Should prostitution be legalized?

[Cleon]

If you want to argue that the only women in prostitution are there by their own choice,

Nobody has said this.

If you want to argue that your own demand for prostitution doesn't increase the demand for human trafficking for sexual exploitation, there's a lot of evidence that says otherwise.

No, you're overreaching. Explain how going to a legal brothel in Nevada contributes to the demand for human trafficking.

Plus, the original claim was not limited to prostitution--everything from pornography to strip clubs. Where's your evidence that watching porn or going to strip clubs contributes to the demand for human trafficking?

If you want to pretend that the women coerced into prostitution aren't also coerced into stripping or making porn, or any other activity there is a "demand" for, and that your own use of porn or strip clubs isn't part of that demand, the go ahead and pretend. It doesn't make it true, though.

The claim was yours. The onus to provide evidence is on you.

How much of the porn industry or exotic dancers are coerced into their position? 50%? 10%? 2%? Are you going to provide the data, or just blow more hot air?

Show some evidence that going to a strip club or buying a porno contributes to the demand for human trafficking. If you can't legitimately defend the point, the mature thing to do is concede it.

 

[The Atheist]

Why does anyone tolerate this?

How is this civilized? How is this enlightened?

Look, I'm sorry, but all the jumping up and down about the immorality of it just isn't aiding your cause. It isn't called "the world's oldest profession" for nothing. Ever since Eve saw Adam's reaction to her nudity, some women have realised that they were sitting on a goldmine.

Nowadays, as no doubt in Noah's days, some women are forced into prostitution through slavery or economic necessity. Whether it is legal or not it will not go away.

Blaming men is also pointless - how are you going to stop them?

At least legalisation gives the woman increased protection. To be perfectly frank, I find most female opposition to prostitution to be "I know what's best for you" wrapped up in righteous indignation that a woman should choose to anything she damn well likes with her vagina. Most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers! The thought that one can support a woman's body being so much her own that she may kill another [almost] human being, while denying that she may put a purchase price on her vagina is repugnant, in my opinion. How's your position on abortion, Meg?

 

[kosai]

I find most female opposition to prostitution to be "I know what's best for you"

Which is precisely how we got these laws in the first place. Some of the women here arguing against legalization sound like the "feminists" of old who used the exact same prostitution = white slavery argument. Let's not forget the idea behind the the Woman's Christian Temperance Union's leader Frances Willard, that women were of the morally superior sex and know what is best for society. Her whole idea of the Home Protection ballot was to create a more moral, AND more Christian America. The "blue laws" and prohibition on alcohol have worked out about as well as their anti-prostitution stance.

Controlling what other people can do with their own bodies is taking away the most basic of rights of a person male or female. It doesn't work and is a complete waste of time to criminalize. These vice squads have only succeeded in testing how far entrapment law can be stretched while at the same taking police away from fighting real crimes.

 

[meg]

At least legalisation gives the woman increased protection. To be perfectly frank, I find most female opposition to prostitution to be "I know what's best for you" wrapped up in righteous indignation that a woman should choose to anything she damn well likes with her vagina. Most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers! The thought that one can support a woman's body being so much her own that she may kill another [almost] human being, while denying that she may put a purchase price on her vagina is repugnant, in my opinion. How's your position on abortion, Meg?

What protection? What evidence can you show that legalization has provided any increase of protection for prostitutes?

FYI My position on abortion is quite liberal. I believe that a woman should have a right to an abortion right up until pretty much the time of birth, no questions asked. Personally, I believe abortions should be legal and free in every state.

I don't have any problem with any price a woman puts on her own vagina. What I have a problem with is other people putting a purchase price on her vagina. And that some people, as long as they still just have to pay $x, don't care about the difference.

 

[meg]

Controlling what other people can do with their own bodies is taking away the most basic of rights of a person male or female.

Yes. That is what prostitution does.

 

[Pardalis]

Uh. Except we're not talking about products here. We're talking about human beings. I suspect that's the whole problem, really; people equating other human beings to objects that can be demanded, bought, stolen or used, like software or cheap dvds.

I'd say that's your causation, right there.

Not to mention that it's not only the prostitute who benefits from prostitution, but also a third party, the "pimp", who sometimes gets more profit, especially by having more than one girl in "stock".

And what I bolded is exactly why I have a problem with legalizing prostitution. The whole idea of treating people like goods. I can't wrap my mind around it, and frankly I don't think I want to.

I've tried to read and catch up with this thread and I must say both sides make excellent points.

Back on the fence for me.

 

[meg]

Pardalis, exactly. Thank you. It is indeed the third party that is the problem. When we talk about prostitution, we are not just talking about one exchange between two people. To pretend that is the only exchange is to ignore what is really going on.

Kosai, thank you for comparing my positions to the "feminists of old"! I am honored. If it weren't for the "feminists of old" I wouldn't be able to even converse with you now, as the demands of the olden days were for women to be submissive to the male in all ways, ignorant, poorly educated, and if I were to "act up", I could be beaten.

Kind of like the life of a modern day prostitute..

 

[The Atheist]

FYI My position on abortion is quite liberal. I believe that a woman should have a right to an abortion right up until pretty much the time of birth, no questions asked. Personally, I believe abortions should be legal and free in every state.

I don't have any problem with any price a woman puts on her own vagina. What I have a problem with is other people putting a purchase price on her vagina. And that some people, as long as they still just have to pay $x, don't care about the difference.

Knew it.

If you can't see the ridiculous contradiction in your position, you never will.

You don't mind killing a viable human child at the whim of a woman, but that same woman will not be legally allowed to sell her vagina.

Unbelievable.

 

[Pardalis]

You don't mind killing a viable human child at the whim of a woman, but that same woman will not be legally allowed to sell her vagina.

I see your point, but I think a better analogy would be surrogate mothers, not abortion.

Damn, not an easy issue.

 

[Memento_mori]

one point we're missing is, it wouldn't be as much fun if it were legal.
But seriously, what politician in his/her right mind would go on record as
a supporter, much less actually come up with a draft.

 

[Pardalis]

Atheist's point got me thinking, and it always brings me back to the same problem: the third party.

Let's take for example surrogate mothers I just suggested. In both cases women allow their bodies to be used minus compensation.

Now, is there a third party in surrogacy that benefits from the exchange of services? I think there are some agencies involved but I think they have more to do with controlling the procedure and the medical aspects (as I said, I don't know much about it, I'm just thinking out loud). I don't know if that's what they call "commercial surrogacy". Personally, if the agencies or third party are benefiting monetarily from it I think there's an ethical problem comparable to prostitution, that compares also to a lesser extent to human trafficking. If the parents-to-be and the surrogate have mutual consent, and that the procedure if followed to be sure everyone is safe I don't see a problem with it.

Let's compare it to prostitution. If that business was only between the client and the woman, then I would be more inclined to be for legalization (regulation), since both parties are consensual, and no third party is benefiting from that practice. It would be like free-lance work (although the thought of it is weird to me). The problem that remains is, like BPSCG said earlier, how exactly do you declare it for your taxes (If you don't it would be considered work "under the table" and thus illegal), and how do you regulate how it is done? Since sex is much more taboo and intimate than surrogacy, which in my mind is more a medical procedure, how does the government or a regulatory body see that it is done according to the law, and that both parties are not used? Surrogate parents I believed are followed psychologically (or at least they should be). There would have to be the same applied for prostitutes.

I'm racking my brains.

 

[Richard Masters]

Let's compare it to prostitution. If that business was only between the client and the woman, then I would be more inclined to be for legalization (regulation), since both parties are consensual, and no third party is benefiting from that practice.

Did you think prostitution benefits the President?

Do you oppose U.S. Pharmaceutical research because it benefits poor foreign countries?

How about killing your wife (or boyfriend as the case may be)? Does it benefit any third parties? If not, are you more inclined to do it?

 

[Pardalis]

I have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[Blue Mountain]

The arguments made about global trafficking in women for the sex trade brought to mind the fact this sort of thing sadly occurs of a lot of lower skilled jobs:

• Domestics from south-east Asia often end up with rich employers who take possession of their passports
• Children and young adults are forcibly recruited into armies (legal and otherwise)
• Illegals in southern U.S. states are paid poorly and have no benefits due to their status

I'm sure others could add to this list.

The point I'm trying to make is that the sex trade is not necessarily driving the trafficking of people. It's desperate people trying to make a better life for themselves being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people.

On the other side of the coin, if you don't staff the legal brothels with illegals from other countries, who are you going to staff them with?

 

[Brendy]

There's nothing questionable about it. Adults should be allowed to spend their money on whatever they like as long as it does not hurt anyone else. By making these things legal it actually makes things better for everyone. The odds for gambling in Vegas are much much better than playing in a state lottery. It's not the government profiting from questionable behaviour that is the problem, it's when they choose to hold a monopoly on it that makes it unfair.

Odds against you on a well laid craps bet in a casino: ~-1.5%
Odds against you playing state run "numbers" games: usually -50%

The Odds bet behind your place bet is 50/50. Best bet in the casino besides counting cards in blackjack. Yay! I love gambling.

I don't have much to add here expect agreeing that I don't see anything wrong with prostitution. And I don't like all the talk about sex slaves being the reason people don't want it legal.

It wasnt long ago that a lot of labor laws in the US didn't exist. And still some labor laws are still broken. Should we make all labor illegal because some people are abusing their employees through bad work environments ect.
The answer is no.

If the government highly regulated the prostitution industry in the US then a lot of the problems with sex trafficking would dissappear.

I think a lot of people in this country only fake their revoltution with protitution and sex. Porn is a multi-billion dollar industry. Someone's watching it. They are getting paid to have sex no? What's the difference?

 

[kosai]

Kosai, thank you for comparing my positions to the "feminists of old"! I am honored. If it weren't for the "feminists of old" I wouldn't be able to even converse with you now, as the demands of the olden days were for women to be submissive to the male in all ways, ignorant, poorly educated, and if I were to "act up", I could be beaten.

Kind of like the life of a modern day prostitute..

Well as dramatic as all that sounds, I don't think you'd agree with them on many issues. They fought for many good things such as fairer labor laws, better public health and sanitation and of course women's rights. They were backers of prohibition which I am sure you are aware could only be considered a complete failure. It was also a very racist organization, limiting membership to North American White Women only. Even today, one of the modern WCTU's big issues is against gay rights and the support of bans on gay marriage. Funny isn't it as soon as you lift yourself out of the minority you are so quick to step on the heads of the newly below you.

The real issue here is those arguing against legalization really *need* the slave trade to be lumped in with prostitution for your argument to hold. You are making a fantasy argument that demand is somehow linked to legality when it's plainly not. Legalization opens these places to inspection, with our current system there is no regulation to protect sex workers and this is what widens the avenue for abuse. Where there IS legal brothels, such as in Nevada, I don't see a huge influx of sex slaves but maybe you have some data that would challenge that notion.

 

[Magyar]

Originally Posted by meg
Uh. Except we're not talking about products here. We're talking about human beings. I suspect that's the whole problem, really; people equating other human beings to objects that can be demanded, bought, stolen or used, like software or cheap dvds.
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Originally Posted by Pardalis
I'd say that's your causation, right there.
Not to mention that it's not only the prostitute who benefits from prostitution, but also a third party, the "pimp", who sometimes gets more profit, especially by having more than one girl in "stock".

And what I bolded is exactly why I have a problem with legalizing prostitution. The whole idea of treating people like goods. I can't wrap my mind around it, and frankly I don't think I want to.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HELLO, HELLO Earth Calling Meg and Pardalis - Is there anyone out there?????

Ok, that was a bit facetious, but REALLY you may not like it, may not want to face it or you may not have thought about it, but the reality IS that YES people are a commodity.
It's collectively referred to as LABOR.

Why exactly do you think that economist put such a strong value (among other things) on unemployment rates, and why do you think corporations are outsourcing jobs to china etc.?

Do you have a job? Why doesn't it pay you a $Million a year? (in case it does, you never know who is on this board, why not a million dollars a day, or an hour?)

BECAUSE boys and girls you ARE a commodity and your employer has determined that YOUR value is $X! To a business you are NO different than the typewriter, office space, machinery or anything else they have to invest/purchase to run their business and make a profit. Your VALUE is calculated against your return for that company.
A brothel is no different! Your company can go out and hire illegal, undocumented workers
and they can and do treat them much worse then you who have rights!

Have you ever had to do something at work you didn't like, or the way you liked? Have you ever had to work with someone you didn't like, or had bad breath etc?

Well guess what! You are making the SAME exact choices that a prostitute makes, your standards/morals/ethics what ever are different and you're saying that you know better!
Now lets say you are working at your job as and your boss comes up and grabs your ass.
If you are a legal employee you can do sh8 about it. What can you do if you are an illegal locked up ina sweatshop???? What you are argueing for is to keep all employees illegal with no rights when you say that prostitution should be illegal.


Meg, YOU keep asking for evidence about better, safer conditions etc by legalization - yet I notice you have ignored my posting to EXACTLY that evidence in Nevada. Also please NOTE that I am vehemently against human trafficing for ANY reason be it prostitution or sweatshop labor but THIS IS ENTIRELY a different crime from prostitution and you need to stop mixing the 2!

 

[Island Skeptic]

Look, I'm sorry, but all the jumping up and down about the immorality of it just isn't aiding your cause. It isn't called "the world's oldest profession" for nothing.

"World's oldest profession" is the worst cliche' defense for prostitution. I can't believe you even said it... *snicker*

Ever since Eve saw Adam's reaction to her nudity, some women have realised that they were sitting on a goldmine.

Who is Adam and Eve? And how do you know what women thought ever since this person "Eve" saw "Adam's" "reaction to her nudity?"

Nowadays, as no doubt in Noah's days, some women are forced into prostitution through slavery or economic necessity.

Who is "Noah?" And please support evidence of you assertion that "some women (were) forced into prostitution through slavery or economic necessity" during the days of this person "Noah."

Whether it is legal or not it will not go away.

African-American slavery went away, despite the fact that some even wished to continue serving their "owners."

Blaming men is also pointless - how are you going to stop them?

Blaming men is pointless? Men are the primary reason (the primary demand) for the existence of prostitution and other sex 'industries'! Without the demand, there would be no sex industry!

How to stop them? Simple:

• Standing up against mass media and demanding that the sexualization of degradation, subordination, sexism and violence against women and children is stopped.
• Educating men, most effectively during childhood, that women are not 'sex toys' or 'commodities', and that they are to be respected and treated equally as men.

At least legalisation gives the woman increased protection.

Please provide evidence to support your claim. So far, the evidence posted has pointed in the complete opposite direction.

To be perfectly frank, I find most female opposition to prostitution to be "I know what's best for you" wrapped up in righteous indignation that a woman should choose to anything she damn well likes with her vagina. Most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers!

Please provide evidence for your claim that "most of the women against prostitution are also pro-lifers."

I am not a pro-lifer, nor is any other woman that i know who is against porn or prostitution.

Curiosity question: Do you live in the bible-belt or some place similar? If so, that might explain some of the assertions you have made, and some of the language you tend to use (i.e. "righteous indignation".... )

 

[GStan]

Blaming men is pointless? Men are the primary reason (the primary demand) for the existence of prostitution and other sex 'industries'! Without the demand, there would be no sex industry!

How to stop them? Simple:

• Standing up against mass media and demanding that the sexualization of degradation, subordination, sexism and violence against women and children is stopped.
• Educating men, most effectively during childhood, that women are not 'sex toys' or 'commodities', and that they are to be respected and treated equally as men.

Do you have any evidence that it is even possible to 'educate men' out of their natural biological attraction to women? (Which, by the way, is what ensures the propagation of our species.) The two solutions you proposed to 'stop demand' would not necessarily stop demand at all, but at best, might make men feel guilty about having this natural biological attraction.

 

[Michael C]

Do you have any evidence that it is even possible to 'educate men' out of their natural biological attraction to women? (Which, by the way, is what ensures the propagation of our species.) The two solutions you proposed to 'stop demand' would not necessarily stop demand at all, but at best, might make men feel guilty about having this natural biological attraction.

Jaana isn't proposing to educate men out of their natural biological attraction to women. She's proposing to educate men to respect women.