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Something new under the sun

some' of the momentum must be disappated.

How much is some, what does this have to do with planerary motion. Some is disappated from the stars proto-mass, how much?

Sigh.

David, why do I have to keep posting the same material over and over to you? Can you not read it the first couple times? Is it a comprehension issue (on your part)? As I've noted before on many threads that you were on, the sun contains 99% of the mass in the solar system. Yet the sun currently contains less than 1% of the angular momentum in the solar system. If it was like your ballerina, it should spin 400 times faster than it currently does. The centrifugal force from that rotation would actually have kept the cloud of plasma from collapsing into a star. So this is no small problem.

And what's going on here might even shed some light on your question about what keeps plasmoids from becoming black holes ... if you'd let it. :D
 
What is funny how you take 'some' from a pop science article

David, did you use your browser AT ALL? No? Did you not link and read the peer-reviewed, scientific papers by Alfven on this subject? No? You call peer reviewed work by a Nobel prize winner published in well known scientific journals "pop science articles"? Did you not notice that numerous other scientific papers and books on astrophysics cite Alfven's work and talk about the role of EM in re-distributing the angular momentum of the solar system long ago? Do you enjoy making a fool of yourself, David?
 
You didn't answer the question. What gave the plasmas that became planets or stars (in the case of the galaxy) the velocity that let them orbit?

I see your problem.You STILL assume that planets and star formed from plasma.

WRONG!!

By the time stars started to form,there was no longer temperature hign enough to keep matter in state of plasma.There was gas(hydrogen and such),later (after death of first stars) was at least dust and from this things formed...(by collision cause by gravitation)

And how did *gravity* take care of the angular momentum distribution problem?

Unfortunately I do not understand you now.What do you have on mind?
May be it should be obvious to me,but I now have bit other problems to solve,so could you please tell me more?
 
That reminds of another insignificant question: What happens in plasma "cosmology" when 2 galactic clusters collide as with the Bullet Cluster?
I assume that part of the plasma turns dark, ceases to interact strongly with matter and splits apart from the rest of the plasma. Can you outline the mechanism?


If you had read the work, you would know.

Abstract:

The model of the plasma universe, inspired by totally unexpected phenomena observed with the advent and application of fully three-dimensional electromagnetic particle-in-cell simulations to filamentary plasmas, consists of studying the interaction between fieldaligned current-conducting, galactic-dimensioned plasma sheets or filaments (Birkeland currents). In a preceding paper, the evolution of the interaction spanned some 10 8-109 years, where simulational analogs of synchrotron-emitting double radio galaxies and quasars were discovered. This paper reports the evolution through the next 109-5 x 109 years. In particular, reconfiguration and compression of tenuous cosmic plasma due to the self-consistent magnetic fields from currents conducted through the filaments leads to the formation of elliptical, peculiar, and barred and normal spiral galaxies. The importance of the electromagnetic pinch in producing condense states and initiating gravitational collapse of dusty galactic plasma to stellisimals, then stars, is discussed. Simulation data are directly compared to galaxy morphology types, synchrotron flux, H1 distributions, and fine detail structure in rotational velocity curves. These comparisons suggest that knowledge obtained from laboratory, simulation, and magnetospheric plasmas offers not only to enhance our understanding of the universe, but also to provide feedback information to laboratory plasma experiments from the unprecedented source of plasma data provided by the plasma universe.

The gross radio properties of galaxies are reviewed in
Section II. Section III describes a transistion through the
following sequence of cosmic objects: double radio galaxy
to radioquasar; radioquasar to radioquiet quasi-stellar
objects (QSO's) [9]; radioquiet QSO's to peculiar and
Seyfert spiral galaxies; and peculiar and Seyfert galaxies
to normal and barred (or barrel) galaxies.[/i]
The various classifications of elliptical and spiral galaxies are
discussed in Sections IV and V, respectively. The importance of electromagnetic effects in describing both the bulk- and fine
detail structure in the velocity curves of spiral galaxies is also
reported in Section V. Multiple interacting galaxies are
studied in Section VI. The chemical composition and the
distribution of neutral hydrogen in galaxies is discussed
in Section VII. Section VIII covers the Alfven-Carlqvist
model for star formation in pinched plasma filaments
while Section IX reports the extension of three-dimensional
electromagnetic particle simulation techniques to
include gravitational forces with the formation of stars.


OK?

I think you'll find its all in there.

here it is again:
Evolution of the Plasma Universe: II. The Formation of Systems of Galaxies
 
Unfortunately I do not understand you now.What do you have on mind?
May be it should be obvious to me,but I now have bit other problems to solve,so could you please tell me more?

I don't know what he's on about, but it sounds like he doesn't understand the basic physics of orbital motion the rest of us learned in junior high school.

Any angular momentum in the initial clouds of gas that preceded star or planet formation will remain, because there is no mechanism to get rid of it. Going back a step, the primordial origin of it is easy to understand - basically any asymmetry in an overdense region will lead to rotation as the overdensity collapses under its own gravitational pull, and the initial overdensities are not generally symmetric (they originate in random fluctuations). So there is no mystery in the origin of the rotation, and once it's there no force is required to maintain it.

Indeed, the tendency for objects to remain in motion is something well known since the 1600s and a certain well-known physicist named Isaac. Apparently the news hasn't reached BAC yet, though.

It is possible for these clouds to lose energy by ejecting energetic particles. As is known to every astrophysics student that process is strongly affected by electromagnetic interactions. The end result is a flattened disk with high density, which can then result in star formation (producing a spiral galaxy) or planet formation (producing a solar system), depending on what we're talking about. (The reason DM halos are more spherical than pancake-like is because of DM's lack of non-gravitational interactions.)

In any case, once it's in place the origin of the galaxy's rotation is irrelevant. As we have seen the only significant force acting on the stars which make it up is gravitational, and the equations for a star's motion are simply Kepler's laws for orbits, and using those laws one can immediately see from the rotational velocities that there must be more mass in the galaxy than is visible.
 
Sigh.

David, why do I have to keep posting the same material over and over to you? Can you not read it the first couple times? Is it a comprehension issue (on your part)? As I've noted before on many threads that you were on, the sun contains 99% of the mass in the solar system. Yet the sun currently contains less than 1% of the angular momentum in the solar system. If it was like your ballerina, it should spin 400 times faster than it currently does. The centrifugal force from that rotation would actually have kept the cloud of plasma from collapsing into a star. So this is no small problem.

And what's going on here might even shed some light on your question about what keeps plasmoids from becoming black holes ... if you'd let it. :D

Sun is not solid,core could be spinning with near the speed of light and outer "shell" would be still spinning slower.

And Impulse principles applies to free mass points!(At least if I understood your comment correctly...)
 
I don't know what he's on about, but it sounds like he doesn't understand the basic physics of orbital motion the rest of us learned in junior high school.

Any angular momentum in the initial clouds of gas that preceded star or planet formation will remain, because there is no mechanism to get rid of it. Going back a step, the primordial origin of it is easy to understand - basically any asymmetry in an overdense region will lead to rotation as the overdensity collapses under its own gravitational pull, and the initial overdensities are not generally symmetric (they originate in random fluctuations). So there is no mystery in the origin of the rotation, and once it's there no force is required to maintain it.

Indeed, the tendency for objects to remain in motion is something well known since the 1600s and a certain well-known physicist named Isaac. Apparently the news hasn't reached BAC yet, though.

It is possible for these clouds to lose energy by ejecting energetic particles. As is known to every astrophysics student that process is strongly affected by electromagnetic interactions. The end result is a flattened disk with high density, which can then result in star formation (producing a spiral galaxy) or planet formation (producing a solar system), depending on what we're talking about. (The reason DM halos are more spherical than pancake-like is because of DM's lack of non-gravitational interactions.)

In any case, once it's in place the origin of the galaxy's rotation is irrelevant. As we have seen the only significant force acting on the stars which make it up is gravitational, and the equations for a star's motion are simply Kepler's laws for orbits, and using those laws one can immediately see from the rotational velocities that there must be more mass in the galaxy than is visible.

Thanks Sol.

Another bit of info in place.
(But most of this should be known to me since I had mechanic last term!!! :mad: on self...sigh)
 
Thanks Sol.

Another bit of info in place.
(But most of this should be known to me since I had mechanic last term!!! :mad: on self...sigh)

Well - most of what I said is not so basic, and I didn't mean to imply that. What I was referring to in that comment is the fact that no force other than gravity is required to make a planet orbit the sun, or a star orbit the center of the galaxy, or a satellite orbit the earth.

Motion in a centripetal potential is one of the very first physics problems most people study, and it's been understood since Newton and Kepler. I guess our self-professed "plasma cosmologists" are a little behind the times.
 
As I've noted before on many threads that you were on, the sun contains 99% of the mass in the solar system. Yet the sun currently contains less than 1% of the angular momentum in the solar system. If it was like your ballerina, it should spin 400 times faster than it currently does. The centrifugal force from that rotation would actually have kept the cloud of plasma from collapsing into a star. So this is no small problem.

And it's got a solution. And the solution in standard astrophysics is that the sun has a mechanism for losing angular momentum over time, namely by dragging the solar wind with its rotating magnetic field. Given that the sun is several billion years old, it's had quite a bit of time to slow down.

And what's going on here might even shed some light on your question about what keeps plasmoids from becoming black holes ... if you'd let it. :D

Nope. Any mechanism for expelling angular momentum will encourage collapse, not prevent it. You've got it exactly backwards, which is no surprise.
 
Bear with me for a moment as I slowly work my way through this.

The first post above says that plasma cosmology removes the need for dark matter to explain observation.

Does this include the anomalous orbit velocities observed in galaxies?


Yes. Essentially the arms of the galaxy are magnetically supported, Which explains why the outside of the galaxies seem to rotate faster than the theory of gravity allows.

There are other more recent publications that supports this idea that galaxy arms are magnetically supported that Peratts galaxy model uses - Are rotation curves in NGC 6946 and the Milky Way magnetically supported? - Astronomische Nachrichten, Vol.328, Issue 1, p.92-98, 01/2007

Following the model of magnetically supported rotation of spiral galaxies, the inner disk rotation is dominated by gravity but magnetism is not negligible at radii where the rotation curve becomes flat, and indeed becomes dominant at very large radii. Values of the order of 1 $\mu$G, or even less, produce a centripetal force when the absolute value of the slope of the curve [$B_\phi$, R] (azimuthal field strength versus radius) is less than $R^{-1}$. The $R^{-1}$-profile is called the critical profile. From this hypothesis, the following is to be expected: at large radii, a ``subcritical'' profile (slope flatter than $R^{-1}$); at still larger radii a $B_\phi$-profile becoming asymptotically critical as the density becomes asymptotically vanishing. Recent observations of magnetic fields in NGC 6946 and the Milky Way are in very good agreement with these predictions. This magnetic alternative requires neither galactic dark matter (DM) nor modification of fundamental laws of physics, but it is not in conflict with these hypotheses, especially with the existence of cosmological cold dark matter (CDM).


http://www.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de/div/konti/antalya/Session-I.pdf
Magnetic fields are assumed to be pervasive throughout the Universe on all scales, from the fields surrounding planets right up to fields in the intracluster and intergalactic media. In recent years the role of magnetic fields in both galactic and extra-galactic regimes has gained increased attention across many astrophysical disciplines. For example, the magnetic field is a key factor in studies of large-scale structure formation, galaxy and star formation, and cosmic ray generation. In particular, the Galactic magnetic field has been studied since the late seventies with a variety of techniques. While it is clear that magnetic field research has progressed considerably in this time, the mostly indirect measurement techniques have meant that it has been difficult to address many basic issues. Questions as to how strong the Galactic magnetic field is, how uniform it is, what the seeding and amplification mechanisms are, and, most importantly, what the contribution is to the energy density of the galactic medium remain topics of animated debate. One of the ways in which the Galactic magnetic field can be examined is through analysis of the rotation measures obtained for background extra-galactic sources. This gives information on the lineof- sight Galactic magnetic field and is complementary to results obtained from other techniques such as pulsar dispersion measures and mapping of the diffuse polarised emission of the Galaxy.

We present a statistical analysis of the RM sky as derived from a sample of extra-galactic RMs given in the literature and use these data to generate an interpolated map of the RM sky to give some insight into properties of the large-scale Galactic magnetic field.



The thing is that we really dont know what the exact configuration of the magnetic fields in the galaxies are, we dont even know the magnetic field and electric field distribution in the Milky Way very accurately yet (ref1)(ref2) and a magnetically supported plasma based model is a viable possibility that could turn out to be true.


”The Magnetized Interstellar Medium” - National Astronomical Observatories, Chinese Academy of Sciences Jia 20 Da-Tun Road, Beijing 100012, China, Date: 2005

6 Conclusions

We believe that it is still too early to claim that we know the exact morphology of the Galactic magnetic field. The observations of external galaxies, e.g. Beck (2000), Krause (this volume), review the state of knowledge and come to the conclusion that we have hardly any ideal one mode (bi- or axi-symmetric) magnetic field. The real magnetic fields in galaxies are very individual with possible superposition on many modes. Also irregularities are observed in almost every object, once the resolution is sufficient. Vertical fields are observed in some galaxies, especially near the nucleus.
 
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Well - most of what I said is not so basic, and I didn't mean to imply that. What I was referring to in that comment is the fact that no force other than gravity is required to make a planet orbit the sun, or a star orbit the center of the galaxy, or a satellite orbit the earth.

Motion in a centripetal potential is one of the very first physics problems most people study, and it's been understood since Newton and Kepler. I guess our self-professed "plasma cosmologists" are a little behind the times.

I was not reffering "basicness",but I am studying physic.(Bachelor at MFF UK-direct link to program! for those interested)
You did not imply anything,Sol.That was only my head banging on table.¨

OK,back to BAC.
So,BAC,any comment for this?As you see,we need only gravity. :D
 
Well - most of what I said is not so basic, and I didn't mean to imply that. What I was referring to in that comment is the fact that no force other than gravity is required to make a planet orbit the sun, or a star orbit the center of the galaxy, or a satellite orbit the earth.

Motion in a centripetal potential is one of the very first physics problems most people study, and it's been understood since Newton and Kepler. I guess our self-professed "plasma cosmologists" are a little behind the times.


Why is he still arguing against an idea he has obviously no understading of? he still seems to think that plasma cosmology is trying to refute gravity in some way :D I expect that he still thinks that plasma cosmology is all about electrically charged stars too :rolleyes:

Maybe if he had not put me on ignore after i posted just one post of some plasma caosmology material he would know this. Gravity is infact a vital variable for their model, but EM structures are shown to dominate, just like in the various huge filamentary structures we observe in space that are not explicable with gravitational equations.
 
So your argument is that Peratt's model can't be right because he ignores dark matter ... even though the purpose of his model was to show (and it did) that dark matter isn't needed to explain the very observation that folks like you use to *prove* that the dark matter exists. What were you saying about circular reasoning, RC? :D



It doesn't assume anything of the sort, RC. All it assumes it that most of the matter in the galaxy was unbound (not in stars) plasma at the time the rotation rate around the galaxy center of the gasses that would BECOME stars was determined. :D
BeAChooser, It looks like we both did not read Peratt's paper carefully enough.

I was thinking too much of the standard model of hydrogen gas cloud + gravity = galaxy. But Peratt's model is more complex - cosmic plasma filaments or sheets + Birkeland currents + tenuous cosmic plasma = galaxy. This still leaves the fatal flaw in his paper:
He chooses to ignore gravity without an explicit justification (a calculation, simulation or estimate of the relative forces).​
Of course today his 20 year old paper is totally wrong because we have found dark matter (gravitation lensing by dark matter) which destroys his results when included.
 
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So Belz, since David (to whom you were posting) obviously can't do it, why don't you try to explain to us where the velocity that became the rotation rate of planets and stars originally came from? Did those objects start to rotate about the sun (or galactic core) after they were formed or did the objects form after that rotation was already determined? And if it was the later, why wouldn't EM phenomena be important given that the material at that time would have been unbound plasma? And also explain to us how the angular momentum distribution problem was solved without EM phenomena ... with gravity alone? I'm all ears. :D

Say, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ? Why ask me, anyway ? Do I look like a physicist to you ? Why don't you ask the right people instead of confirming your bias by asking people who don't know the answer ?
 
Sol kept asking for predictions that had been made relevant to plasma cosmology, and by plasma cosmologists. So i figured i would list a couple.


Birkeland Currents:The currents were predicted in 1903 by Norwegian explorer and physicist Kristian Birkeland, who undertook expeditions into the Arctic Circle to study the aurora. The currents were predicted in 1903 by Norwegian explorer and physicist Kristian Birkeland, who undertook expeditions into the Arctic Circle to study the aurora.

Professor Emeritus of the Alfvén Laboratory in Sweden, Carl-Gunne Fälthammar wrote (1986): "A reason why Birkeland currents are particularly interesting is that, in the plasma forced to carry them, they cause a number of plasma physical processes to occur (waves, instabilities, fine structure formation). These in turn lead to consequences such as acceleration of charged particles, both positive and negative, and element separation (such as preferential ejection of oxygen ions). Both of these classes of phenomena should have a general astrophysical interest far beyond that of understanding the space environment of our own Earth."


Zmuda et al detected field align-currents in 1966. Even Alfvén subsequently credited (1986) that Dessler "discovered the currents that Birkeland had predicted" and should be called Birkeland-Dessler currents.

He also predicted auroral electrojets in 1908. He wrote: "[p.95 ..] the currents there are imagined as having come into existence mainly as a secondary effect of the electric corpuscles from the sun drawn in out of space, and thus far come under the second of the possibilities mentioned above. [p.105 ..] Fig. 50a represents those in which the current-directions at the storm-centre are directed westwards, and 50b those in which the currents move eastwards."

In 1913, Birkeland was the first to predict that plasma was ubiquitous in space. He wrote: "It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. We have assumed that each stellar system in evolutions throws off electric corpuscles into space. It does not seem unreasonable therefore to think that the greater part of the material masses in the universe is found, not in the solar systems or nebulae, but in "empty" space.”

In 1916, Birkeland was probably the first person to successfully predict that the solar wind behaves as do all charged particles in an electric field, "From a physical point of view it is most probable that solar rays are neither exclusively negative nor positive rays, but of both kinds"; in other words, the Solar Wind consists of both negative electrons and positive ions”

And Hannes Alfven, often considered the founder of plasma cosmology, made many successful predictions

In 1942 Alfven proposed that an electrically conducting fluid in a magnetic field can propagate “electromagnetic- hydrodynamic waves.” In the idealized case of infinite conductivity and a constant magnetic field Ho, the wave velocity should be proportional to Ho multiplied by the square root of permeability divided by density. He suggested that such waves may be important in solar physics, in particular in explaining sunspots.

The first laboratory demonstration of Alfven’s waves was published seven years later by Lundquist, who was able to generate them in mercury; he found that the wave velocity was approximately that given by Alfven’s formula. Further confirmation came within the next few years from experiments on ionized helium and liquid sodium. Of equal weight in convincing the scientific community to accept hydromagnetic waves was their use by Fermi in his theory of the origin of cosmic rays. According to Dessler, “An oversimplified statement of what had occurred . . . was that Fermi heard [Alfven’s] lecture at the University of Chicago, nodded his head and said, ‘Of course.’ The next day the entire world of physics said, ‘Oh, of course.”)

In 1954, in connection with his theory of the origin of the solar system, Alfven proposed that when a neutral gas cloud encounters a plasma at relative velocity, v, the cloud will start to become ionized when the relative kinetic energy is equal to the ionization energy,

(1/2)mv2 = eVion

Where Vion is the ionization potential of the atoms or molecules in the cloud. The velocity cannot exceed the critical value given by this equation until ionization is almost complete (ref),

The first laboratory tests were conducted by Alfven’s colleagues at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm. They found that the relative velocity could be increased to the critical velocity, but additional energy put into the system then went into ionizing the neutral gas rather than into increasing the relative velocity. The critical velocity is roughly independent of the pressure and magnetic field, as predicted by Alfven’s equation (ref) At about the same time, attempts to construct controlled thermonuclear devices encountered a “velocity limiting effect,” which appeared to be due at least in part to critical ionization.

Planetary scientists respected Alfvtn’s contributions to plasma physics and cosmic electrodynamics (for which he received the 1970 Nobel prize in physics); few of them felt qualified to criticize his ideas on magnetic braking, magnetohydynamic waves, field-aligned currents, and critical ionization velocity. But his next hypothesis involved only classical mechanics and generated a large literature, both pro and con. He proposed that inelastic collisions of solid particles moving in Kepler orbits will tend to focus them into “jet streams.”

Detailed calculations of the dynamics of systems of particles indicated that Alfven’s jet-stream effect-a sort of “negative diffusion”-could indeed occur, but only if the collisions were sufficiently inelastic (ref). Alfven’s interpretation of the Hirayama family was supported by several scientists (ref)(ref) but others argued that asteroid data cannot be explained by the jet stream hypothesis, or they opposed the hypothesis for other reasons not outlined. Alfven and others have argued that the narrowness of planetary rings can be explained as a jet stream effect(ref).

In the 1950’s, Swedish electrical engineers attempted to develop systems to transfer power by direct current over long distances, but ran into difficulties when their mercury rectifiers exploded because of enormous voltage fluctuations. Alfven’s group at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm found that the problem involved a phenomenon discovered in the U.S. in the 1920’s by Irving Langmuir and Harold Mott-Smith. The Americans showed that in a discharge tube the plasma sets up a thin boundary sheath which separates it from a wall or from a probe and shields it from the electric field. The electric field in this sheath accelerates charged particles, ans this is called a double layer. In 1958 Alfven suggested that this phenomenon may be important in space plasmas, especially in or near the Earth’s atmosphere


The first evidence for electrostatic double layers in the magnetosphere was found as early as 1960 by Carl McIlwain, his paper states that “the presence of monoenergetic electrons [in an auroral arc] strongly suggests an electrostatic acceleration mechanism” but he does not say what that mechanism is or mention Alfven’s double layer. The double-layer concept has also been used to explain solar flares and other space phenomena. Double layers are now known to exist but are still not widely used, and many scientist use completely different names to describe this same phenomenon. Other names for a double layer are electrostatic double layer, electric double layer, plasma double layers, electrostatic shock (a type of double layer which is oriented at an oblique angle to the magnetic field in such a way that the perpendicular electric field is much stronger than the parallel electric field), space charge layer, or In laser physics a double layer is sometimes called an ambipolar electric field ( as Double layers are conceptually related to the concept of a 'sheath', see Debye sheath]). This is mainly because this sort of plasma physics is not taught in normal astrophysics education, so it is often forgotten or ignored from their scientific models.

Alfven’s approach to science follows the prediction-testing method advocated by Popper and other philosophers of science, and is quite similar to the “methodology of scientific research programmes” described by Imre Lakatos. By Popperian criteria his theories should have acquired credit by their successful predictions, and by Lakatosian standards his programme should be considered “progressive.” Yet most of the scientific community refuses to follow it or to give Alfven credit for his achievements although many of his basic concepts are now accepted. This case may not be typical of the behaviour of scientists confronted by a theory that violates their understanding of the nature of the physical world yet makes successful predictions. In other cases (general relativity and Big Bang cosmology) such theories have eventually been accepted with the help of successful predictions. Nevertheless, the continuing resistance to Alfven’s work is based on a widely held opinion that his predictions are not derived from a plausible physical theory (i.e., a theory that conforms to the dominant paradigm). If a theory is not acceptable, it does not gain credit by making successful predictions. This would imply that the role of prediction as a means of evaluating scientific theories has been exaggerated.


Another plasma cosmologist/EU proponent, Wallace Thornhill, has made many successful predictions based on plasma cosmoloogy concepts.

In December of 2004, Thornhill predicted that spidery ravine networks ("Lichtenberg" forms) would be seen on Titan, not unlike the "arachnoids" on Venus. He also stated it was unlikely that large craters would be observed, although mainstream investigators were expecting them in abundance. In the standard view of Titan, the moon is billions of years old, allowing plenty of time for massive impacts to scar the surface.

To date, images returned of Titan reveal that large craters are almost non-existent. What they do show are the very Lichtenberg patterns of electrical discharge Thornhill had anticipated.


In October 2001, after the announcement of NASA's 2005 Deep Impact mission, Thornhill wrote:
"Given the erroneous standard model of comets it is an interesting exercise to imagine what surprises are in store for astronomers if the plan is successful. The electrical model suggests the likelihood of an electrical discharge between the comet nucleus and the copper projectile, particularly if the comet is actively flaring at the time. The projectile will approach too quickly for a slow electrical discharge to occur. So the energetic effects of the encounter should exceed that of a simple physical impact, in the same way that was seen with comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 at Jupiter."
Twenty-four hours before the impact event, in collaboration with the Thunderbolts.info group, Thornhill predicted that an electrical "flash" might precede the impact and explosion, and that the explosion would be far more energetic than NASA anticipated. And this is precisely what happened on July 4, 2005, much to the astonishment of NASA and astronomers around the world.

Other successful Thornhill predictions included:

*a lack of increase in water production in the cometary coma (indicating a lack of subsurface water anticipated by astronomers);

*an unexpected lack of ice on the comet nucleus, or water in the immediate ejecta from impact;

*a sculpted comet surface with sharply defined craters, valleys, mesas, and ridges (the precise opposite of what one expects of a "dirty snowball");

*a rearrangement of the comet's jets due to charge distribution.


On February 5, 2005, Australian physicist Wallace Thornhill, co-author of The Electric Universe and Thunderbolts of the Gods, published on his website (http://www.Holoscience.com) his analysis of scientists' discovery of a "warm polar vortex at Saturn's south pole." Thornhill offered a detailed electrical interpretation of the phenomenon, and chastened investigators for referring to the "vortex" as "the first to ever be discovered in the solar system."

He wrote:
"Keck researchers don't seem to have done their homework. Or maybe things that can't be explained get forgotten! Saturn's 'warm polar vortex' is not 'the first to ever be discovered.' The Pioneer Venus Orbiter (PVO) discovered a warm 'giant vortex (Birkeland current) of surprisingly complex structure and behaviour located in the middle atmosphere at the north pole of the planet, with a similar feature presumed to exist at the south pole also.'"
On the question of Saturn's strange polar "hot spot," Thornhill offered an explicit prediction:
"The Electric Universe also predicts, experimentum crucis, that both poles should be hot, not one hot and the other cold."



On January 3, 2008, the Reuters news service published the science headline, "Scientists find hot spot on Saturn's chilly pole": "Saturn's chilly north pole boasts a hot spot of compressed air, a surprising discovery that could shed light on other planets within our own solar system and beyond, researchers said on Thursday.

"Scientists already knew about a hot spot at Saturn's sunny south pole but data from the Cassini spacecraft now shows that the winter pole drenched in darkness also has a hot spot, said Nick Teanby, a planetary scientist, who worked on the study. ‘We didn't expect it to have a hot spot at the north’, said Teanby of the University of Oxford.

Also the Birkeland currents recently found by Themsis connecting the Earths poles to the sun were predicted by Alfven, as were double radio sources, magnetic braking, and others. There are many more, Nobel laureate Langmuir also made a couple of predictions that turned out true, as did Anthony Peratt with galaxy shapes and pinch effects in the cosmos, the polarization properties of the incoherent synchrotron radiation, the spatially varying power law within a source in space; along with predictions by Gerrit L. Verschuur made predictions in the field of CIV and formation of currents in EM rays, as did Oscar Buneman in the field of plasma simulation, etc.


The importance of a theory is to make predictions, and it seems that they have made many, by applying the tested characteristics of plasma in laboratory experiments and scaling this up to the size of the cosmos. An approach that seems forever to produce increasingly accurate predictions and results.
 
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Any angular momentum in the initial clouds of gas that preceded star or planet formation will remain, because there is no mechanism to get rid of it.
.
Only if you considered it a gas which uses 19th century physics.

As a plasma, such a cloud may transfer angular momentum hydromagnetically in a manner described by Hannes Alfvén and Gustaf Arrhenius in their 1997 NASA publication, "Evolution of the Solar System", in Chapter 17. Transfer of Angular Momentum and Condensation of Grains.

See also: "Interstellar clouds and the formation of stars", Alfven, H.; Carlqvist, P. in Astrophysics and Space Science, vol. 55, no. 2, May 1978, p. 487-509 (online in full), in particular, Part II: Hydromagnetics of Cosmic Plasma Clouds.
 
I noticed that as well. Some people still think of plasma and high energy EM in the old way, thinking it is solid matter or gas or just dust. That it would act like regular matter we think of here on earth.

The new stuff about GR and galaxies is pretty revealing.
 
BeAChooser, It looks like we both did not read Peratt's paper carefully enough.

I was thinking too much of the standard model of hydrogen gas cloud + gravity = galaxy. But Peratt's model is more complex - cosmic plasma filaments or sheets + Birkeland currents + tenuous cosmic plasma = galaxy. This still leaves the fatal flaw in his paper:
He chooses to ignore gravity without an explicit justification (a calculation, simulation or estimate of the relative forces).​
.
I think this is covered by Peratt in section IX. "The Extension of Three Dimensional Electromagnetic Particle Simulations to Include Gravitational Forces", in his paper, "Evolution of the plasma universe. II - The formation of systems of galaxies" (IEEE TPS vol. PS-14, Dec. 1986, p. 763-778).

He further notes the applicability of electromagnetic forces and gravity in the preceedings section VIII.B. The Motion of Solid Bodies Condensed in Plasma, summarizing the "approach to the study of cosmic plasma is labeled
"gravito-electrodynamic".

Of course today his 20 year old paper is totally wrong because we have found dark matter (gravitation lensing by dark matter) which destroys his results when included.
.
I think that's a non-sequitur. A theory is not proved wrong because you have your own theory. Otherwise by the same reasoning, I could argue that the theory of dark matter is wrong because Peratt's theory destroys it.
 
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I think this is covered by Peratt in section IX. "The Extension of Three Dimensional Electromagnetic Particle Simulations to Include Gravitational Forces", in his paper, "Evolution of the plasma universe. II - The formation of systems of galaxies" (IEEE TPS vol. PS-14, Dec. 1986, p. 763-778).

He further notes the applicability of electromagnetic forces and gravity in the preceedings section VIII.B. The Motion of Solid Bodies Condensed in Plasma, summarizing the "approach to the study of cosmic plasma is labeled
"gravito-electrodynamic".


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I think that's a non-sequitur. A theory is not proved wrong because you have your own theory. Otherwise by the same reasoning, I could argue that the theory of dark matter is wrong because Peratt's theory destroys it.

I think what RC means there is that Peratt's theory cannot explain gravitational lensing, which in itself is not a theory, but an observation.
 

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