some.


BTW

I reviewed you link and see absolutely no evidence to your claim that I came out the loser.
So in my opinion you are joining in with your driveling friend over there in order to vent.

But before I send you to the wild blue, let me just say that I am more than certain that you are probably one of those people who gladly lend support all the hideous crimes committed by your government and most likely either participated in them or else would more than gladly do so in the sacred name of your God of patriotism.

This of course destroys credibility when horror is expressed when God is involved. After all, how much credibility can there be for people who applaud their country right or wrong regardless of crimes such as those committed in relation to Dresden and Hiroshima where thousands of civilians, many of whom were children were incinerated, or horribly scarred for life and who refer to this as merely necessary collateral damage.


BTW
It's the same balogna typical of other arguments be they scientific or otherwise. Refusal to be consistent in order to condemn. Which is illogical, totally unconvincing, and unworthy of true skepticism and a complete waste of time and computer space.

But hey! Party on!

However, not on my computer screen which I like to keep relatively free of unnecessary clutter. Sorry!

Proverbs 26:17
He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own Is like one who takes a dog by the ears.
 
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With all that power I'm sure he snapped his fingers and immediate anesthesia. After all, you are the one who says he can snap fingers and do-right?
Then what was the point of drowning them in the first place? What about the fear that young children experienced before the anesthesia? Why does the account not tell us about this? That still makes god a mass murderer that you hapily justify.

What gave Stalin and Mao Ze Dung their rights? You are card-stacking due to your tunnel vision and need to vent. Which of course you have a right to do. But not on my personal computer screen. IMHO
Vent? I'm telling the truth. God kills children according to Judeo-
Christian beliefs and you happily justify it.

I was asked a direct question. Didn't like my reply? Then I guess you will have to drivel against somebody else since I have zero tolerance for aimless off-topic rantings.
You stated a silly proposition. I pointed out why it was silly. Lifes tough. If you don't like it then don't post silly propositions.

Bye
 
Proverbs 26:17
He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own Is like one who takes a dog by the ears.

Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

More humanity from god.
 
Just to clarify, the question really isn't about a rational definition of morality, is it? It's about whether there is a rational system that can lead you to deciding what behavior or decision is moral, right?

I think we have an innate capacity for morality that evolved very much the way a lot of other stuff did to benefit us in relatively complex social structure--face recognition, ability to infer intention, language, etc.

I think there probably are rational systems that can lead to correct moral decisions, but I'm somewhat leery of them. It seems that they're simply exercises and nothing more. At some level you always test the system by seeing if the answers are acceptable to a moral person--meaning you already know the answer you want (or could accept), so you're not really relying on the system.

I like Alonzo Frye's desire utilitarianism, for example, but I say that primarily because I agree with his conclusions. I find his reasoning sound, but ultimately, if he said that the death penalty was good or that abortion should be banned, I'd probably reject his system because it doesn't line up with my notions of right and wrong.

Also, just as there are different languages, there are different customs (and legal traditions) of morality in the world, but in both realms, the conventions serve the same purpose and I believe they make use of the same sort of brain hardware in all people.
 
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Let me expand on my recent on-topic post about how human's derive morality from their human condition.


As is recognized by the USA Constitution, our human condition gives us certain inherent rights. In turn,those rights create duties. Let's take the human ability to reason before we making decisions for instance. Reasoning provides us with motive, and motive can either lead to benefit or harm. In short, knowing the truth is essential to survival. So knowing truth becomes a right creating the duty of truth-telling or honesty wehenever it is deserved. It's called, providing information to allow an informed decision.

For example, if we are about to submit to a medical treatment then we have a right to know the probabilities in relation to outcome.

That right places a duty upon those involved to provide the needed information so that such an informed decision can be made. In short, the human condition of reasoning created a moral duty. The same applies to all the other human conditions I listed before the thread was deviated for chortling purposes.
 
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Let me expand on my recent on-topic post about how human's derive morality from their human condition.


As is recognized by the USA Constitution, our human condition gives us certain inherent rights. In turn,those rights create duties. Let's take the human ability to reason before we making decisions for instance. Reasoning provides us with motive, and motive can either lead to benefit or harm. In short, knowing the truth is essential to survival. So knowing truth becomes a right creating the duty of truth-telling or honesty wehenever it is deserved. It's called, providing information to allow an informed decision.

For example, if we are about to submit to a medical treatment then we have a right to know the probabilities in relation to outcome.

That right places a duty upon those involved to provide the needed information so that such an informed decision can be made. In short, the human condition of reasoning created a moral duty. The same applies to all the other human conditions I listed before the thread was deviated for chortling purposes.
There is no clear argument here.
 
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If indeed humans can never agree on morality because of divergent socialization then there could never exist international law. The very existence of international law as outlined in the United Nations is testimony to the contrary. In fact, the United Nations clearly outlines what are and what are not considered to be human rights. Any nation which violates these rights is punished via sanctions be they economic or military. Not once has anyone objected to the list of human rights as outlined by the United Nations-in fact, it was reached via a consensus. So if there are cultural differences, they are not so severe as to obliterate a nucleus of values upon which we all agree.

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/rights/
 
If indeed humans can never agree on morality because of divergent socialization then there could never exist international law.
Non sequitur. International law is based in largge part on negotiation and compromise.

The very existence of international law as outlined in the United Nations is testimony to the contrary.
No its not. Many people throughout the world don't agree with international law.

In fact, the United Nations clearly outlines what are and what are not considered to be human rights.
Which are disagreed with by many nations and people.

Any nation which violates these rights is punished via sanctions be they economic or military. Not once has anyone objected to the list of human rights as outlined by the United Nations-in fact, it was reached via a consensus. So if there are cultural differences, they are not so severe as to obliterate a nucleus of values upon which we all agree.
Who is arguing that cultural differences are so severe as to obliterate anything?
 
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I think morality is being able to extend your kindness and reduce the suffering of others outside your group in the same way you want yourself and your loved ones treated. A more moral person to me, can extend their empathy and sympathies across gender, religion, race, politics, country, and even species. Heck, I feel "bad" for the robodog when they kick it



Something in brain makes me about things it perceives as sentient. I feel the pain and joy of my fellow creatures, so I am encouraged to promote the latter with the hope that it will come back.

I think we try to create societies and families and groups where no matter where we or are loved ones might fall (poor, ill, slow, unattractive... we (they) still have a chance at a decent life.) When we up we lift up those who are down with an understanding that this is social reciprocity, and we may be in need of it ourselves some day. We give to our kids, so that they will give to their kids--not to us. Pay it forward, so to speak.
 
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One's circle of empathy usually extends atleast to family members. My personal circle of empathy extends to all sentient lifeforms, tho I tend to favor my own species above the rest and my family and close friends still more.


Killing yourself to save every sparrow that falls isn't exactly moral; its misguided and suicidal. On the other hand, its a bit unethical to be so indifferent to the suffering of others that you would ignore the plight of those you can reasonably help. If one takes that a step further and has such little regard for their live that they would callously exploit them then they are very immoral.


You're missing the point. Without some system of morality there would be no social groups at all and we as a species could not survive. The fact that their morality was piss-poor doesn't mean that morality is bad.


Empathy [and by extension morality] is the biological mechanism that keeps our antisocial impulses in check. Being as how we are inherently social organisms we could not survive as a species without it.
(Above quotes trimmed for space - read original post for context)

Could social groups exist without morality? I believe yes. A logical set of standards of things that are bad enough for the community that it is worth the loss of freedom to make them illegal, a force or body that enforces those standards, and set consequences, and bingo, you have a society. People hold together because they empathize with eachother, this is true. They have things that they would and wouldn't do to eachother. But is this morality? I guess, in a personal and limited sense. But does it establish rules of right and wrong? Or just rules of right and wrong for a given situation?
Woha. Where does all this come from? I thought the original question was "A rational definition of morality". This is just a shopping list of what you think is important.

Let's break this down. "Morality" consists of rules of thumb used to distinguish between 'good' and 'bad' behavior. These rules are arrived at by a process of social evolution in which a society discovers empirically which rules work and which ones don't; "though shalt not steal" is a good example. Over a process of time some of these rules are often encoded into religious texts and they become God's word.

So that's how morality arises and how we can start to get an empirical handle on it.

Rationally, we can also start to formulate a 'theory of morality', and try to understand the mechanisms involved. Do moral rules follow patterns? Do the most successfull sets of rules conform to some general principles? Taking a top-down approach, we can start to develop the field of ethics. Ethics is the process by which moral rules are arrived at by the application of reason and values. Ethics sits at a higher level of sophistication than morality because it attempts to explain why certain moral rules are 'good' or 'bad'. Where a moral rule is pretty simple ("Thou shalt not kill"), ethics can be used to resolve all the 'moral dilemmas' that arise when this a moral rule is naively applied ("... but it's ok to kill if somone is trying to kill you").

But to apply ethics, you have to have a criterion by which you can compare outcomes; a previous poster mentioned the train track dilemma, in which you have to decide whether to switch a train to one track, which would result in the death of all the children in a schoolbus stuck on the tracks; or to another track, which would result in the death of all the passengers in the train because there is say a broken bridge. Which is the better outcome? To decide this, you need to appeal to values ("I value children more than I value adults", or "I value the integrity of the family group maintained by the adult"). Some values might have truly nasty outcomes ("I value the purity of the racial group"). So how do we rationally decide which are 'good' values and which are 'bad' values?

One way is to appeal to principles, which is not so arbitrary as it sounds and it works pretty well in physics; for example Occam's principle, or the principle of least action, or the principle of equivalence. Basically you select principles that are in some way distinguish themselves, but also (obviously) have the virtue of producing moral rules that have empirically been demonstrated to be of great value. So for example, the ethical principal of equivalence (everybody is treated the same way) is rather special because it is the only such principle that does not contain some additional and arbitrary way of partitioning the victims. Having selected a principle, you can ask if a particular value leads to a violation of that principle. Obviously, "I value the purity of the racial group" does, because it would lead to laws that treat people differently depending on their race.

Bang the whole caboodle together and you can start to perform systematic experiments. For example, the classic contest run by Anatol Rapoport based around the prisoner's dilemma payoff matrix ("goodness function"), which treated all the contestants the same ("principle of equivalence") but allowed each contestant to choose its own behavior ("moral behavior"). The non-obvious outcome was that the tit-for-tat behavior was most robust in all environments. Expressed in human terms, it's "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine, but if you kick me in the shin I'll kick you back in the 'nads." Sound familiar?

So that's the long answer.

The short answer is yes, there is a rational basis for morality, and those who have trouble grasping this are probably victims of what a logician might describe as a 'catagory error'; the belief that 'morality' contains some super-special ingredient or property that it does not. For example, you believe that human intelligence is somehow unique, and if someone were to ever show you a computer that is abundantly intelligent you will end up objecting: "Yea, ok, that's a really good simulation of intelligence, but it's still not really intelligent." Ditto morality, if you think it is somehow derived from God.

Okay, so morality is the enactment of a set of principles. The problem is the tit-for-tat behavior you mentioned in the next paragraph. "Everyone should be treated equally" runs right into tit-for-tat. Lets go back to the train tracks. You have two men, you can save one. One of them screwed you over at one point, did you a bad turn that may or may not have lost you a promotion, and you really hate him. The other one you know, and he seems like an alright guy, but you're not best friends or anything. You know rationally he'd probably do the same as the other guy to get ahead, but he hasn't, yet. Now logically, these people are probably equivalent, but the guy who screwed you over probably isn't getting rescued from the train that day.

The propositions fail badly because of tit-for-tat behavior. Just look at Israel/Palestine. Both sides are busy engaging in tit-for-tat behavior to the point where they are so far beyond anything that could remotely be called a moral system its insane. You have suicide bombers blow up in a market, we fire missiles at your houses (which may or may not have combatants in them), you fire rockets at us, which may or may not hit combatants, we bulldoze your neighborhoods, etc. etc.

At some point morality got completely lost, but tit-for-tat still remains, in great operation.
I think morality is being able to extend your kindness and reduce the suffering of others outside your group in the same way you want yourself and your loved ones treated. A more moral person to me, can extend their empathy and sympathies across gender, religion, race, politics, country, and even species. Heck, I feel "bad" for the robodog when they kick it

Something in brain makes me about things it perceives as sentient. I feel the pain and joy of my fellow creatures, so I am encouraged to promote the latter with the hope that it will come back.

I think we try to create societies and families and groups where no matter where we or are loved ones might fall (poor, ill, slow, unattractive... we (they) still have a chance at a decent life.) When we up we lift up those who are down with an understanding that this is social reciprocity, and we may be in need of it ourselves some day. We give to our kids, so that they will give to their kids--not to us. Pay it forward, so to speak.

Maximizing present and future happiness of everything works, although taken to extremes it could have bad results. Still, as a general principle it seems like a good starting point.
 
The agreed-upon official definitions on what constitutes acceptable civilized behavior both on a personal and international level are not arbitrary.

Actually, the European Enlightenment, which emerged as a reaction to the unrestricted wielding of despotic political powers, was what led ultimately to the recognition of basic human rights. One byproduct was the formulation of the USA Constitution which is universally admired and imitated.

The right of despotic kings, or any other form of government for that matter, to do as pleased with subject people regardless of suffering inflicted, would no longer be accepted as natural.

The post W.W.II Nuremberg trials, where Hitler's cronies were brought to justice based on their violation of the internationally accepted criteria is an example.


The European Enlightenment (Page 4)
Human Rights and Civil Rights / Humanism / Liberal Religion / Liberalism ... It forms the basis of freedom and human rights, for example its views on torture. ...
http://b.casalemedia.com/V2/67072/117553/index.html?members.tripod.com/doggo/doggenlipg4.html
 
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The agreed-upon official definitions on what constitutes acceptable civilized behavior both on a personal and international level are not arbitrary.
Assuming this is true, so what?

Actually, the European Enlightenment, which emerged as a reaction to the unrestricted wielding of despotic political powers, was what led ultimately to the recognition of basic human rights. One byproduct was the formulation of the USA Constitution which is universally admired and imitated.

Despotic kings, or any other form of government for that matter, to do as pleased with subject people regardless of suffering inflicted, would no longer be accepted as natural.

The post W.W.II Nuremberg trials, where Hitler's cronies were brought to justice based on their violation of the internationally accepted criteria is an example.

The European Enlightenment (Page 4)
Human Rights and Civil Rights / Humanism / Liberal Religion / Liberalism ... It forms the basis of freedom and human rights, for example its views on torture. ...
http://b.casalemedia.com/V2/67072/117553/index.html?members.tripod.com/doggo/doggenlipg4.html
You are not really telling us anything or advancing the discussion. So what if there are agreed upon codes of conduct and some people have broken those codes and have been punished? What does that prove? Only that there are current codes of conduct. Those codes of conduct are recent. Codes of conduct have not been the same throughout history so why assume that these are correct and the others not?

You just are not saying much.
 
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Let me expand on my recent on-topic post about how human's derive morality from their human condition.


As is recognized by the USA Constitution, our human condition gives us certain inherent rights.

If it gave them to us, they weren't inherent.

Define "inherent."
 
Right! "Rights" means that the state tells you what you can and cannot do.
 

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