A Rational Definition of Morality

Well consider the system proposed by Isaac Asimov in Foundation - a system where a 'higher intelligence' has created a set of rules to live by. The higher intelligence intends only good in the long run for those following the Foundation, so it becomes moral to follow the dictates of the higher intelligence, and immoral to oppose them. Foundation is really entirely about religion and the nature of higher intelligence.

I agree with you there. Asimov's Foundation is a good hypothetical example of a non-theistic religion.

Morality is extended personal ethics? An interesting idea, but not necessarily one I'd endorse. For instance, I wouldn't particularly like to be cheated, I don't cheat others, but where do you draw the line? Most of us would be willing to take a person's money for something they don't really need if they wanted to give the money to you. How far of a stretch is it from taking someone's money for a product or service they may or may not need because they insist on buying it to televangalism? And how far from there to the shell game on the street?

The extension of personal ethics to other people ["do unto others as you would have them do unto you"] is just a good starting rule of thumb. The more basic premises are:

(a)"I am alive; My life has inherent value."

(b)"Other people are alive; their lives must also have inherent value.

(c)"It is preferable to act in consideration of this value to increase collective benefit".

From there one can come up with many differing systems for determining [to varying degrees of success] what maximizes benefit for the self and other equivalent "selves". It is within this realm of equivalents [i.e. empathy] that a social group is formed. Outside of the realm of sentient entities morality has no meaning; there is no morality without subjective experience. While the basis of what is considered "benefit" is a varying subjective experience said subjective experience still has an objective reality to it. Therefore, one can logically and objectively determine how successful a method/system is at maximizing it.

Being as how conditions vary and change overtime these systems and methodologies are peripheral and tentative. For instance, a "thou shalt not" of ages past may not provide the same [or any] benefit today as it once did in its original context. Like science and technology, moral and ethical systems must evolve over time, but the philosophical goal at the core of it should remain relatively constant.


I don't believe in any morality. I don't think there's a morality gene, or hardwired instincts that certain things are immoral. There's probably various genes and traits we have hardwired that enhance survival, but morality can't simply be about propagation of your personal genetic code. If it was hardwired into me, wouldn't I lack a choice about believing it?

I disagree with the statement that you don't believe in morality. Clearly your social actions aren't made in an ethical vacuum and I assume that you aren't a sociopath. Judging from your statements so far I think that you merely do not believe in a transcendent/metaphysical basis for morality. I would argue that morality does not need one to be valid and that it has very real practical benefit regardless. I would also argue that given the afore mentioned practical value, and the universality of morality within complex social organisms [with the rule proving exception of sociopaths] morality must also have some biological basis.
 
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The extension of personal ethics to other people ["do unto others as you would have them do unto you"] is just a good starting rule of thumb. The more basic premises are:

(a)"I am alive; My life has inherent value."

(b)"Other people are alive; their lives must also have inherent value.
Why, though does my life have inherent value? Lets assume I spend 60 years in a box, seeing no one, and talking to no one, and then died. Would my life have one iota more value than if I died the day I entered the box?

Furthermore, if my life has inherent value, then does a serial killer's life have inherent value? The life of the person about to stab me while I'm pointing a gun at his face?

We can arrive at a value of life without making an unsupported statement. The value of life is due to the possible further actions you may take during your life. It is the possibility of further actions and positive impacts that makes life worth preserving. We may keep the serial killer alive to help profilers study him, in order to develop ways to catch more serial killers, but once the further value of keeping him alive is less than the negative value of him potentially killing and wounding people if he ever gets out and the value of the resources keeping him alive, killing him is the best option.

It's a rational definition of the value of life, but it doesn't appear very moral to me. In fact, because people have different definitions of future value, they'd likely arrive at different conclusions.

(c)"It is preferable to act in consideration of this value to increase collective benefit".
Now we come up with a further definition of collective. When does it end? My family? My neighborhood? My state? The Human Race? Beyond even that? Moreover, how do we define value increase and measure which ones are more important?
From there one can come up with many differing systems for determining [to varying degrees of success] what maximizes benefit for the self and other equivalent "selves". It is within this realm of equivalents [i.e. empathy] that a social group is formed. Outside of the realm of sentient entities morality has no meaning; there is no morality without subjective experience. While the basis of what is considered "benefit" is a varying subjective experience said subjective experience still has an objective reality to it. Therefore, one can logically and objectively determine how successful a method/system is at maximizing it.
"The good of the many outweighs the good of the one?" Maximizing the good of the social group? This one seems disturbing. I mean by this one, Osama bin Laden can place a moral value on human life, acknowledge and respect it, and still kill thousands of people - we're not in his social group. Similarly the dead Iraqis are merely dead - they were never going to impact our social group, they're just so much chaff. This may be a very practical, and well-practiced morality, with a wealth of history behind it, but I'm not going to label it particularly moral.
Being as how conditions vary and change overtime these systems and methodologies are peripheral and tentative. For instance, a "thou shalt not" of ages past may not provide the same [or any] benefit today as it once did in its original context. Like science and technology, moral and ethical systems must evolve over time, but the philosophical goal at the core of it should remain relatively constant.
But what philosophical goal is at the core of it? Good of the social group? Slavery ROCKED for the social group of slaveowners - they got to sit around and do essentially nothing and get rich. Good of society? We exterminated the Indians for the good of our society. We got tons of land, much of which was already primed for farmland, places to live, good food, lots of space to expand. Good of the human race? Can we really take such an abstract goal and make it concrete?

I disagree with the statement that you don't believe in morality. Clearly your social actions aren't made in an ethical vacuum and I assume that you aren't a sociopath. Judging from your statements so far I think that you merely do not see transcendent/metaphysical basis for morality.
I have some aesthetic desire for my personal actions to not be disagreeable. I also find other people interesting, and do sincerely wish the best for them. But I don't really feel this as a moral code. I look at other situations, and am unable to feel very judgmental about them. Personal situations, I can judge, but things I am not involved in personally, no, I don't feel any real judgment over them. Its sad to say, but I honestly don't care how many people are dying in Iraq. I wish that it would stop, because logically it does seem a horrible waste of life, but I can't feel anything about it.
I would argue that morality does not need one to be valid and that it has very real practical benefit regardless. I would also argue that given the above practical value, and the universality of morality within complex social organisms [with the rule proving exception of sociopaths] morality must also have some biological basis.
But why? Surely rape is immoral, but raping women also helps spread the genome. And, sure enough, as soon as you have people leave their society in war, where there's no societal consequences, they start raping and pillaging. This was pretty much a tradition up until the modern age, when fast communication and photos made the societal consequences real, and Abu Gharib suggests that if we take those away, we end up right back where we started. Will your average man rape a woman? Not if he's constrained by his intellect. Take that away, get the survival instincts flowing and the blood pumping, remove any social effects (in fact institute a form of peer pressure) and most people think what the hell. In studies, most people happily 'killed' someone under researcher's orders. Where was this genetic morality then?
 
Humans are social creatures. Our sense of morality is the product of our evolutionary heritage of living among other humans: relying on some, competing against others, etc.
As our needs changed, our morality has transformed.

Claiming morality came from a God, or gods, might have been useful in the past, when options of survival strategies were limited. And, controlling the masses was an issue.

Today, we can afford to live in a world where everyone has freedoms, (as long as they do not infringe on the freedoms of others), without guilt or shame or blame (again, as long as no one else's rights are infringed upon).

It's just too bad most people don't realize this. The sooner we can have everyone give up dogmatic reasons for morality, the sooner we can have some peace on this planet!
 
Lets assume I spend 60 years in a box, seeing no one, and talking to no one, and then died. Would my life have one iota more value than if I died the day I entered the box?
Your hypothetical does not provide enough information (and it is not real life). In the first scenario would you try to survive or would you take your life?

If you did not want to live then your life would have no inherent value. Inherent value comes from that part of most of us that wants to survive and wants to experience life.

Most of us are not born in *boxes and are not destined to spend our lives in boxes so most of us have inherent value.

*Metaphor for situations that would obviate our desire to live.
 
I don't know of any definition that is objectively compelling in the way e.g. the categorical imperative is meant to be. Maybe the closest would be self interest, where "self" and "interest" are liberally defined to account for the shared drives dowered on us by evolution and the effects of external persuasion/negotiation.

Isn't any rational reason to take one action over another ultimately going to involve a claim about the likely effect of the outcome on the actor?
 
Think of it from a rational agent's perspective -- values represent what you like and don't like, and morality is simply the system of behaviors (or lack thereof) that get you there. It is literally that simple.

The textbook definition for 'morally right' is typically 'in accordance with one's accepted values.'

The fundamental problem in the world today (and throughout human history as well) is that people don't understand very well just how their actions will or will not lead to them getting what they want. Rand's Objectivism is pretty much the counterpoint to this 'failure of understanding morality' that most people suffer from.
 
I have some aesthetic desire for my personal actions to not be disagreeable. I also find other people interesting, and do sincerely wish the best for them. But I don't really feel this as a moral code. I look at other situations, and am unable to feel very judgmental about them. Personal situations, I can judge, but things I am not involved in personally, no, I don't feel any real judgment over them. Its sad to say, but I honestly don't care how many people are dying in Iraq. I wish that it would stop, because logically it does seem a horrible waste of life, but I can't feel anything about it.
The root of morality is a sense of right and wrong. If you sincerely wish the best for others then that is your sense of morality. You might not see it as a rigid code but that doesn't alter the fact that you have some sense of good and bad.

Humans are varied. Some have a stronger sense of empathy than others. Yours might be non-existent or significantly less than most of us. You might be a sociopath or closer to a sociopath than the rest of us.

You are a good example of why morality isn't and can't be absolute. Nor is it strictly relative either. Morality is a combination of individual and social understanding. You might be willing to kill your neighbor but society has deemed murder illegal (wrong) so society dictates, to a degree, what is moral (right). No matter what you think about rape, robbery or murder you know that society has deemed these and other things wrong and society has codified laws (moral conduct) that likely govern your behavior whether or not you believe in them.

You don't have to believe in it but if you want to avoid punishment you might want to consider adhering to what society says is right and wrong. Unless of course your conscience dictates otherwise but then you might still have to pay the penalty.
 
Why, though does my life have inherent value? Lets assume I spend 60 years in a box, seeing no one, and talking to no one, and then died. Would my life have one iota more value than if I died the day I entered the box?

The assumed value of one's life is the logical basis for the preservation and enhancement of it. When I say that its "inherent" I mean that its a default state that isn't granted by an outside source like the society or "God". If a person doesn't value their own life then they have problems that go beyond simple morality.

Furthermore, if my life has inherent value, then does a serial killer's life have inherent value?

Yes, and hes doing himself an injustice by killing other people. Hes violating himself by wantonly killing; his actions speak for the justification of his own death.

The life of the person about to stab me while I'm pointing a gun at his face?

Yes. Tho, one would have to question why the two of you have weapons pointed at each other and why you couldn't deal with what ever problems you had in a different way.

We can arrive at a value of life without making an unsupported statement. The value of life is due to the possible further actions you may take during your life. It is the possibility of further actions and positive impacts that makes life worth preserving. We may keep the serial killer alive to help profilers study him, in order to develop ways to catch more serial killers, but once the further value of keeping him alive is less than the negative value of him potentially killing and wounding people if he ever gets out and the value of the resources keeping him alive, killing him is the best option.

It's a rational definition of the value of life, but it doesn't appear very moral to me. In fact, because people have different definitions of future value, they'd likely arrive at different conclusions.

The sorting out of such dilemmas is the application of moral philosophy. My own personal view is that one should only kill as a very last resort to preserving one's own life and the lives of those closest to them. There nothing immoral, per se, about killing some one who is going to kill you. Its quite immoral to go around killing people for arbitrary reasons like personal gain or indulgence.

Now we come up with a further definition of collective. When does it end? My family? My neighborhood? My state? The Human Race? Beyond even that? Moreover, how do we define value increase and measure which ones are more important?

One's circle of empathy usually extends atleast to family members. My personal circle of empathy extends to all sentient lifeforms, tho I tend to favor my own species above the rest and my family and close friends still more.

"The good of the many outweighs the good of the one?" Maximizing the good of the social group? This one seems disturbing. I mean by this one, Osama bin Laden can place a moral value on human life, acknowledge and respect it, and still kill thousands of people - we're not in his social group.

Thats exactly what I was referring to. Osama's moral system is less beneficial than one that values all human life by default. He does have a moral system; its just a very poor one.

Similarly the dead Iraqis are merely dead - they were never going to impact our social group, they're just so much chaff. This may be a very practical, and well-practiced morality, with a wealth of history behind it, but I'm not going to label it particularly moral.

Killing yourself to save every sparrow that falls isn't exactly moral; its misguided and suicidal. On the other hand, its a bit unethical to be so indifferent to the suffering of others that you would ignore the plight of those you can reasonably help. If one takes that a step further and has such little regard for their live that they would callously exploit them then they are very immoral.

But what philosophical goal is at the core of it? Good of the social group? Slavery ROCKED for the social group of slaveowners - they got to sit around and do essentially nothing and get rich. Good of society? We exterminated the Indians for the good of our society. We got tons of land, much of which was already primed for farmland, places to live, good food, lots of space to expand. Good of the human race? Can we really take such an abstract goal and make it concrete?

You're missing the point. Without some system of morality there would be no social groups at all and we as a species could not survive. The fact that their morality was piss-poor doesn't mean that morality is bad.

I have some aesthetic desire for my personal actions to not be disagreeable. I also find other people interesting, and do sincerely wish the best for them. But I don't really feel this as a moral code. I look at other situations, and am unable to feel very judgmental about them. Personal situations, I can judge, but things I am not involved in personally, no, I don't feel any real judgment over them. Its sad to say, but I honestly don't care how many people are dying in Iraq. I wish that it would stop, because logically it does seem a horrible waste of life, but I can't feel anything about it.

Being moral doesn't necessarily mean that you're a bleeding heart self-loathing martyr. Your innate desire to prefer that other people do well is empathy; the foundational basis of morality.

But why? Surely rape is immoral, but raping women also helps spread the genome. And, sure enough, as soon as you have people leave their society in war, where there's no societal consequences, they start raping and pillaging. This was pretty much a tradition up until the modern age, when fast communication and photos made the societal consequences real, and Abu Gharib suggests that if we take those away, we end up right back where we started. Will your average man rape a woman? Not if he's constrained by his intellect. Take that away, get the survival instincts flowing and the blood pumping, remove any social effects (in fact institute a form of peer pressure) and most people think what the hell. In studies, most people happily 'killed' someone under researcher's orders. Where was this genetic morality then?

Empathy [and by extension morality] is the biological mechanism that keeps our antisocial impulses in check. Being as how we are inherently social organisms we could not survive as a species without it.
 
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The extension of personal ethics to other people ["do unto others as you would have them do unto you"] is just a good starting rule of thumb. The more basic premises are:

(a)"I am alive; My life has inherent value."

(b)"Other people are alive; their lives must also have inherent value.

(c)"It is preferable to act in consideration of this value to increase collective benefit".

This is a great post. Inherent value to who though? Isn't the idea that the inherent value of life is universal more like a working hypothesis?
 
Is it possible to arrive at a rational definition of morality that you can use to judge situations?
I'm not really sure what you're asking here. I can imagine all sorts of rational definitions for morality, but you or someone else may not agree with any of them.

Are you asking if there is an objective moral system waiting to be found somewhere? If so, I'd have to say no. In order for it to be objective, it would have to exist independent of humans. Theists embrace that idea, since they believe that moral systems are imposed upon us by a supreme being. Since I reject the notion of supreme beings, I believe that we create our own morals.

Morality is therefore relative to the context in which it is being defined and/or applied. What might be moral for an individual might be immoral in a larger social context, and might be viewed quite differently in a different social context. But I see no reason why there couldn't be rational moral positions in all three contexts.

I'm asking because I don't personally believe there is a rational basis for morality. I have a code of personal ethics, and I believe it is possible to determine actions that, as a society, will have a positive or negative impact upon the society, but I can't figure out a rational way to create moral judgments.

Personally I use "morality" to refer to a personal sense of what is right and wrong, and "ethical" to refer to a communal agreement as to which notions of right and wrong extend beyond the individual in a given social context. For example, I might feel it's morally wrong to kill animals for food, but the ethics of the community in which I live find that permissible. Both my personal morality and my community's ethical code agree that it is wrong to wantonly murder a fellow human being, however. Rational arguments are possible in each case, but there is no on universal rationale that applies in all cases.

I'd say that the closest you might be able to come to that would be to put everything into an evolutionary context: does it promote the survival, propogation, and florishing of my species, or at least not act to the detriment of any of these? If so, it's moral; if not, it isn't. But even that is a rational defense with which not everyone may agree.
 
While morality is heavily subjective I would say that some systems of morality have more objective value than others -- i.e they leave fewer dead/miserable people if followed.

I agree that some ideas about morality result in less carnage, but I'm not sure about the "objective value." What do you mean by "objective value?" Having fewer dead or miserable people is not necessarily a universal priority. Many people feel that capital punishment is morally acceptable, for example, and that results in dead people. Same with abortion (arguably--depending on how you define life) and war. Also the idea of Hell results in a lot of dead and miserable people, and quite a few people think that it's morally sound to punish "bad" people in Hell.
 
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I agree that some ideas about morality result in less carnage, but I'm not sure about the "objective value." What do you mean by "objective value?" Having fewer dead or miserable people is not necessarily a universal priority. Many people feel that capital punishment is morally acceptable, for example, and that results in dead people. Same with abortion (arguably--depending on how you define life) and war. Also the idea of Hell results in a lot of dead and miserable people, and quite a few people think that it's morally sound to punish "bad" people in Hell.

Which is why some systems of morality can be "better" than others. The goal of a moral system is supposedly for the benefit of those within it; the problem is many of them fall far short of this. For instance, the code of "eye for an eye" in theory is supposed to deter crime and violence; if one knows that they will probably be subject to the same abuses that they dish out they may think twice before doing it. Unfortunately, if followed strictly, in many situtations this moral doctrine simply leads to a never ending cycle of violence -- the moral system falls short of its intended goal.

This is a great post. Inherent value to who though? Isn't the idea that the inherent value of life is universal more like a working hypothesis?

Its more of a statement of equivalence. It assumes that because the individual values their own life then, logically, the lives of equivalent others must also have value. If the person does not value the lives of equivalent others then they have no logical basis to argue for their own value.
 
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Which is why some systems of morality can be "better" than others.

Better according to whom? Again, it's entirely subjective. Is it better to execute "bad" people via capital punishment, or let them live? "Better" is in the eye of the beholder.

Aku, earlier you said
I would say that some systems of morality have more objective value than others...

Do you mean "objective," or do you mean "better" in your eyes? Please explain which moral ideas/systems/whatever, if any, are "objective." It seems to me it's all subjective, we all just make up what we believe to be right and wrong, based on many factors--religion, the views of our peers and family members, when and where we live, etc.
 
Better according to whom? Again, it's entirely subjective. Is it better to execute "bad" people via capital punishment, or let them live? "Better" is in the eye of the beholder.
Yes, "better" is in the eye of the beholder. But here is the thing, why is it that as societies advance they tend to give more liberty and place more and more importance on individual happiness. Why do slavery and oppression become anachronistic in advanced societies?

IMO: When individuals have more and more freedom and are less and less encumbered by rigid dogmatic social strictures, they are more likely to see the value of liberty and social justice. It is reasonable that liberty and social justice provide the greatest hapiness to the most individuals and increase the opportunity for hapiness for each individual. Which is one reason why people are far more likely to leave oppresive societies and move to free societies rather than vice versa.

Humans clearly share a near universal sense of right and wrong. Morality clearly isn't simply relative nor is it simply absolute. Otherwise the prohibition of murder wouldn't be so wide spread. Of course, humans are also tribalistic so morality tends to be confined to what an individual sees as his tribe. As individuals become more and more educated and less and less dogmatic they are more likely to increase the size of their tribe. Which is why Western societies spawn human rights organizations more than non-Western societies.

I strongly recomend Shermers book. His arguments are very good.
 
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Randfan:

I'd like to read Shermer's book--it sounds good.

MO: When individuals have more and more freedom and are less and less encumbered by rigid dogmatic social strictures, they are more likely to see the value of liberty and social justice.
I don't think we'd all agree on "social justice." I'm thinking of gay marriage, capital punishment, abortion, war, Terry Schiavo, etc. ETA: Although with less dogma like religion, I guess we'd have less argument on some of this stuff.

Otherwise the prohibition of murder wouldn't be so wide spread.
Again, see: capital punishment, abortion, war, right to die, "meat is murder" etc. We can't all agree on acceptable killing vs. immoral killing.
 
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I don't think we'd all agree on "social justice." I'm thinking of gay marriage, capital punishment, abortion, war, Terry Schiavo, etc. ETA: Although with less dogma like religion, I guess we'd have less argument on some of this stuff.
You are correct, we don't all agree exactly even in Western Civilizations and we likely never will. Yes, religion plays a big role in stunting our progress but please note that the progress moves largely in one direction. Societies don't move from freedom to less freedom unless there is some strict dogmatic force (see Soviet Union). The more people are free of narrow minded group think the more they are likely to be socially liberal.

Again, see: capital punishment, abortion, war, right to die, "meat is murder" etc. We can't all agree on acceptable killing vs. immoral killing.
Well, there are a couple of issues here. We need to remember that there are many moral dilemmas. There is nothing that is going to completely resolves these. However, societies tend to move in the socially liberal direction so long as there is freedom of thought and expression. Social liberal argument tends to win out over other arguments in the long run so long as people are free to think for themselves. I've yet to see an exception to this. I strongly suspect that the day will come when we stop eating meat and I'm a huge meat lover and have no qualms about it whatsoever. I suspect that subsequent generations will be ever increasing in the concern about animal welfare.

I don't think that the differences between us are as significant as a.) the similarities and b.) the trend of liberal democratic societies. It moves in fits and starts but the trend is definitely towards more liberty and more social justice.
 
Yes, "better" is in the eye of the beholder. But here is the thing, why is it that as societies advance they tend to give more liberty and place more and more importance on individual happiness. Why do slavery and oppression become anachronistic in advanced societies?
I'd be careful, RandFan, in conflating the industrial age, and post industrial age, societies with the concept of an advanced society.

The Roman Empire was a very advanced society, a republic even at one state, that had within it the socioeconomic feature of slavery. Likewise, the various Chinese Kingdoms and Empires were quite advanced, compared to their barbarian neighbors, and also accomodated slavery as a practice. One of the arguments against the institution of road gangs, and chain gangs, in twentieth century America that I recall from my high school days was that it was equivalent to a form of slavery, in that the state was using forced labor at no recompense to build roads, or what have you. From that point of view, slavery was still a formal facet of American society in the twentieth century,

Back to more traditional forms of slavery. The industrial revolution provided an opening to trade in slavery for other means of production, assigning the role of "slave" to machines in some cases. (I may be reaching a bit there, but the car assembly line robot is somewhat like a slave, in terms of it being bought at great expense to do X work for no pay. The moral probleml of slavery is eliminated when the machine tool is used, rather than the human tool. Irony of ironies, management theory that I was exposed to frequently termed employees as assets. That terminilogy never settled with me, and still doesn't. It's too close to the plantation owner's capital investment of his human assets: slaves.)

I'll not digress into the idea of wage slavery at the moment, as its too much of a derail, but my take on the societal response to the industrial revolution is that wage slavery was one of the features of early industrial society that Marx found objectionable, and worthy of a reaction.

His solution, to say the least, hardly cured the symptom he was trying to treat.

DR
 
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I'll not digress into the idea of wage slavery at the moment, as its too much of a derail, but my take on the societal response to the industrial revolution is that wage slavery was one of the features of early industrial society that Marx found objectionable, and worthy of a reaction.

And regardless of your view on Marx and "wage slavery," that proves my point that we can't agree on social justice. Some folks thing that modern day capitalism is a great thing for people, while others not so much.
 
I'd be careful, RandFan, in conflating the industrial age, and post industrial age, societies with the concept of an advanced society.

The Roman Empire was a very advanced society, a republic even at one state, that had within it the socioeconomic feature of slavery. Likewise, the various Chinese Kingdoms and Empires were quite advanced, compared to their barbarian neighbors, and likewise accomodated slavery as a practice.

The industrial revolution provided an opening to trade in slavery for other means of production, assigning the role of slave to machines in some cases. (I may be reaching a bit there.)

I'll not digress into the idea of wage slavery at the moment, as its too much of a derail, but wage slavery was one of the features of early industrial society that Marx found objectionable, and worthy of a reaction.

His solution, to say the least, hardly cured the symptom he was trying to treat.

DR
Thanks.

Roman society was advanced for its time but clearly not as advanced as many societies are today. I don't see any likelihood of modern western society evolving to bring back slavery. Just because the Romans didn't get it in their time doesn't mean that we don't get it now. We've enlarged our tribe (thanks in part to Christianity). There was a time that it was thought that the tears of strangers were only water. No more.

The thing is, morality is a complex thing. Societies are complex and dynamic. What is best for society? It's not at all something that is easy to just sit down and determine without any history, without any trial and error.

Greece and Rome were very good pilot programs. The framers of the American constitution learned from the mistakes made by them. That was the idea of the "more perfect union". Sadly they couldn't get rid of slavery immediately.

We have the luxury of seeing the past and we understand the advantages of our current system over previous ones. Capturing slaves from a country makes that country a poor trading partner and increases hostilities. Power has a way of shifting and those who capture slaves can become slaves themselves someday.
  • Society is better in the long run without slavery.
  • If slavery is outlawed then the likely hood of any individual losing his or her freedom to slavery is greatly diminished.
There is no good argument today for slavery. It's an anachronistic concept that reasonable people the world over reject and for good reason.
 

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