Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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This is why I still check out Cryptomundo...

If I recall correctly, someone here once wanted to see what this costume would look like in motion at close range. For those not satisfied by the quality of the Sonoma film, there's this short comedy film. I've gotta say that the eyes look great; I wonder if the old "black makeup around the eyes" trick was used.

Speaking of the Sonoma film, I enjoyed the comments for this.
 
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Kitakaze:

"Quote:
"Thank you for your clarification. BTW, wouldn't the upper thigh represent apparent cloth fold artifacts? "

yes, thet weird thing on the upper thigh could be a cloth fold artifact, one possible option. No conclusion yet, on my part, but the cloth thing is a viable option in my mind right now.

Bill
So, that would change this...



Originally Posted by Bill Munns
For various issues of the figure in the PG Film, with regard to whether or not they could have been done with 1967 suit technology:

4. Fur surface capable of the anatomical motions of walking and head turning, with no apparent cloth fold artifacts. Undecided at present

...to a 'yes'. Correct?"


Kitakaze;

Incorrect. In my opinion, it is undecided, inconclusive. That's not a yes.

I have not studied the full film sequence for the second or two before that frame showing the bulge, and the second or two after that frame. With the feet and breasts, I can say unequivacally, yes, a suit could do that. With this bulge thing, I can't say that a suit piece or section can unquestionably account for the bulge, just that it's an option to look for and consider, once I have the necessary frame sequences to view it in motion.

Once I do that more detailed inspection of the thigh, I may find it inconsistant with anything I feel a suit part can account for, but right now, all I can say is, undecided.

So a "yes, absolutely, a suit can do that" is not being offered. A "Yes, maybe a suit piece could account for it but I haven't studied that particular segment to determine for sure yet", is the best I can do now.

I have to see it in motion, before I could say, "yes, a suit can do that.". Haven't seen it in full motion yet, or a full frame study of the same sequence.

So I repeat from my quotes above:


"No conclusion yet,"

and

"Undecided at present"
 
Kitakaze:

I stand corrected, in that I do have that frame sequence, and have just looked at the thigh element both frame by frame and in motion.

I see a background shadow in line with the bulge, and must consider that the fur shadows and the background shadows may be bleeding together, for the bulge frame still.

I also see a line along the thigh going upward on a slight diagonal which could be attributed to the thumb of the hand (fake or real) scraping the fur so it has that line in the fur lay.

So the line on the thigh may be a fur scraped ruffling of the hair lay (possible on either real or fake fur), but the bulge would seem to be more associated with the background shadows bleeding into the figure body image.

But it's still inconclusive to me, and I can't say with any certainty "yes, a suit can do the bulge" based on what I see."
 
I have not studied the full film sequence for the second or two before that frame showing the bulge, and the second or two after that frame. With the feet and breasts, I can say unequivacally, yes, a suit could do that. With this bulge thing, I can't say that a suit piece or section can unquestionably account for the bulge, just that it's an option to look for and consider, once I have the necessary frame sequences to view it in motion.

Until you can get a better source, you might be able to have some fun with this. Here's the .gif animation without the music. That animation admittedly has its problems, but I think it's a good placeholder for now.
 
kitakaze wrote:
So you won't be answering the questions I pointed out to you? That's understandable. You've been debating very poorly here. I can see how you'd like to forget about it. :wink:


Don't worry, kitty....I'll answer more of those questions..and I'll also post something to support what I've said about Patty's "realism".
 
Drewbot wrote:
Sweaty, I'm curious if Bill Munns view that Patty is within human proportions, has changed your wording of this claim? What about the clear demonstration that there is no evidence of finger movement?

Originally Posted by Sweaty Yeti:

If Patty's IM index is higher than a human's index....then it's very strong evidence that Patty is a real Bigfoot...because we can very clearly see her fingers bending in one part of the film.

Basically...if the arm is too long to be a human arm...and the fingers actually move....then it's a Bigfoot. Simple as that.


I haven't read what Bill's said about Patty's body proportions.
Can you provide some post numbers for that?

Also, what "clear demonstration that there is no evidence of finger movement" are you talking about? I haven't seen it.
 
I haven't read what Bill's said about Patty's body proportions.
Can you provide some post numbers for that?

That's very surprising. Why have you not read these things, Sweaty?

Here's a link to Munns' writing on the subject at BFF:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=21614

And here are his comments on the last couple pages you apparently missed:

For various issues of the figure in the PG Film, with regard to whether or not they could have been done with 1967 suit technology:

1. Feet and whitish color on them? Yes
2. Breasts (including any perceived motion)? Yes
3. Human fitting Inside ? Generally yes, but knees not verified as aligning yet.

A human head could apparently fit in Patty's head, as much as I have determined thus far. So it is an option.

Bill
You should show your math to Munns.
 
Don't worry, kitty....I'll answer more of those questions..and I'll also post something to support what I've said about Patty's "realism".
I believe you. Take your time and do your best.

You've been losing debates left, right, and center here so I'm sure it's hard to keep track but here are some things that you may want to keep in mind:

1) You've been relieved of the claim that there is strong evidence for bigfoot.

2) You've been relieved of the claim that you are not a believer.

3) You've been relieved of your erroneous explanation regarding why the Hoffman video is instantly recognizable as a man in suit.

There of course more but let's not stack your plate too high. If you need yet a further link to outstanding questions, feel free to ask.
 
Concerning these statements of Bill's....

3. Human fitting Inside ? Generally yes, but knees not verified as aligning yet.

Originally Posted by Bill Munns
A human head could apparently fit in Patty's head, as much as I have determined thus far. So it is an option.


....he could be right...but I'd have to see something of substance which supports that finding, in order for me to give it much value.

It's the same with anything anyone says in these threads....if it isn't supported with some analysis which can be seen, it's just somebody's opinion...and opinions, in and of themselves, are worth approx. 2 cents.
 
Concerning these statements of Bill's....
....he could be right...but I'd have to see something of substance which supports that finding, in order for me to give it much value.
Did you read his notes? Also, do you mean to say you have presented something of substance to give value to your claim? Woop, something coming to me now...

I plan on....some fine day...when I have the time to...:(...showing that a human head (in correct proportion to the body)...would barely, if at all, fit into the space available inside Patty's supposed suit.
I think it's obvious to see that there simply isn't enough space for any kind of a helmet...even a thinly padded one...to be on the head of whoever was supposedly inside the "suit". Patty's head is sharply sloped inward from all sides, leaving very little room for a head that has a straight vertical forehead, and sides.

Of course, until I can actually demonstrate that...it's only my opinion...and is worth a grand total of 2 cents. :)
But I plan on backing it up with something of substance.
You know what, Sweaty? You make a lot time to post excuses. Talk a lot of smack. Say "later" and "some day" a lot. You talk about having fun with skeptics yet can't seem to get a handle on a single debate. What I'm having a hard time coming up with is anything of substance you've offered to this discussion board in regards to your claims about bigfoot and the PGF.

Well, as I said, I'm sure Munns would love to hear your math. How about you bust out the protractor and MS Paint and show him some Sweaty analysis?
 
Did you read his notes? Also, do you mean to say you have presented something of substance to give value to your claim? Woop, something coming to me now...

C'mon. Sweaty drew a couple lines on a really blurry still-frame JPEG. What more could you possibly need?
 
Just a quick comment on the above discussions.

From my analysis, I can see a human head fitting inside Patty's head, but that analysis doesn't include a helmet of any kind. The human would be a snug fit. Any mask would need to be fitted well, and the prospect of any kind of helmet inside Patty's head would be more argumentative.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Bill
 
Bill,

Dfoot has a picture of what the inside of a gorilla suit head would looklike, and the inside looks like the same guts as an old football helmet. Of course when BobH, said that it was 'like an oldtime football helmet' Sweaty took that to mean Literally that there was an ACTUAL helmet inside the mask. If Dfoot could post the pic of the inside of the mask, you could see what was meant by 'like an oldtime football helmet.'
 
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Drewbot:

You are correct in pointing out that many masks, especially gorilla masks, to have a helmet-like structure to anchor the mask to a person's head, and provide a support for any animation mechanics, servo motors, cables, etc. which may have been built into the mask for facial animation.

More you add, the bulkier the head gets. But gorilla heads are massive, so they allow the room for such.

Bill
 
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My post directly above yours corrects that I did have the frame sequence and looked it over.

Darn, it looks like you posted that while I was still writing my post. Oh well. I guess I'd better combine this with another post I was planning in order to save space.

While going through some videos made by the company responsible for that King Kong-inspired birthday party that I used to discuss how camera distance can hide seams, I noticed that they had done a video inspired by the "Alien Autopsy." Although the slightly gory video was done as a tongue-in-cheek promotion of their Alien Autopsy party package, the fact that they almost nailed the look of the alien inspired me to look up more on the matter in order to see if any other recreation-type deals had been done. What I found might be of use in discussing the P/G footage, so I decided to post about it here.

First, I went to this site, which I had only briefly looked at in the past.

This page notes the occasional use of non-disclosure agreements in projects involving those in the special effects industry. This page not only gives Stan Winston's real opinion of the film (footage of him was apparently edited to make it seem as if he didn't think the footage was a hoax; it also seems that he might've been under the impression that the film was actually from the 40's when he first looked at it). I should note that it also gives the URL for Mr. Winston's website.

This page notes various signs in the film that point to it being a hoax and makes some notes about "hot frames" (which may or may not be of use in discussion of the P/G film). Finally, this page lists several alien autopsy "recreations." I suspect that the reason so many of the "recreations" don't look exactly like the subject of the Alien Autopsy film is due to fears of copyright infringement lawsuits. I remember back around the time the film had first been shown on TV, an episode of the show "Sightings" played some footage and noted that, if the footage really was authentic, then it being filmed by the government in the 40's would've made it automatically public domain and therefore they weren't paying for use of the footage. It wouldn't surprise me if they were bluffing, but it still amuses me to this day.

Some of you might remember how the man behind the footage (Ray Santilli) and the man who created the alien confessed in 2006. But, as you can see in this interview, the confession seems to have been done solely to promote a movie inspired by the hoax. Also, the "Okay, the film you saw was faked, but it was based on a real film that got mostly destroyed" is lauaghable (and, as Dfoot noted, strikingly similar to the story Frank Hansen gave about his Minnesota Iceman exhibit). I think that the various goofs highlighted by Trudang.com negate any claim that what little remained of the so-called original film was present in "Alien Autopsy." Well, that, and the fact that nobody can say for sure which frames are the "real" ones.

Similarly, there's the case of how an obscure indie movie called "UFO Abduction" was passed off as footage of a real alien abduction (without the creator's knowledge). If you watch this news report featuring clips from the film, you'll see people who really should know better arguing that some obviously fake footage is real.
 
Sweaty may have neither the time, inclination, or confidence to argue his 'head won't fit' idea to Bill Munns so I'll take the liberty to assist.

Sweaty has often argued that a human head will simply not fit into the dimensions of Patty's head thereby demonstrating that the subject is in fact a living bigfoot. The following are some of Sweaty's attempts to demonstrate the point which I am confident that he will appreciate any feedback Mr. Munns has to offer:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3458462#post3458462

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3106432#post3106432

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3104616#post3104616

I personally find the last link there to have the most impressive analysis. I mean, just look at this:

PGside3.jpg


Science, my friends. Science.
 
I just found something rather interesting. I've been looking at the MABRC to see if Sweaty made other 'head won't fit' demonstrations there. I found the following short six post thread regarding Patty's digits:

http://www.mid-americabigfoot.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2119&p=2732#p2732

He states the following:

Here's an interesting detail...the thumb seems a little short, compared to the length of the fingers...similar to the proportions of an ape's hand...

What I took particular note of was the fourth post by Sweaty in which he posts PGF images and makes claims regarding an apparent thumb. I found this interesting because the post was dated Dec. 23rd, 2007. This is significant because here at the JREF on Nov. 4th, 2007, member Mangler made a post for Sweaty proving to him that what Sweaty was claiming to be a thumb was in fact an illusion involving the background and lack of image quality. Here is a post I made summarizing the entire exchange:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3122165#post3122165

What's up with that? What's Sweaty doing talking about thumbs when he knows better? What are you doing there, Sweaty? Trying to slide one by? That doesn't seem very intellectually honest, does it?

BTW, in the final post made by Sweaty he says with confidence:

Well...we already knew that Roger was a genius, for building a suit that no-one has ever been able to duplicate. This is just more 'icing on the cake'!
Yeah, that's funny because Sweaty says stuff like that a lot but whenever I ask him the most relevant question regarding how many concerted efforts to duplicate the PGF and it's subject have been made, I get a whole lot of silence from him. He does like to constantly post an image from the BBC experiment that he knows was never intended to recreate the film or it's subject as though it in fact was. Of course then too, when asked to explain such disgenuine actions we get only silence from him.

Please note that Sweaty is listed as a Senior Analyst at the MABRC.

Apparently, for footers like Sweaty, intellectual dishonesty is an absolute necessity to maintain there positions. Geez, if I was a footer, I would shun people like Sweaty. Well, we know footers have shunned Sweaty.
 
kitakaze wrote:
whenever I ask him the most relevant question regarding how many concerted efforts to duplicate the PGF and it's subject have been made, I get a whole lot of silence from him. He does like to constantly post an image from the BBC experiment that he knows was never intended to recreate the film or it's subject as though it in fact was.


Yes...one of my faves....:)...the BBC recreation...

HaHaHaHaHaHa1.jpg



You have...yet again...falsely accused me of something, kitty.

I had originally read that the BBC video was an attempted "recreation" of the PG film...so I refered to it as such.
But it's irrelevant whether or not the BBC subject was intended to be a re-creation...a look-alike...of Patty. That hasn't been the key point in my posting that comparison image.

My point is....simply...it's a 'guy-in-a-suit'...and it's an obvious guy-in-a-suit, at that.

It literally screams "dude-in-a-suit"....as do these others...

...Alex...

Alex11.jpg



...Butch...

PattyandJoke3.jpg



...Bobo...

AnotherJoke1.jpg



...Bart...

Gsuit44b.jpg


...Hiram...

HH1.jpg


....Bob...

BOB1234.jpg



...and last, but not least......the O'Reilly's...:)...


gorilla3.jpg



The fact of the matter is....EVERY picture that you can find of a supposed Bigfoot, or a gorilla suit, which is clear enough to see body details (such as lengths and proportions) is oviously, beyond ALL doubt, a man-in-a-suit......except for Patty. Patty is, in sharp contrast....ambiguous.

As a result...we can confidently state that there is indeed a difference between the realism of Patty, and all the rest.
 
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