Should prostitution be legalized?

Should prostitution be illegal?

  • Yes, it is an offense against God and man.

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • Yes, it is a gateway to other bad behaviors.

    Votes: 5 2.9%
  • No, it should be legalized and regulated for disease control.

    Votes: 127 74.3%
  • No, it should be decriminalized and unregulated.

    Votes: 24 14.0%
  • On Planet X, we have pleasure-bots and don't need prostitutes.

    Votes: 13 7.6%

  • Total voters
    171
  • Poll closed .
A John already infected with AIDS or some other STD won't object to penetration. And how's the prostitute to know he's infected?

The risks are lessened by the maximum amount when safe sex is practised and prostitution is legal and regulated.

I agree with meg: if legal prostitution is to work at all, both prostitutes and clients need to be tested for STDs. If this isn't done, the whole thing backfires:

"In 1986, the Victorian Labour government legalized brothels, claiming crime would be eliminated, prostitutes' lives would be made safer, and there would be fewer health risks. None of this happened.

Organized crime had a field day in Victoria, with gangs fighting for control of the sex and drug trades with four or five gang leaders controlling the entire prostitution "industry". Sexually transmitted diseases (STD) and AIDS increased. This was due to the fact that medical authorities examined only one of the partners in the sex act, which was self-defeating."

(see http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/2005_mar_apr/article_6.html)

But you left out the important last sentence in the paragraph you quoted:

The number of street prostitutes increased because legislation gave legitimacy to the idea that sex is acceptable outside of close relationships.

Next...

So I see no reason why your daughter could not be both!

Now that's just cruel.

I do not argue this is always the case but to suggest that the reality is empowering or that people can just earn college money and then leave was not true for that woman at least.

This was a prostitute working legally or illegally? How would her situation have differed (other than earning a lot less money) if the only job she could get was a night-shift cleaner at a hospital?

For those of you who have said you do not mind if your daughters become prostitutes may I ask if you are equally sanguine about raising your grandchildren and explaining to them that this is because their mother had been "empowered"?

Ooh! I know, why don't I introduce a really, really irrelevant strawman!

Ah, but you have forgotten that the only thing making them expensive currently is because they are illegal.

Nope. Prices have on average probably dropped by 10-20%.

Evidence?
You're not thinking very hard, Atheist, if you can't think of any reasons why a brothel owner wouldn't prefer slaves to indepedent, law savvy employees. Trafficking into the Netherlands has increased since they legalized prostitution. They are engaging in big $$ programs now to attempt to combat it.

Well, I did give you the obvious one - why look to slightly improved gains at the expense of jail? Sure, some people will try it, but the same or worse may have happened without the legality. Holland is also a somewhat special case due to sex tourism.

Prostitution is legal in many countries. If legalised prostitution was a worse option than keeping it illegal, there seems to be a very small number of facts to support that idea. Not to mention that what your data tells us is that the regulation of the industry is suspect rather the industry itself.

Again, do you have some evidence that legal brothels make the profession safer for the prostitutes? Please show it.

From the above Bulgaria article:

Well, you've forced me to simply trump your single Bulgarian anecdote with the entire New Zealand Prostitutes' Collective!

As the money she has earned illegally is unknown to assistance agencies, she still is as eligible for assistance as any other woman with no income.

Whoa! I hope you meant what you said there - you're saying it's better for the woman to break the law, because then she can compound the crime by claiming welfare at the same time!

Have you ever asked her if she could have earned the money to help her turn her life around doing something other than prostitution, would she have?

Yes indeed. She credits the support of her fellows hookers with being a huge part of it. Whether that could have been replicated, the answer is probably yes, so if you're happy to bet her life that you would have turned her around another way, keep going.

And many hooker stories are filled with violence and abuse. Are you prepared to deal realistically with that?

Decriminalization of prostitution by itself does nothing to better the lives and working environments of those that do it, nor does it combat the very real problem of human trafficking. Only laws specifically aimed at protecting prostitutes will protect prostitutes. Only laws specifically aimed at human traffickers will stop human trafficking.

Rubbish. We have laws that protect against assault and trafficking that exist in sufficient strength to be able to deal with them. That they don't is not the problem of legalised prostitution. This has so many similarities to abortion or marijuana debates; "if one, then the other..." Life doesn't usually work in the neat little compartments we like. Prostitution isn't going to go away - legalising it, just as marijuana and abortion have, enables regulation to be imposed. If the system doesn't work, is it because the system is being applied incorrectly, or because it's flawed in itself?

If you want to argue for legalization of prostution, I want to hear what proposals you would make that actually would help to stop the abuses that occur. I hear you that you think anyone that wants to be a prostitute should be able to be one. I think that's fine, actually. What I think is a more fundamental human right, though, is that no one should be prostituted against their will. And no one should have to prostitute themselves to survive.

Here, we agree entirely. The proposal for stopping abuse already exists, it just isn't being applied.
 
Evidence?
You're not thinking very hard, Atheist, if you can't think of any reasons why a brothel owner wouldn't prefer slaves to indepedent, law savvy employees. Trafficking into the Netherlands has increased since they legalized prostitution. They are engaging in big $$ programs now to attempt to combat it.

Bulgaria moves away from legalizing prostitution
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/05/america/bulgaria.php

"Paying for Servitude: Trafficking in Women for Prostitution in Australia"
http://cpcabrisbane.org/Kasama/2004/V18n1/Servitude.htm

You seem to be confusion causation with correlation here. The reason that illegal trafficking exists is one of DEMAND not legal/illegality. Just as with any product when demand is high production has to ramp up to supply the goods in demand. The people who run these business JUST LIKE ANY OTHER business that provided goods or services, have the option to do things legally or illegally. It's almost always easier to do it illegally.

BUT this has NOTHING to do with the particular product in questions - whether we're talking about bootleg software or DVDs from China or prostitutes from Bulgaria. Under your reasoning we should ban both software and DVD's since there are people selling it illegally.

Funny how the US movie and music industry opted for more regulation and legal channels.

Again, do you have some evidence that legal brothels make the profession safer for the prostitutes? Please show it.

Again I refer you to the Bunny Ranch http://www.bunnyranch.com/main.php and the state of Nevada where brothels in certain counties
http://www.sex-in-nevada.com/ib/main.html have been legal since 1967
 
On the topic of STD testing:

Are none of you aware of the important fact that, in the case of HIV, there is a window period between the initial time of infection and detection of the virus????

Yep, I even mentioned it.
 
I voted Planet X option, because none of my concerns seem to be addressed in any of the voting options.

While there may indeed be some percentage of prostitutes that chose the profession of their own complete and informed free will out of many possible professions available to them, there is also a percentage of prostitutes that were and are coerced into the job.

What would legalization of prostitution do to help those women?

When I hear arguments for legalization and regulation of prostitution for "disease control", it seems that usually people are just talking about testing the prostitutes for STDs. The assumption seems to be that the client has some right to purchase disease free sex. Shouldn't the sex worker have that same right? In the U.S., more and more cities are going "smoke free" on the grounds that workers' health is endangered by passive smoke inhalation. They are not given the option to "choose" whether they're willing to risk it or not, the government wants to look after us. Shouldn't we look after our sex workers with the same level of concern? It seems to me that the clients should have to show themselves to be disease free prior to being permitted to partake of the "services".

If prostitution is legalized and considered a legitimate profession, should a woman be denied unemployment, welfare, or any other kind of social assistance if she refuses to apply for work at the local brothel?

If prostitution is legalized and considered a legitimate profession, will there be less societal motivation to provide job training, assistance or education to poor women? Would pretty women be denied scholarships or educational assistance because they could (or should?) hook their way through college?

FYI - As far as I know (not from pesonal experience, but second hand) the girls in at least the brothels in NV have the right to demand that they as well as the John wear protection! If the john doesn't agree the girl can press a panic button that summons a very BIG, burly and sadistic biker (in the case of my second hand reference) who will take great pleasure in kicking the snot out of the john while the local police arrive. tell me where that's going to happen when you're dealing with an illegal transaction in some/most shady parts of town in the back seat of the johns car.
 
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Originally Posted by meg
If you want to argue for legalization of prostitution, I want to hear what proposals you would make that actually would help to stop the abuses that occur. I hear you that you think anyone that wants to be a prostitute should be able to be one. I think that's fine, actually. What I think is a more fundamental human right, though, is that no one should be prostituted against their will. And no one should have to prostitute themselves to survive.

Sorry I am doing this in bits and peaces but I want to address some of these fallacies point by point and the thread is moving pretty fast.
You are again mixing apples and oranges.
Prostitution is defined as "The giving or receiving of the body for sexual activity for hire"
some states and countries may define it slightly differently but this pretty much covers it. The act of forcing someone to do something against their will - whether it's sex or doing the dishes - is coercion, kidnapping enslavement or possibly several other crimes and is entirely separate from prostitution.
 
You seem to be confusion causation with correlation here. The reason that illegal trafficking exists is one of DEMAND not legal/illegality. Just as with any product when demand is high production has to ramp up to supply the goods in demand. The people who run these business JUST LIKE ANY OTHER business that provided goods or services, have the option to do things legally or illegally. It's almost always easier to do it illegally.

BUT this has NOTHING to do with the particular product in questions - whether we're talking about bootleg software or DVDs from China or prostitutes from Bulgaria. Under your reasoning we should ban both software and DVD's since there are people selling it illegally.


Uh. Except we're not talking about products here. We're talking about human beings. I suspect that's the whole problem, really; people equating other human beings to objects that can be demanded, bought, stolen or used, like software or cheap dvds.

I'd say that's your causation, right there.
 
The Atheist said:
This was a prostitute working legally or illegally? How would her situation have differed (other than earning a lot less money) if the only job she could get was a night-shift cleaner at a hospital?

Grey area. The police were "tolerating" prostitution if it was not actually legal. I am not sure to be honest but they were not arresting routinely and still are not.

The situation would have differed because there would have been less violence around: and she probably would not have been working at home.

The Atheist said:
Ooh! I know, why don't I introduce a really, really irrelevant strawman!

I do not see it is irrelevant. And I cannot see how a question can be a strawman. But suit yourself
 
That is a good point

Legal and appropriate welfare voucher scheme....please :)

What! That is going down the slippery slope to socialized prostitution! The Free Market guarantees us the best quality prostitutes in the world! Canada is running out of prostitutes because of their socialized system. If you are surprised at how expensive prostitution is, just wait until it's free.
 
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Uh. Except we're not talking about products here. We're talking about human beings. I suspect that's the whole problem, really; people equating other human beings to objects that can be demanded, bought, stolen or used, like software or cheap dvds.

I'd say that's your causation, right there.

I am not an object? And you aren't selling people, that's slavery. You are selling services.
 
Interesting editorial in the NY Times about this very subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
We’re not going to end the world’s oldest profession, any more than we’ll ever end the world’s oldest crime, murder. But mounting evidence from around the world suggests that a demand-side crackdown would drive some pimps to peddle pirated DVDs instead of pubescent flesh — and that would be a positive legacy of Governor Spitzer’s tenure that might balance its tawdry hypocrisy.
 
I am not an object? And you aren't selling people, that's slavery. You are selling services.

Just like massage, or exotic dancing. Prostitution hurts no one, except those who participate in it (occupational hazard, to be regulated by OSHA). It's a service people want to buy, and there will always be someone willing sell it.
 
The risks are lessened by the maximum amount when safe sex is practised and prostitution is legal and regulated.
The risks are only lessened by the maximum amount if both the prostitutes and the clients are tested for STDs.

But you left out the important last sentence in the paragraph you quoted:

The number of street prostitutes increased because legislation gave legitimacy to the idea that sex is acceptable outside of close relationships.

That sentence isn't even in the paragraph I quoted: it's in the next paragraph. It doesn't alter anything said in the paragraph it follows, which I now quote in its entirety:

"Organized crime had a field day in Victoria, with gangs fighting for control of the sex and drug trades with four or five gang leaders controlling the entire prostitution "industry". Sexually transmitted diseases (STD) and AIDS increased. This was due to the fact that medical authorities examined only one of the partners in the sex act, which was self-defeating. Also, favourable medical results provided a false sense of security to clients, prostitutes and controllers. Medical examinations also provoked hostility and decreased cooperation from prostitutes who moved around too often to be monitored. If one did become infected with a sexually transmitted disease, another prostitute would replace her for the medical check up, using the infected woman's medical card."
 
The risks are only lessened by the maximum amount if both the prostitutes and the clients are tested for STDs.

As noted above in several places, that's a poor argument, mainly because testing is irrelevant, it's the practising of safe sex which lessens risk.

That sentence isn't even in the paragraph I quoted: it's in the next paragraph. It doesn't alter anything said in the paragraph it follows, which I now quote in its entirety:

Next paragraph, same paragraph, it's in the same story, which is the relevant part.

Do you really expect a site to be taken seriously when it promotes:

The number of street prostitutes increased because legislation gave legitimacy to the idea that sex is acceptable outside of close relationships.

See that? It quite clearly says that the only place for sex is in close relationships. When a site purporting to be factual in content supports absurd notions like the above, they lose all credibility with me. The other problem is that the argument has already been covered as well. If there are problems with the enforcement of anti-crime laws in prostitution, how is that the prostitutes' fault? The problem is in the police and law agencies which allow the criminal element to flourish.

Or maybe you didn't see this bit in your own link:

There is evidence for the corruption of police, the magistracy, the judiciary, lawyers and politicians in relation to prostitution in some published sources and in the Royal Commission reports (Hoser, Raymond, Victoria Police Corruption, 1999; Bottom, Bob, The Godfather in Australia, 1988). In Victoria and in New South Wales there is evidence to suggest that the practice of giving hotshots (heroin overdoses) has been used by police involved in the prostitution industry to eliminate troublesome women (Ibid and Evidence to Wood Commission 1997).

I guess you're going to blame the hookers for that, too?
 
Legalize and regulate. Why are we still criminalizing 'moral' crimes? The worst thing anyone who commits a victimless crime should get is psychological counseling, not jail time.
 
All consumers of pornography, prostitution, strip clubs, and other "sex trades" are directly to blame for the thousands of victims of human trafficking because they create the demand that is necessary for this industry to thrive.

Mule fritters. The above statement has no basis in reality whatsoever. Watching a porno, going to a strip club, or getting nookie at some brothel in nevada in no way supports or creates any "demand" for human trafficking.
 
All consumers of pornography, prostitution, strip clubs, and other "sex trades" are directly to blame for the thousands of victims of human trafficking because they create the demand that is necessary for this industry to thrive.


If we are going to be this ridiculous... why not include Hooters Girls as the bunch of buffalo style hot-sauce covered flesh peddlers they really are?
 
What! That is going down the slippery slope to socialized prostitution! The Free Market guarantees us the best quality prostitutes in the world! Canada is running out of prostitutes because of their socialized system. If you are surprised at how expensive prostitution is, just wait until it's free.

No Wai! :eek:

Equal access to the fundamental necessities of life is an essential hall mark of any civilised society.
 
Here's an article from the U.S. Department of State

The Link Between Prostitution and Sex Trafficking
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm
Prostitution and related activities—including pimping and patronizing or maintaining brothels—fuel the growth of modern-day slavery by providing a façade behind which traffickers for sexual exploitation operate.

Where prostitution is legalized or tolerated, there is a greater demand for human trafficking victims and nearly always an increase in the number of women and children trafficked into commercial sex slavery.

Of the estimated 600,000 to 800,000 people trafficked across international borders annually, 80 percent of victims are female, and up to 50 percent are minors. Hundreds of thousands of these women and children are used in prostitution each year.

Women and children want to escape prostitution
The vast majority of women in prostitution don’t want to be there. Few seek it out or choose it, and most are desperate to leave it. A 2003 study first published in the scientific Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape.[1] And children are also trapped in prostitution—despite the fact that international covenants and protocols impose upon state parties an obligation to criminalize the commercial sexual exploitation of children.

Prostitution is inherently harmful
Few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as prostitution. Field research in nine countries concluded that 60-75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70-95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for post traumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans[2] and victims of state-organized torture.[3] Beyond this shocking abuse, the public health implications of prostitution are devastating and include a myriad of serious and fatal diseases, including HIV/AIDS.

A path-breaking, five-country academic study concluded that research on prostitution has overlooked "[t]he burden of physical injuries and illnesses that women in the sex industry sustain from the violence inflicted on them, or from their significantly higher rates of hepatitis B, higher risks of cervical cancer, fertility complications, and psychological trauma."[4]

State attempts to regulate prostitution by introducing medical check-ups or licenses don’t address the core problem: the routine abuse and violence that form the prostitution experience and brutally victimize those caught in its netherworld. Prostitution leaves women and children physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually devastated. Recovery takes years, even decades—often, the damage can never be undone..

If you want to argue that the only women in prostitution are there by their own choice, there's a lot of evidence that says otherwise. What's your evidence? Choice is not the word I would use to describe a woman that becomes a prostitute out of fear, hoplelessness, desperation, or a lack of alternatives. A genuine consent, a genuine choice is only possible if a person has a sense of physical safety, a sense of equality with customers, and some real alternatives to choose.

If you want to argue that your own demand for prostitution doesn't increase the demand for human trafficking for sexual exploitation, there's a lot of evidence that says otherwise. What's your evidence? It sounds a lot to me like saying "I buy drugs, but I don't support the drug trade."

If you want to argue that the increase of human trafficking for the purpose of prostitution to places where prostitution is legal is somehow just coincidental, well, you've got blinders on.

If you want to pretend that the women coerced into prostitution aren't also coerced into stripping or making porn, or any other activity there is a "demand" for, and that your own use of porn or strip clubs isn't part of that demand, the go ahead and pretend. It doesn't make it true, though.

We have laws against people selling their own organs for money. Not just because of the morality of buy or selling people's own body parts, but because if there is a market for body parts, a supply of body parts will rise to fill it, and the supply won't come from rich white americans making free choices about what to do with their own bodies. It will come from disempowered desperate people. It will come from people bullied into doing it. It will come from people murdered for their kidneys.

I think the same goes for prostitution. If we say it's ok for a woman to profit by selling her own body, there are a great number of unscrupulous people that then find a way to profit from controlling and selling womens' bodies.

This is no more a "service industry" than the enslavement of African Americans was a "service industry".

And for what? For a bit of "fun". So men with enough money in their pocket can play out whatever fantasy they wish in order to ejaculate. You laugh and make jokes about Jaana's comment, but I think she's right. Supporting any form of the sex "industry" is directly supporting human trafficking. Why is a man's ejaculation so important that whole industries are created to help him do it? Why is _any_ woman beaten, abused, or treated poorly in any way so that a man can ejaculate?

Why does anyone tolerate this?

How is this civilized? How is this enlightened?
 

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