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Something new under the sun

Therefore a plasma model that ignores gravity cannot be applied to a galaxy containing stars.

I'll ask you the same question as David. What force or field is making the planets circling the sun move at the rate they now do, RC? It's not gravity. Could the answer be that the plasmas from which the planets formed were moving in that way before the planets formed? And if that's true (and I suspect it is), then couldn't it also be true that the plasmas from which stars formed were moving just as the stars they became are now moving? You see where I'm going with this ... don't you? :D
 
I'll ask you the same question as David. What force or field is making the planets circling the sun move at the rate they now do, RC? It's not gravity. Could the answer be that the plasmas from which the planets formed were moving in that way before the planets formed? And if that's true (and I suspect it is), then couldn't it also be true that the plasmas from which stars formed were moving just as the stars they became are now moving? You see where I'm going with this ... don't you? :D
Wow - a first year undergraduate physics question that I can actually answer: Kinetic energy
Of course it is plasma magic that is the force or field that is making the satellites circle the earth move at the rate they are now :D .
 
Wow - a first year undergraduate physics question that I can actually answer: Kinetic energy.

But ask yourself ... where did that kinetic energy come from? Isn't the angular momentum that kinetic energy represents the result of a cloud of plasma that was rotating BEFORE the star (or galaxy) condensed and formed? Indeed, why does the sun rotate, RC?
 
But ask yourself ... where did that kinetic energy come from? Isn't the angular momentum that kinetic energy represents the result of a cloud of plasma that was rotating BEFORE the star (or galaxy) condensed and formed? Indeed, why does the sun rotate, RC?
Yes, the kinetic energy comes from the angular momentum of the rotating cloud. What is your point?
 
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David, have you asked yourself what field or force is moving the planets at the rate they are moving around the sun? And don't say gravity. That's just what's keeping them from flying away now. ;)

Uh, huh. It is very apparent you don't have a clue, you are the one who made the claim that somehow Perrat developed a model that explains the flat rotation curve of the galaxies without darm matter.

Yet when asked you refuse to name the force that adds to the velocity of the stars in a galaxy.

Because you really don't understand Perrat's work, you just wave his name around but you don't understand the concepts at all. So while you knock dark matter as a gnome you are much worse because you are just a blind faith based demagogue. You spout words as magic mantras put you are like the catholic schools boy who chants latin but knows not what he says.

The 'force' is called inertia or momentum. (The one that provides for the velocity of planets in thier orbits)

See I answered you question, something you can't do because while you abuse the name of Perrat you haven't a clue what his model means.

So procede with your arm waving, opaqueness and distraction.

You do not understand Perrat's model, that is apparent.
 
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Yes, the kinetic energy comes from the angular momentum of the rotating cloud. What is your point?

I'm surprised you don't see the point. So let me help you. :)

The rotational velocities of the planets are not a result of gravity but of the rotation of the plasmas from which the sun and planets formed. At that time, electromagnetic phenomena played a very large role in the motions of those plasmas. Indeed, the reason most of the angular momentum in the solar system is not in the sun but in the planets is because EM effects transferred that angular momentum from the sun's plasmas to the plasmas that eventually became planets. This now accepted theory was first introduced by ... guess who? ... Alfven and Arrhenius. Although the mainstream likes to credit others for the discovery. :D

Now take what you've learned from this example and consider the galaxy. When it first began to form, most of the matter in the galaxy was probably still plasma not bound by stars. Most of the stars formed AFTER the galaxy formed. Hence, the rotation velocities of the stars (like the planets in our solar system) are due not to gravity but to the initial angular momentum of the condensing PLASMA cloud, modified by whatever EM phenomena were present in the forming galaxy. So a model like Peratt's which treats the matter creating the rotation curves as plasma is quite reasonable. And note that galaxies have the same problem that our solar system has ... moving the angular momentum out from the center. Explaining that is no problem for plasma astrophysicists (see Peratt's model) but gravity-only astrophysicists have to invent gnomes ... like vast amounts of dark matter ... to do it. Now do you see my point? :D
 
I'll ask you the same question as David. What force or field is making the planets circling the sun move at the rate they now do, RC? It's not gravity. Could the answer be that the plasmas from which the planets formed were moving in that way before the planets formed? And if that's true (and I suspect it is), then couldn't it also be true that the plasmas from which stars formed were moving just as the stars they became are now moving? You see where I'm going with this ... don't you? :D


You 'suspect'? What that the Underwear Gnomes are stealing your underwear?

No. Because of the acceleration of the actual angular momentum as the material collapses has on the material as it contracts. Less area of rotation, same mass means that the velocity of rotation increases.

So , no it is not the same.

Have you actually looked at the pictures of the Eagle nebula or parts of the Pleadies? Your ignorance is showing again. Do you even understand that which you claim to critique, no you don't. Or you would provide an answer as to what keeps Lerners plasmoid from collapsing, if it was 40,000 soalr masses in a sphere of 43 AU radius.

What is really patheic is you don't understand the models you wave around as magic mantras.

Please explain your new Gnome "plasma creates the angular momnetum of planets", ever heard of a Bok globule or a dark molecular clouds, how about colliding galaxies? Are you really going to say that it is the EM force which is causing us to be attracted to the Andromeda galaxy? (Cue more bad statistics from Arp.)

Your gnome has now aquirred an unexplained Pixie.


So now try to show how Jupiter aquirred it's angular momentum from EM forces and how it couldn't be accounted for by just being a high velocity mass that got captured in orbit around the sun.
 
I'm surprised you don't see the point. So let me help you. :)

The rotational velocities of the planets are not a result of gravity but of the rotation of the plasmas from which the sun and planets formed. At that time, electromagnetic phenomena played a very large role in the motions of those plasmas. Indeed, the reason most of the angular momentum in the solar system is not in the sun but in the planets is because EM effects transferred that angular momentum from the sun's plasmas to the plasmas that eventually became planets. This now accepted theory was first introduced by ... guess who? ... Alfven and Arrhenius. Although the mainstream likes to credit others for the discovery. :D
Uh huh , roight, where and when did they explain that BAC, in some newpaper tabloid. Let us see the math , okay?

Does it explain the formation of the moon of earth and why Uranus rotates backwards, while you are at it.

You are such a charlatan Karl JR.

Stop waving your magic gnames aroun, they are your Protective Gnomes, but you don't understand the teachings of the Gnames you Invoke.

So , put the pedal to metal and show where that is demonstrated and accepted.
 
I'm surprised you don't see the point. So let me help you. :)

The rotational velocities of the planets are not a result of gravity but of the rotation of the plasmas from which the sun and planets formed. At that time, electromagnetic phenomena played a very large role in the motions of those plasmas. Indeed, the reason most of the angular momentum in the solar system is not in the sun but in the planets is because EM effects transferred that angular momentum from the sun's plasmas to the plasmas that eventually became planets. This now accepted theory was first introduced by ... guess who? ... Alfven and Arrhenius. Although the mainstream likes to credit others for the discovery. :D

Now take what you've learned from this example and consider the galaxy. When it first began to form, most of the matter in the galaxy was probably still plasma not bound by stars. Most of the stars formed AFTER the galaxy formed. Hence, the rotation velocities of the stars (like the planets in our solar system) are due not to gravity but to the initial angular momentum of the condensing PLASMA cloud, modified by whatever EM phenomena were present in the forming galaxy. So a model like Peratt's which treats the matter creating the rotation curves as plasma is quite reasonable. And note that galaxies have the same problem that our solar system has ... moving the angular momentum out from the center. Explaining that is no problem for plasma astrophysicists (see Peratt's model) but gravity-only astrophysicists have to invent gnomes ... like vast amounts of dark matter ... to do it. Now do you see my point? :D


I see your point and your circular reasoning:
The rotation of galaxy was caused by the angular momentum of the initial material that formed it. BeAChooser chooses to ignore the evidence for dark matter and so the only material available is plasma. Thus the rotation of the galaxy was caused only by the "initial angular momentum of the condensing PLASMA cloud, modified by whatever EM phenomena were present in the forming galaxy". Therefore dark matter does not exist.

The reality is:
The rotation of galaxy was caused by the angular momentum of the initial material that formed it. We have evidence that dark matter exists. We have evidence that plasma exists. Therefore the rotation of the galaxy was caused by the initial angular momentum of the condensing plasma cloud, modified greatly by the dark matter and insignificantly by whatever "EM phenomena" were present in the forming galaxy.
 
Wow - a first year undergraduate physics question that I can actually answer: Kinetic energy
Of course it is plasma magic that is the force or field that is making the satellites circle the earth move at the rate they are now :D .

Oh dear.

That's not even undergrad, that's high school.
 
acceleration of the actual angular momentum

"Acceleration of the angular momentum"? :rolleyes:

Please explain your new Gnome "plasma creates the angular momnetum of planets"

David, I didn't say that. You need to learn to read if you want to understand ANYTHING. ;)

So now try to show how Jupiter aquirred it's angular momentum from EM forces and how it couldn't be accounted for by just being a high velocity mass that got captured in orbit around the sun.

I'm surprised at you, David. You demonstrate that you know less than you think about the distribution of mass and angular momentum in the solar system. And where that angular momentum came from originally. Why you don't even appear to know that the total angular momentum is conserved. You also again demonstrate that you haven't read anything I previously posted on this subject even though you were present on such threads. Because I explained all this on previous threads. :D
 
The "99+ percent of the observed matter is plasma" of your statement is incorrect. We have observed dark matter which consists of about 22% of the energy density of the universe. The 74% of the universe that is dark energy is more inferred than observed but it is needed "to reconcile the measured geometry of space with the total amount of matter in the universe" (as in the article). This leaves 4% of matter in various forms of plasma.


Ahhhh, the ol' "the observable universe is 99.99999% plasma!" claim... yawn!

As you know RC, this fact has been pointed out repeatedly to these woo by you, me and others. The fact of the matter is they simply wish to ignore it and push their woo-nonsense.

Flap... flap... flap... :rolleyes:
 
The gravitational force is G m1 m2/r^2, and the electromagnetic force is q1 q2/(4 pi epsilon_0 r^2). Taking the stars to be similar to the sun and using our 100C figure for the charge, G m^2 is about 10^50, and q^2/(4 pi epsilon_0) is about 10^14. So the gravitational force is larger by a factor of 10^36.


The irony here is that I and others have pointed this fact out numerous times to Zeuzzz. Even more ironic is the fact that this same calculation appears in a paper that Zeuzzz has referenced many times as a way to support his Electric Sun claims.

I've also noticed something else. It seems to me (tough to tell since I'm "ignoring" him) that Zeuzzz is now backing off his earlier claims that the discrepancies in the acceleration of the Pioneer probe (the Pioneer Anomaly, about which this thread was created) could be explained by electrostatic effects assuming a charge of 100C on the Sun. He seemed very adamant about this in the beginning of his posts, yet now he's acting as if it's a ludicrous claim.

Am I reading this wrong? Is he actually backing off those earlier claims or is he just trying to spin things like he usually does?

If it's the former, I can understand why (see post #465) and hats off to Zeuzzz for finally learning something. If it's the latter, well... I think it's all been said already...
 
Translation: "Phew! It's a good thing he gave up before I had to admit defeat, myself!"


I'm not sure that Zeuzzz or BAC or the other woos on this thread even think they are in a position to "admit defeat." I'm beginning to develop the opinion that they are legitimately deluded, most likely self-deluded, but deluded none-the-less.

If such is the case, no amount of pointing out glaring inconsistencies within their arguments (going on for 15+ pages now) will make any difference to them.

Folks, I say let the trolls starve...
 
Uh huh , roight, where and when did they explain that BAC, in some newpaper tabloid. Let us see the math , okay? ... snip ... So , put the pedal to metal and show where that is demonstrated and accepted.


Sigh.

Don't let me stop you from looking foolish, David.

Here is something recent from the mainstream:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/071031-star-collapse.html: "New Spin on How Stars are Born By Ker Than, 31 October 2007 ... snip ... New stars form from enormous clouds of gas and dust collapse under their own gravity into dense spheres. The packed cores are ignited by thermonuclear reactions. As they collapse, the clouds rotate, and like an ice skater pulling in his arms while spinning, rotation speed increases as the collapsing cloud gets smaller. Some of this rotation energy, called angular momentum, must be dissipated before the star can contract completely. How this happens, though, is unknown. 'Given the size difference between an ordinary star like our sun and a typical molecular cloud, if the rotation was allowed to increase as the cloud collapsed, the [apparent] centrifugal forces would never allow the material to collapse into anything small enough to form a star," said study team member Antonio Chrysostomou at the University of Hertfordshire in the United Kingdom. "Hence, there needs to be a mechanism present which removes this angular momentum." A new model by Chrysostomou and colleagues suggests excess material and energy are borne away from the protostar along helical magnetic field lines that surround the star. This stellar exodus carries away enough angular momentum to allow the spinning cloud to undergo the final phase of collapse necessary to become a star. Their findings are detailed in the Nov. 1 issue of the journal Nature."

Now in case you are having difficulty understanding that, they are saying EM phenomena (see where they talk about helical magnetic fields, David?) are transferring the angular momentum out of the mass that will become the sun. If that doesn't happen, then the cloud of plasma can't become a star.

What is funny is that these mainstream astrophysicists apparently didn't know (perhaps because they aren't taught this stuff in school?) that Alfven (you know, that Nobel Prize winner in physics) already solved this problem using EM phenomena. They should have located and read "Cosmogony As An Extrapolation Of Magnetospheric Research" by Hannes Alfven, 1984, "Abstract. A theory of the origin and evolution of the Solar System (Alfven and Arrehnius, 1975, 1976) which considered electromagnetic forces and plasma effects is revised in the light of new information supplied by space research." Reading that paper, they'd have seen that Chrysostomou's finding aren't all that original. And Chrysostomou is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. Basically he's saying the magnetic fields are twisted due to the charged particles spinning as a result of the gravitational collapse. He overlooks the question of why particles are charged and therefore ignores the role that electricity has in the process. He apparently missed the fact that helically wound magnetic fields are characteristic of Birkeland Currents. And perhaps the greatest symptom of Chrysostomou's lack of understanding is calling the material "gas" instead of "plasma". Now mainstream astronomers may eventually get there ... but they sure are taking a circuitous route to understanding the role that EM has in the formation of the solar system (and galaxies). :D

According to Alfven, the Sun behaves as a unipolar inductor producing a current that flows (look at the the drawing http://www.plasma-universe.com/imag...it.png/400px-Heliospheric-current-circuit.png ) outwards along both axes B2, and inwards in the equatorial plane, C, and along Solar magnetic field lines B1. The current closes at a large distance, B3. Alfven wrote (http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Heliospheric_current_circuit ) "The central body acts as a unipolar inductor and the e.m.f. is produced in region A. The mechanical force on the solar atmosphere dF = I ds x B tends to decelerate the rotation of the central body. The current transfers angular momentum from the central body to the surrounding plasma. Hence, we have a decelerating force applied to the solar atmosphere in the polar region. This should produce a non-uniform rotation of the Sun of the type which is observed (angular velocity decreasing with increasing latitude. Whether this interpretation is the correct quantitative explanation of the non-uniform rotation is an open question. In region B1 , the currents are field-aligned. It seems to be a general rule of cosmic physics that field-aligned currents frequently manifest themselves as luminous filaments (II.4). If the current in B1 is spread over an extended region, we should expect filaments. Equatorial streamers in the solar corona may be explained in this way. Similarly, in the polar region, the vertical currents near the solar surface may produce the polar plumes in the solar corona. The model predicts that there should be currents near the axis strong enough to match the current in the equatorial plane. Such currents should be observed when a spacecraft is sent to the high latitude regions. It is an open question to what extent they flow very close to the axis. They may be distributed over a large region and may in part flow at medium latitudes."

I've noted (with sources) in previous threads that you participated in, David, that currents have been found flowing above the axes of the sun. They've been detected at medium latitudes too. And it's now an established fact that a heliospheric current sheet, like Alfven postulated, exists. So I'm curious why you doubt the role EM played in distributing the angular momentum of the original cloud of plasma throughout the solar system. I'm curious why you still think it's *all about gravity*

Now just for you, David, here are some other sources you can fail to actually read or understand. :D

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v258/n5537/abs/258692a0.html "Nature 258, 692 - 693 (25 December 1975) ... snip ... Angular momentum transfer to the inner Jovian satellites, A.MOGRO-CAMPERO... snip ... THE transfer of angular momentum from a central rotating body in the presence of a magnetic field has been discussed in connection with the evolutionary history of the Solar System1. We here consider angular momentum transfer in the inner Jovian satellite system. Electron flux measurements near Io's flux tube, and theoretical estimates of the electric current flowing through Io's flux tube are used to estimate the angular momentum transfer during the evolutionary history of the Jovian system. We find that, under certain conditions, those currents are sufficient to produce an angular momentum transfer from Jupiter equal to the present angular momentum of the inner satellites. References 1. Alfvén, H., and Arrhenius, G., Astrophys. Space Sci. 21, 117 (1973)."

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1402-4896/1995/T60/023 "Plasma vortex structures and the evolution of the solar system—the legacy of Hannes Alfvén, Rickard Lundin et al 1995 Phys. Scr. T60 198-205 ... snip ... The transfer of angular momentum from the magnetized sun to the planets was due to partial plasma corotation in the early solar nebula. In this report some important aspects of plasma vortex structures and the Alfvén cosmogony will be addressed and it will be shown that a number of new observations within the plasma environment of planets and in interplanetary space corroborate cosmogony as envisaged by Hannes Alfvén."
 
I see your point and your circular reasoning:
The rotation of galaxy was caused by the angular momentum of the initial material that formed it.

Where is the circular reasoning in that, RC? What do you think causes galaxies to rotate? Gravity? By all means ... tell us how. In contrast, EM phenomena have no problem introducing rotation into systems.

Papers (by Peratt) already linked on this thread (you know, the ones we are debating), describe large scale computer simulations of interacting galactic sized Birkeland currents that produce all of the observed types of galaxy shapes, including spirals with the rotation curves that are observed. And they do it using known physics that can even be experimentally reproduced here on earth in labs. And your complaint was that he didn't model stars. But as I just showed, at the origin of the rotation of a galaxy, a galaxy would have been mostly made of plasma not yet bound by stars. So it would be subject to the EM forces Peratt simulated. So modeling plasmas instead of stars was the right thing to do if you truly want to understand rotation curves of galaxies. So your objection is baseless and no dark matter is needed to explain galaxy rotation curves.

The rotation of galaxy was caused by the angular momentum of the initial material that formed it. We have evidence that dark matter exists. We have evidence that plasma exists. Therefore the rotation of the galaxy was caused by the initial angular momentum of the condensing plasma cloud, modified greatly by the dark matter and insignificantly by whatever "EM phenomena" were present in the forming galaxy.

And you are doing nothing more than desperately waving hands. :D
 
Originally Posted by sol invictus
Oh dear. That's not even undergrad, that's high school.

Nope, more like junior high...

What's hilarious, folks, is that these two witty posters, because they've chosen to put me on ignore and are only seeing one side of a conversation, haven't a clue what is really being discussed. I wonder what they think causes the rotation of the planets in solar systems and stars in galaxies? :D
 
Where is the circular reasoning in that, RC? What do you think causes galaxies to rotate? Gravity? By all means ... tell us how. In contrast, EM phenomena have no problem introducing rotation into systems.

Papers (by Peratt) already linked on this thread (you know, the ones we are debating), describe large scale computer simulations of interacting galactic sized Birkeland currents that produce all of the observed types of galaxy shapes, including spirals with the rotation curves that are observed. And they do it using known physics that can even be experimentally reproduced here on earth in labs. And your complaint was that he didn't model stars. But as I just showed, at the origin of the rotation of a galaxy, a galaxy would have been mostly made of plasma not yet bound by stars. So it would be subject to the EM forces Peratt simulated. So modeling plasmas instead of stars was the right thing to do if you truly want to understand rotation curves of galaxies. So your objection is baseless and no dark matter is needed to explain galaxy rotation curves.



And you are doing nothing more than desperately waving hands. :D
There is BeAChooser again "desperately waving hands" :D

Please show the proof that EM forces dominate the gravitational forces.
 
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