Addressing problems with the government's account

[thatsmystory]

I get some of the criticism of 9/11 truthers. What I don't understand is the seeming acceptance by some of the government's conduct in relation to investigating 9/11. For example, that some of the 9/11 Commission account was based on testimony derived from torture. That the Commission didn't get any access to the detainees. That the CIA destroyed interrogation tapes. That the Commission voted to keep supportive evidence classified until 1/09.

Some debunkers have suggested that after Bush leaves office the truth movement will go away or become a niche movement like the JFK assassination theorists. I don't understand this view. Every citizen should desire to know the truth about 9/11. If one finds 9/11 truth groups offensive or off course so be it. There are other avenues of pursuing official accountability.

 

[Reheat]

What gives you the impression that anyone accepts proven misbehavior by the Government? Some of the items you mention are fact, some are suspicions, and some not true at all unless you have substantial evidence. Let's have it up front.

 

[LastChild]

I get some of the criticism of 9/11 truthers. What I don't understand is the seeming acceptance by some of the government's conduct in relation to investigating 9/11. For example, that some of the 9/11 Commission account was based on testimony derived from torture. That the Commission didn't get any access to the detainees. That the CIA destroyed interrogation tapes. That the Commission voted to keep supportive evidence classified until 1/09.

Some debunkers have suggested that after Bush leaves office the truth movement will go away or become a niche movement like the JFK assassination theorists. I don't understand this view. Every citizen should desire to know the truth about 9/11. If one finds 9/11 truth groups offensive or off course so be it. There are other avenues of pursuing official accountability.

This is true. There are more things that need to be investigated about the events of 9/11 other then just whether or not it was an inside job.

 

[thatsmystory]

What gives you the impression that anyone accepts proven misbehavior by the Government? Some of the items you mention are fact, some are suspicions, and some not true at all unless you have substantial evidence. Let's have it up front.

For example, that some of the 9/11 Commission account was based on testimony derived from torture:

The 9/11 Commission suspected that critical information it used in its landmark report was the product of harsh interrogations of al-Qaida operatives - interrogations that many critics have labeled torture. Yet, commission staffers never questioned the agency about the interrogation techniques and in fact ordered a second round of interrogations specifically to ask additional questions of the same operatives, NBC News has learned.
Those conclusions are the result of an extensive NBC News analysis of the 9/11 Commission’s Final Report and interviews with Commission staffers and current and former U.S. intelligence officials.

deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx

That the Commission didn't get any access to the detainees:

After the 9/11 Commission becomes unhappy with the information it is getting from detainees in US custody who may know something about the 9/11 plot (see Summer 2003), the Commission asks CIA Director George Tenet to let them either talk to the detainees themselves, or at least view interrogations through a one-way mirror. However, Tenet denies the request because he does not want the Commission to know where the detainees are, and he claims questioning by a Commission staffer could apparently damage the “relationship” between interrogator and detainee and “upset the flow of questioning.”

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&investigations:_a_detailed_look=911Commission#a110504commissiondetaineeaccess

That the CIA destroyed interrogation tapes:

The CIA destroyed videotapes it made in 2002 of the interrogations of two top terror suspects because it was afraid that keeping them "posed a security risk," Director Michael Hayden told agency employees.

msnbc.msn.com/id/22139312/

That the Commission voted to keep supportive evidence classified until 1/09:

Commission records not already publicly available should be made available to the public, to the greatest extent possible consistent with the terms of this letter, beginning on January 2, 2009.

archives.gov/foia/9-11-commission-letter.pdf

 

[Good Lt]

For example, that some of the 9/11 Commission account was based on testimony derived from torture:



That the Commission didn't get any access to the detainees:



That the CIA destroyed interrogation tapes:



That the Commission voted to keep supportive evidence classified until 1/09:

How does any of this prove 9-11 was an inside job?

 

[leftysergeant]

All that the points raised in the OP would porve is that the last four years have represented an interregnum during which America was under the rule of a total kakiocracy. It does nothing to discount the possibilty that 19 angry Muslims thought that going kamikaze on our financial centers was a good way to contain that kakiocracy.

 

[Horatius]

This is true. There are more things that need to be investigated about the events of 9/11 other then just whether or not it was an inside job.

Yes, and if people of your ilk had spent the last several years addressing these issues, we wouldn't have put any effort into opposing you, and I suspect many of us would have supported you.

Instead we got 6 (now almost 7) years of "Pull it!" "hologram planes" "pods" "mini-nukes" "space beams" "cd" "explosives" "thermite" "thermate" "super-thermate" "nano-thermite" and all that other crap.

Good job.

 

[Myriad]

Yes, and if people of your ilk had spent the last several years addressing these issues, we wouldn't have put any effort into opposing you, and I suspect many of us would have supported you.

Instead we got 6 (now almost 7) years of "Pull it!" "hologram planes" "pods" "mini-nukes" "space beams" "cd" "explosives" "thermite" "thermate" "super-thermate" "nano-thermite" and all that other crap.

Good job.

And note that there's more involved here than just wasted effort on the truthers' part. By focusing on unjustified illogical "inside job" accusations, the truth movement has made it difficult if not impossible for any politician to speak out publicly against the kind of abuses and failures that the OP describes, without being embarrassingly associated with an obnoxious lunatic fringe. This is known as providing political cover.

In short: by falsely accusing them of things they obviously didn't do, you've helped them get away with all the things they did do.

The "neocons" in office should be very grateful to the truth movement for this favor, and I suspect that they are.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[LastChild]

And note that there's more involved here than just wasted effort on the truthers' part. By focusing on unjustified illogical "inside job" accusations, the truth movement has made it difficult if not impossible for any politician to speak out publicly against the kind of abuses and failures that the OP describes, without being embarrassingly associated with an obnoxious lunatic fringe. This is known as providing political cover.

In short: by falsely accusing them of things they obviously didn't do, you've helped them get away with all the things they did do.

The "neocons" in office should be very grateful to the truth movement for this favor, and I suspect that they are.

Respectfully,
Myriad

That exact type of cowardly tactic is used on daily bases right here in this forum.

All anyone has to do is disagree or find any fault at all with the official investigation and they are labeled a wacko conspiracy theorist and attacked as such. If there was any concerted effort at all (and there was) to discourage a full and thorough investigation into 9/11 then that qualifies as a conspiracy to cover-up the truth.

Debunkers do nothing but offer apologies and lame excuses for an obvious inadequate version of events into what led to the deaths of almost 3,000 people on 9/11. They discourage any further official inquiry for any reason at all not just whether or not 9/11 was an inside.

The debunkers need to reserve the right to call people names and pretend they are smarter or more patriotic then others trumps any need they may have ever had to search for the actual truth regarding 9/11.

 

[twinstead]

LC you offer apologies and lame excuses trying to protect the real hijackers and arrogantly pretend you are smarter or more patriotic than others DAILY on this forum. I'm going to send you a bill for my broken irony meter, thank you very much.

 

[WildCat]

For example, that some of the 9/11 Commission account was based on testimony derived from torture.

Even if you ignore that testimony entirely it would not change the conclusions of the 9/11 Commission in any material way. The evidence that it was an al Qaeda operation carried out by 19 hijackers is overwhelming.

Truthers aren't really interested in reforming the CIA - they think 9/11 was an "inside job", and they haven't been able to produce a single shred of evidence to support that. And they have lied continually, from day 1 of their "investigation".

 

[Myriad]

That exact type of cowardly tactic is used on daily bases right here in this forum.

That's what I said. The cowardly tactic of making blatantly and obviously false accusations of "inside job" and thus providing political cover to the Bush administration for all of its 9/11-related failures and miscues is used by Truthers on a daily basis on this forum.

All anyone has to do is disagree or find any fault at all with the official investigation and they are labeled a wacko conspiracy theorist and attacked as such.

No. Finding any fault at all with the official investigation and then implying that the fault is evidence of a 9/11 inside job is what gets one labeled a wacko conspiracy theorist here.

If there was any concerted effort at all (and there was) to discourage a full and thorough investigation into 9/11 then that qualifies as a conspiracy to cover-up the truth.

There, that's a good example.

Debunkers do nothing but offer apologies and lame excuses for an obvious inadequate version of events into what led to the deaths of almost 3,000 people on 9/11. They discourage any further official inquiry for any reason at all not just whether or not 9/11 was an inside.

The Truth Movement has discouraged any further official inquiry, by associating any call for such inquiry with the agenda of an irrational lunatic fringe that absolves terrorists of mass murder. This makes it political suicide for any U.S. politician who has (or aspires to) any public stature to support any further inquiry. That's the reality that you have helped to create.

I'm only bringing you the bad news. I'm sorry if you find that news discouraging. But it's what you come here for, isn't it? If all you want is someone to tell you impeachments, new investigations, international tribunals, and/or revolution are right around the corner, there are plenty of other sites you can go to.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[LastChild]

That's what I said. The cowardly tactic of making blatantly and obviously false accusations of "inside job" and thus providing political cover to the Bush administration for all of its 9/11-related failures and miscues is used by Truthers on a daily basis on this forum.




No. Finding any fault at all with the official investigation and then implying that the fault is evidence of a 9/11 inside job is what gets one labeled a wacko conspiracy theorist here.




There, that's a good example.




The Truth Movement has discouraged any further official inquiry, by associating any call for such inquiry with the agenda of an irrational lunatic fringe that absolves terrorists of mass murder. This makes it political suicide for any U.S. politician who has (or aspires to) any public stature to support any further inquiry. That's the reality that you have helped to create.

I'm only bringing you the bad news. I'm sorry if you find that news discouraging. But it's what you come here for, isn't it? If all you want is someone to tell you impeachments, new investigations, international tribunals, and/or revolution are right around the corner, there are plenty of other sites you can go to.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Oh I forgot one. Some debunkers merely use 9/11 conspiracy as an excuse to make apologies for the present crooked administration and distract from their illegal war.

 

[applecorped]

Oh I forgot one. Some debunkers merely use 9/11 conspiracy as an excuse to make apologies for the present crooked administration and distract from their illegal war.

..and some troooothers let emotion cloud their judgement so badly that they refuse to accept reality.

 

[Wartrac]

For example, that some of the 9/11 Commission account was based on testimony derived from torture:

And some people like myself don't see any issue with this at all. Some people like myself have been in situations in "certain coutries" and understand that this behavior is conducted against women and children by these people, and not to obtain information but to obtain control over groups of people. Some people like myself understand that this is the only thing that works against "fanatics" or "Warlords" or "Terrorists".

I believe there were mistakes prior to 9/11 regarding Intel. But at the sametime, mistakes happen at every level. This does not mean that there was a MIHIOP, LIHOP or an IHOP (for you pancake lovers).

I would rather see the money dumped back into the military than an investigation. I would rather see the money poured back into making sure that we do not have to deal with another act like 9/11 on our soil. I would rather dump the money back into making sure we cause harm onto people that would do us harm before they are given the chance.

You people need to start understanding that there is much more evil out there than what resides in the US gubmint. And you also need to understand we didn't "create it all? as CIA asset.

Sorry for the rant but this naive approach to the world gets on my nerves.

Sign a former Army Veteran and Son and Grandson of Veterans. Serving doesn't make me right, seeing things happening on the streets of various countries does. Let's say I had the chance to do a lot of "observing" around the world.

 

[Par]

Some debunkers merely use 9/11 conspiracy as an excuse to make apologies for the present crooked administration and distract from their illegal war.

Even if that were true, it’s conspiracy theorists such as yourself who have provided them with the requisite tools to have done so.

 

[cisco]

Oh I forgot one. Some debunkers merely use 9/11 conspiracy as an excuse to make apologies for the present crooked administration and distract from their illegal war.

Push a 9/11 lunatic far enough and it always comes back to the war. I hate the war too, I wish it never happened. I was against it from day 1 and I never voted for Bush. The difference between us, though, is that I won't lie about 9/11 and attempt to use it to my rhetorical advantage. I find such behavior beyond disgusting. Three thousand innocent people died, you pervert. Stop trying to exonerate their killers because you have beef with the government.

 

[Myriad]

The Truth Movement has discouraged any further official inquiry, by associating any call for such inquiry with the agenda of an irrational lunatic fringe that absolves terrorists of mass murder. This makes it political suicide for any U.S. politician who has (or aspires to) any public stature to support any further inquiry. That's the reality that you have helped to create.

Oh I forgot one. Some debunkers merely use 9/11 conspiracy as an excuse to make apologies for the present crooked administration and distract from their illegal war.

If you oppose the war, then why do you participate in a movement that makes opposition to the war more difficult? Why do you speak favorably of people who cost antiwar activists credibility and public sympathy, by showing up at antiwar protests to promote their own obviously irrational agenda?

Logically, if your movement is harming the antiwar effort, then you are either making a stupid mistake, or you support the war. It would be arrogant of me to suppose that you could possibly be making a stupid mistake. So, why do you support an illegal war? Is it out of fondness for the Bush administration? Do you hate Iraqis? Or do you just want to steal the oil?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Dr Adequate]

Push a 9/11 lunatic far enough and it always comes back to the war. I hate the war too, I wish it never happened. I was against it from day 1 and I never voted for Bush. The difference between us, though, is that I won't lie about 9/11 and attempt to use it to my rhetorical advantage. I find such behavior beyond disgusting. Three thousand innocent people died, you pervert. Stop trying to exonerate their killers because you have beef with the government.

What he said.

This is one of the biggest lies of the Twoofers, isn't it? They pretend that debunkers all support Bush and the war. And they know they're lying. Of course LC knows that he's lying. He's had his face rubbed into reality often enough to know that he's lying, and that we know he's lying, and that we know that he knows he's lying ...

 

[Alt+F4]

Push a 9/11 lunatic far enough and it always comes back to the war. I hate the war too, I wish it never happened. I was against it from day 1 and I never voted for Bush. The difference between us, though, is that I won't lie about 9/11 and attempt to use it to my rhetorical advantage. I find such behavior beyond disgusting. Three thousand innocent people died, you pervert. Stop trying to exonerate their killers because you have beef with the government.

Agreed. I never voted for Bush either, or any other Republican (ok, there was that incident in 1984...but I was young). I would support the impeachment of Bush for incompetence but that doesn't change the fact that it was 19 Islamic killers that murdered almost 3,000 people on 9/11.