Addressing problems with the government's account

Eight years removed and we're still blaming Clinton's advisor Jamie Gorelick for the so-call "Information Wall" pre-9/11?
Can you show how the mere passage of time affects the validity of such a claim.
 
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004956

This explains all about how the FBI was not allowed to share information with inteligence agencies prior to 9/11

For all the dubious conspiracy claims about the 9/11 commision, the fact that Jamie Gorelick was on the commision is one Truthers don't seem to want to talk about. Maybe that is becuase it shows that the problems in the system predate GWB.


Just to clarify: It wasn't illegal for the CIA to give the information to the FBI. What would have violated the directives instituted during the Clinton Administration would have been for the FBI's intelligence division to have given the information to the criminal-investigation division.
 
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004956

This explains all about how the FBI was not allowed to share information with inteligence agencies prior to 9/11

For all the dubious conspiracy claims about the 9/11 commision, the fact that Jamie Gorelick was on the commision is one Truthers don't seem to want to talk about. Maybe that is becuase it shows that the problems in the system predate GWB.
Wall Street Journal spin is your proof?

Both the Justice Department’s office of inspector general and the 9/11 Commission will later back Bongardt and say the investigation should have been a criminal investigation, as the “wall” procedures did not apply. The inspector general will comment that Bongardt “was correct that the wall had been created to deal with the handling of only [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] information and that there was no legal barrier to a criminal agent being present for an interview with Almihdhar if it occurred in the intelligence investigation.” [US Department of Justice, 11/2004, pp. 351 pdf file] The 9/11 Commission will remark that Corsi “misunderstood” the wall and that, “Simply put, there was no legal reason why the information [Corsi] possessed could not have been shared with [Bongardt].” It will conclude, “It is now clear that everyone involved was confused about the rules governing the sharing and use of information gathered in intelligence channels. Because Almihdhar was being sought for his possible connection to or knowledge of the Cole bombing, he could be investigated or tracked under the existing Cole criminal case. No new criminal case was needed for the criminal agent to begin searching for [him]. And as the NSA had approved the passage of its information to the criminal agent, he could have conducted a search using all available information. As a result of this confusion, the criminal agents who were knowledgeable about al-Qaeda and experienced with criminal investigative techniques, including finding suspects and possible criminal charges, were thus excluded from the search.”

Cached text only
From Agent Rowley's Memo to Director Mueller:

During the early aftermath of September 11th, when I happened to be recounting the pre-September 11th events concerning the Moussaoui investigation to other FBI personnel in other divisions or in FBIHQ, almost everyone's first question was "Why?--Why would an FBI agent(s) deliberately sabotage a case? (I know I shouldn't be flippant about this, but jokes were actually made that the key FBIHQ personnel had to be spies or moles, like Robert Hansen, who were actually working for Osama Bin Laden to have so undercut Minneapolis' effort.)

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020603/memo.html
 
Here is Gorelick's response to Ashcroft's accusations:

Fourth, the memo I wrote in March 1995 -- which concerns information-sharing in two particular cases, including the original World Trade Center bombing -- permits freer coordination between intelligence and criminal investigators than was subsequently permitted by the 1995 guidelines or the 2001 Thompson memo. The purpose of my memo was to resolve a problem presented to me: facilitating investigations on both the intelligence side and criminal side at the same time. My memo directed agents on both sides to share information -- and, in particular, directed one agent to work on both the criminal and intelligence investigations -- to ensure the flow of information "over the wall." We set up special procedures because of the extraordinary circumstances and the necessity to prevent a court from throwing out any conviction in those cases. Had my memo been in place in August 2001 -- when, as Ashcroft said, FBI officials rejected a criminal warrant of Moussaoui because they feared "breaching the wall" -- it would have allowed those agents to obtain a criminal warrant without fear of jeopardizing an intelligence investigation.

The Truth about 'the Wall'
 
I think most citizens would like to hear from FBI agents Corsi, Middleton, Frasca, Maltbie and Bowman.

Why do we know more about Britney Spears than we do about the crucial decisons these agents made in the lead up to 9/11? Have there been any media interviews of these agents?
 
So let me get this straight. Any republicans on the 9/11 commission could have covered mistakes that republicans made up, but Jamie Gorelick was correcting the spin about the "wall" memo?

The fact is The "wall" memo may not have been intended to block this sharing of information, but the FBI's legal people interpreted it that way. The fact that they thought it did prevented them from sharing information. If you look into it deeper you can see that it WAS intended to do just what occured, limit the power of the government to share information in an attempt to protect privacy.

and I amn cofused. JCM are you saying that it wasn't illegal for them to share information, or that Gorelick tried to CYA? It seems like you are saying both.
 
Why do we know more about Britney Spears than we do about the crucial decisons these agents made in the lead up to 9/11?
Because no one wants to start counting down the days until any of those guys do a Playboy spread. :p
 
They are only scapegoats if the systemic explanation is correct. We don't know this to be true.
wrong, they're only scapegoats if you have no real reason to assign blame to them

so do you have a real reason to assign blame to them?
 
Does information come out with the passage of time, JCM? Or is it stuck in limbo waiting to be found?
You referenced no such information
Uh-oh JCM is not going to like this!
I never claimed to blame Clinton's advisor Jamie Gorelick for the so-call "Information Wall" pre-9/11
 
So let me get this straight. Any republicans on the 9/11 commission could have covered mistakes that republicans made up, but Jamie Gorelick was correcting the spin about the "wall" memo?

The fact is The "wall" memo may not have been intended to block this sharing of information, but the FBI's legal people interpreted it that way. The fact that they thought it did prevented them from sharing information. If you look into it deeper you can see that it WAS intended to do just what occured, limit the power of the government to share information in an attempt to protect privacy.

and I amn cofused. JCM are you saying that it wasn't illegal for them to share information, or that Gorelick tried to CYA? It seems like you are saying both.
Gorelick's point is that Ashcroft's Justice Department went beyond her restrictions. In Philip Shenon's book he writes that ALL the commissioners were upset with Ashcroft's accusations. The wall wasn't intended to prevent FBI from surveiling and arresting al Qaeda operatives. Reviews of the FBI's conduct in relation to the 'wall' restrictions were proven to be unfounded. I've already posted links.

Here is another that examines agent Bowman's decision: Cached text only
 
wrong, they're only scapegoats if you have no real reason to assign blame to them

so do you have a real reason to assign blame to them?
Yes. They didn't do their jobs. Bush did nothing. Rice did nothing. Tenet failed to share crucial intel with the FBI in a timely manner. If it was permissable to watchlist al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar in late August then it was permissable to watchlist them much earlier. Tenet has never given a satisfactory answer to explain this failure. The fact that they were watchlisted in late August proves that the 'wall' excuse is nonsense.
 
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Gorelick's point is that Ashcroft's Justice Department went beyond her restrictions. In Philip Shenon's book he writes that ALL the commissioners were upset with Ashcroft's accusations. The wall wasn't intended to prevent FBI from surveiling and arresting al Qaeda operatives. Reviews of the FBI's conduct in relation to the 'wall' restrictions were proven to be unfounded. I've already posted links.

Here is another that examines agent Bowman's decision: Cached text only

The memo said that information could not be shared between Foreign intelligince gathering and Domestic criminal investigation. This was supposedly to insure that there were no signs of foreign intelligence being involved in domestic criminal investigations since they are forbiden by law to operate in the US. They didn't want to create a legal loophole for defendents to exploit (at least that is the story). The fact is the two groups were not sharing information, evn when it was legal because the line was fuzzy and they had been instructed to err on the side of caution.
 

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