autism-vaccine link?

In the long term, yes. In the medium term (over 30 or so years after mass varicella vaccination) the risk is there will be an increase in the number of cases of Zoster because of the lack of boosting from exposure to the wild virus.
Is that what happens? I don't necessarily agree, I could argue that the initial infection is maintaining the immune response in the host rather than by additional exposures to circulating wild type virus.
 
Last edited:
Is that what happens? I don't necessarily agree, I could argue that the initial infection is maintaining the immune response in the host rather than by additional exposures to circulating wild type virus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

We present data to confirm that exposure to varicella boosts immunity to herpes-zoster. We show that exposure to varicella is greater in adults living with children and that this exposure is highly protective against zoster (Incidence ratio=0.75, 95% CI, 0.63-0.89). The data is used to parameterise a mathematical model of varicella zoster virus (VZV) transmission that captures differences in exposure to varicella in adults living with and without children. Under the 'best-fit' model, exposure to varicella is estimated to boost cell-mediated immunity for an average of 20 years (95% CI, 7-41years). Mass varicella vaccination is expected to cause a major epidemic of herpes-zoster, affecting more than 50% of those aged 10-44 years at the introduction of vaccination.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

BACKGROUND: The authors sought to monitor the impact of widespread varicella vaccination on the epidemiology of varicella and herpes zoster. While varicella incidence would be expected to decrease, mathematical models predict an initial increase in herpes zoster incidence if re-exposure to varicella protects against reactivation of the varicella zoster virus. METHODS: In 1998-2003, as varicella vaccine uptake increased, incidence of varicella and herpes zoster in Massachusetts was monitored using the random-digit-dial Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System. RESULTS: Between 1998 and 2003, varicella incidence declined from 16.5/1,000 to 3.5/1,000 (79%) overall with > or = 66% decreases for all age groups except adults (27% decrease). Age-standardized estimates of overall herpes zoster occurrence increased from 2.77/1,000 to 5.25/1,000 (90%) in the period 1999-2003, and the trend in both crude and adjusted rates was highly significant (p < 0.001). Annual age-specific rates were somewhat unstable, but all increased, and the trend was significant for the 25-44 year and 65+ year age groups. CONCLUSION: As varicella vaccine coverage in children increased, the incidence of varicella decreased and the occurrence of herpes zoster increased. If the observed increase in herpes zoster incidence is real, widespread vaccination of children is only one of several possible explanations. Further studies are needed to understand secular trends in herpes zoster before and after use of varicella vaccine in the United States and other countries.
 
You have described how you determined that the potential existed for sub-optimal choices. Can you tell me how you went on to determine that sub-optimal choices were made?

Linda

Reviewing their justifications for their policy decisions and watching as changes are made in recommendations over the years, including recalls.
 
Is your objection to ACIP or to vaccine advisory panels in general? What about those for Europe and Canada? I'm not sure if they come to the same conclusions about all the vaccines, perhaps Europe is delaying about Varicella.

The concerns are specific to the USA. I will say that I think the transparency laws that allow me to research their activities are crucial and I'm glad I live in a country that has them. I also think that if the ACIP actually adhered to the spirit of the regulations that cover government committee membership rather than seeking an excessive amount of waivers for their members, it's a fine system.
 
Last edited:
Thank you. So vaccination of adults might be needed as well for eradication.

Looks like it to me from my hodgepodge research. The latest from the CDC:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

OBJECTIVES: Exposure to varicella zoster virus through close contact with people with chickenpox was suggested to boost specific immunity, reducing the risk of herpes zoster (HZ). Since the introduction of the varicella immunization program in the US in 1995, varicella morbidity has decreased substantially. This article examines incidence and risk factors associated with self-reported HZ disease and whether exposure to chickenpox within the previous decade reduces the risk of shingles in this age group. METHODS: In 2004, a national random-digit dial telephone survey was used to obtain information on self-reported HZ disease, demographic characteristics, and exposure to children with chickenpox in the past decade. National estimates of the incidence of shingles disease were calculated. RESULTS: Incidence rate of self-reported HZ was 19 per 1,000 population per year. White individuals were 3.5 times more likely to report shingles than Hispanic individuals (p<0.01). Previous exposure to chickenpox did not protect against HZ disease in this population. Seven percent of adults > or =65 years of age reported exposure to children with chickenpox in the past decade. CONCLUSIONS: Incidence of HZ among individuals > or =65 years of age in the U.S. may be higher than previously described in the literature, with whites being at higher risk for the disease. Currently, the potential contribution of exposure to chickenpox as a mechanism for maintaining cell-mediated immunity against HZ may be limited to a small percentage of the population. Vaccination against HZ may represent the best means of decreasing this disease burden.
 
I think the issue is that knowledge/information isn't used to determine who should or should not be considered credible, as you have illustrated (depending upon whether you have an answer to the question I asked earlier).

That my husband occasionally travels on business trips by himself and that men sometimes cheat while on business trips does not mean that I have knowledge that my husband is cheating on me.

Linda

You have knowledge of your husband as well. This reminds me a question you asked earlier that I've given some thought to. I'm paraphrasing, but it was essentially "Why do the same people trust the medical profession in regards to treatments like brain surgery but not vaccines?"

I think there are two factors for that. One answer is that specific treatments are also geared to the individual, just as you evaluate the evidence for cheating on a business trip with your knowledge of your husband's personal habits, morality, preferences, etc. not just on the basis of possibilities. The other answer is that vaccines are a preventative measure, not a reactive one. Vaccines are rarely given the same kind of evaluation for a specific person by their personal physician as other treatments, but are based on recommendations are made for large groups by committee. If a government committee decided that all members of some large group should have some sort of preventative surgery, I would think the response would make the 'anti-vaxers' look like kids in sunday school.
 
Last edited:
<snip> <--- This is a clue to which 'preventative surgery' I'm thinking of.

If a government committee decided that all members of some large group should have some sort of preventative surgery, I would think the response would make the 'anti-vaxers' look like kids in sunday school.

Not necessarily. Just appeal to people’s paranoia about "dirty naughty bits" and you’ll have them queuing at their physician's door to have the offending piece of organ removed (even from anatomy books).
 
Linda, while I appreciate your wit and sense of humour, the following questions were serious and I'd like sensible answers to them, if you would be so kind. (How am I ever going to learn if you will not teach me?)

Is the Cochrane database a 'hodgepodge' of a source?

Yes. It is tightly constrained and doesn't include the bulk of the information that is relevant when considering these issues.

Is Tom Jefferson talking out of his ass when he questions the effectiveness of the seasonal flu vaccine?

I can't understand what this has to do with anything I have said.

Should I only trust sources which agree with your point of view?

Well, duh!

Linda
 
Reviewing their justifications for their policy decisions and watching as changes are made in recommendations over the years, including recalls.

How do you determine whether their justifications for their policy decisions are reasonable?

I don't understand how changing recommendations in light of new information reduces credibility.

Linda
 
Not necessarily. Just appeal to people’s paranoia about "dirty naughty bits" and you’ll have them queuing at their physician's door to have the offending piece of organ removed (even from anatomy books).

Thanks for the laugh. That particular surgery isn't mandatory though, so it seems that positive spin alone was sufficient to get the large majority of the population to comply.
 
Yes. It is tightly constrained and doesn't include the bulk of the information that is relevant when considering these issues.

Really?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

MAIN RESULTS: Forty-eight reports were included: 38 (57 sub-studies) were clinical trials providing data about effectiveness, efficacy and harms of influenza vaccines and involved 66,248 people; 8 were comparative non-randomised studies and tested the association of the vaccines with serious harms; 2 were reports of harms which could not be introduced in the data analysis.Inactivated parenteral vaccines were 30% effective (95% CI 17% to 41%) against influenza-like illness, and 80% (95% CI 56% to 91%) efficacious against influenza when the vaccine matched the circulating strain and circulation was high, but decreased to 50% (95% CI 27% to 65%) when it did not. Excluding the studies of the 1968 to 1969 pandemic, effectiveness was 15% (95% CI 9% to 22%) and efficacy was 73% (95% CI 53% to 84%). Vaccination had a modest effect on time off work, but there was insufficient evidence to draw conclusions on hospital admissions or complication rates. Inactivated vaccines caused local tenderness and soreness and erythema. Spray vaccines had more modest performance. Monovalent whole-virion vaccines matching circulating viruses had high efficacy (VE 93%, 95% CI 69% to 98%) and effectiveness (VE 66%, 95% CI 51% to 77%) against the 1968 to 1969 pandemic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA

MAIN RESULTS: Sixty-four studies were included in the efficacy / effectiveness assessment, resulting in 96 data sets. In homes for elderly individuals (with good vaccine match and high viral circulation) the effectiveness of vaccines against ILI was 23% (6% to 36%) and non-significant against influenza (RR 1.04: 95% CI 0.43 to 2.51). We found no correlation between vaccine coverage and ILI attack rate. Well matched vaccines prevented pneumonia (VE 46%; 30% to 58%), hospital admission (VE 45%; 16% to 64%) and deaths from influenza or pneumonia (VE 42%, 17% to 59%). In elderly individuals living in the community, vaccines were not significantly effective against influenza (RR 0.19; 95% CI 0.02 to 2.01), ILI (RR 1.05: 95% CI 0.58 to 1.89), or pneumonia (RR 0.88; 95% CI 0.64 to 1.20). Well matched vaccines prevented hospital admission for influenza and pneumonia (VE 26%; 12% to 38%) and all-cause mortality (VE 42%; 24% to 55%). After adjustment for confounders, vaccine performance was improved for admissions to hospital for influenza or pneumonia (VE* 27%; 21% to 33%), respiratory diseases (VE* 22%; 15% to 28%) and cardiac disease (VE* 24%; 18% to 30%); and for all-cause mortality (VE* 47%; 39% to 54%). The public health safety profiles of the vaccines appear to be acceptable.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA

MAIN RESULTS: Fifty-one studies involving 263,987 children were included. Seventeen papers were translated from Russian. Fourteen RCTs and 11 cohort studies were included in the analysis of vaccine efficacy and effectiveness. From RCTs, live vaccines showed an efficacy of 79% (95% confidence interval (CI) 48% to 92%) and an effectiveness of 33% (95% CI 28% to 38%) in children older than two years compared with placebo or no intervention. Inactivated vaccines had a lower efficacy of 59% (95% CI 41% to 71%) than live vaccines but similar effectiveness: 36% (95% CI 24% to 46%). In children under two, the efficacy of inactivated vaccine was similar to placebo. Thirty-four reports containing safety outcomes were included, 22 including live vaccines, 8 inactivated vaccines and 4 both types. The most commonly presented short-term outcomes were temperature and local reactions. The variability in design of studies and presentation of data was such that meta-analysis of safety outcome data was not feasible.



I can't understand what this has to do with anything I have said.

Because he questions the current policy in the US of promoting the flu vaccine for practically everybody.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7574/912

Gap between policy and evidence

The large gap between policy and what the data tell us (when rigorously assembled and evaluated) is surprising. The reasons for this situation are not clear and may be complex. The starting point is the potential confusion between influenza and influenza-like illness, when any case of illness resembling influenza is seen as real influenza, especially during peak periods of activity. Some surveillance systems report cases of influenza-like illness as influenza without further explanation. This confusion leads to a gross overestimation of the impact of influenza, unrealistic expectations of the performance of vaccines, and spurious certainty of our ability to predict viral circulation and impact. The consequences are seen in the impractical advice given by public bodies on thresholds of the incidence of influenza-like illness at which influenza specific interventions (antivirals) should be used.20

The confusion between influenza and influenza-like illness is compounded by the lack of accurate and fast surveillance systems that can tell what viruses are circulating in a setting or community within a short time frame, and after the "season" is finished give an accurate picture of what went on to enable better forecasting of future trends.21 Accurate surveillance must be based on a properly worked out sampling system for cases of influenza-like illness that meet set criteria, with accurate and quick feedback of a presumptive microbiological diagnosis. Without this, we cannot generalise from random sampling.

Another reason may be "availability creep." In their efforts to deal with, or be seen to deal with, policy makers favour intervention with what is available—registered influenza vaccines. A similar philosophy is the "we have to make decisions and cannot wait to have perfect data" approach. This attitude may have an altruistic basis but has two important consequences. Firstly, it uses up resources that could be invested in a proper evaluation of influenza vaccines or on other health interventions of proven effectiveness. Secondly, the inception of a vaccination campaign seems to preclude the assessment of a vaccine through placebo controlled randomised trials on ethical grounds. Far from being unethical, however, such trials are desperately needed and we should invest in them without delay. A further consequence is reliance on non-randomised studies once the campaign is under way. It is debatable whether these can contribute to our understanding of the effectiveness of vaccines. Ultimately non-randomised designs cannot answer questions on the effects of influenza vaccines.

Is he talking nonsense?

fls said:
Ivor said:
Should I only trust sources which agree with your point of view?
Well, duh!

That would certainly keep our conversations short, but don't you, ultimately, find it more satisfying to bend someone to you will over a longer period of time?
 
How do you determine whether their justifications for their policy decisions are reasonable?

I don't understand how changing recommendations in light of new information reduces credibility.

Linda

Because the changes they have made have generally been to what I decided was the better course of action based on my gleaning of information from various sources. Why is it they required 'new information' to come to the same decisions that I was able to deduce from less information than they had at the time? It's because I weighted the information I have differently than they did the information they had. Specifically, I weighted the risk of new vaccines higher than they did and I weighted the risk of vaccations of newborns higher than they did.

Some of this is understandable. I was concerned about my specific family, they were setting policy for a nation. But part of it is due to bias on the part of the committee because they have too many members with strong ties to the vaccine manufacturing industry. This can subtly affect things like how people weigh one risk versus another.

The end result: I feel I cannot trust their recommendations without extensive review on my own. I deeply resent this because IMO that is their entire purpose: to create policy recommendations that the citizens of this country can rely on.
 
You have knowledge of your husband as well.

Exactly. I am trying to discover whether that same kind of specific knowledge seems to play any role here. Our tendency would be to assume that it does, but as far as I can tell it's the other way round. Specific information is sought (or assumed) in order to justify a decision based on some other factors.

This reminds me a question you asked earlier that I've given some thought to. I'm paraphrasing, but it was essentially "Why do the same people trust the medical profession in regards to treatments like brain surgery but not vaccines?"

I think there are two factors for that. One answer is that specific treatments are also geared to the individual, just as you evaluate the evidence for cheating on a business trip with your knowledge of your husband's personal habits, morality, preferences, etc. not just on the basis of possibilities. The other answer is that vaccines are a preventative measure, not a reactive one. Vaccines are rarely given the same kind of evaluation for a specific person by their personal physician as other treatments, but are based on recommendations are made for large groups by committee. If a government committee decided that all members of some large group should have some sort of preventative surgery, I would think the response would make the 'anti-vaxers' look like kids in sunday school.

I don't think that's it. In my experience, people are also quite willing to second-guess treatments directed towards individuals (anti-depressants, for example). And there are many surgeries that are preventive rather than reactive that get barely any notice from the 'anti' crowd (cholecystectomy, for example).

Linda
 
Exactly. I am trying to discover whether that same kind of specific knowledge seems to play any role here. Our tendency would be to assume that it does, but as far as I can tell it's the other way round. Specific information is sought (or assumed) in order to justify a decision based on some other factors.



I don't think that's it. In my experience, people are also quite willing to second-guess treatments directed towards individuals (anti-depressants, for example). And there are many surgeries that are preventive rather than reactive that get barely any notice from the 'anti' crowd (cholecystectomy, for example).

Linda

:shrug: It was just a hypothesis. If it doesn't fit in your opinion, then feel free to continue looking for another cause.
 

Compare that to the information the ACIP gathered to consider the issue.

Because he questions the current policy in the US of promoting the flu vaccine for practically everybody.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7574/912

Is he talking nonsense?

What's that got to do with anything I've said?

That would certainly keep our conversations short, but don't you, ultimately, find it more satisfying to bend someone to you will over a longer period of time?

Does it matter?

Linda
 
Because the changes they have made have generally been to what I decided was the better course of action based on my gleaning of information from various sources. Why is it they required 'new information' to come to the same decisions that I was able to deduce from less information than they had at the time? It's because I weighted the information I have differently than they did the information they had. Specifically, I weighted the risk of new vaccines higher than they did and I weighted the risk of vaccations of newborns higher than they did.

Some of this is understandable. I was concerned about my specific family, they were setting policy for a nation. But part of it is due to bias on the part of the committee because they have too many members with strong ties to the vaccine manufacturing industry. This can subtly affect things like how people weigh one risk versus another.

The end result: I feel I cannot trust their recommendations without extensive review on my own. I deeply resent this because IMO that is their entire purpose: to create policy recommendations that the citizens of this country can rely on.

That's what I suspected. You used yourself as the 'gold standard' by which to assess the performance of the committee (without confirming the validity of that standard) and made assumptions which justified a decision you had already made. And this is pretty consistent with our understanding of how people make and justify their decisions. I think working with what people really do, rather than what they say they do (or what we think they could do under ideal circumstances), would be more fruitful - for example, presenting information in a way that allows someone to feel like they would have come to the same conclusion (some of what Skeptigirl was talking about earlier with risk assessment would be relevant). Someone asked me a few years ago if they should bank their infant's cord blood. If they do, ten years from now they'll be looking back on how much money they've wasted. If they don't, ten years from now they'll consider it a small price to have paid when it turns out their child has leukemia.

Linda
 
Compare that to the information the ACIP gathered to consider the issue.

Ok.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5606a1.htm?s_cid=rr5606a1_e

By my count (comparing like for like topics) I make it: ACIP ~169 studies vs. Cochrane: 163 studies.

What's that got to do with anything I've said?

Quite a lot. Let me rephrase the question: How am I to decide between experts like Tom Jefferson et al., who appear to think the current seasonal influenza vaccination policy in the US is based more on optimism and hope than the evidence, and the ACIP?

What I think I've done is looked at their respective conclusions, interpretations and sources of evidence, as well as reading discussions of articles in medical journals.

Do you think this is a reasonable strategy for trying to decide which experts are more likely to be correct? If not, how should I be making up my mind on these kind of issues?

Does it matter?

Linda

Well if you're trying to get people to do something (such as have a seasonal flu vaccination), conformity is a better result than compliance.
 
That's what I suspected. You used yourself as the 'gold standard' by which to assess the performance of the committee (without confirming the validity of that standard) and made assumptions which justified a decision you had already made. And this is pretty consistent with our understanding of how people make and justify their decisions.
How exactlly do you think I should evaluate the quality of their decisions rather than researching things for myself and seeing how often I agree with them? If I'm not going to use myself as the 'gold standard', what am I supposed to use to evaluate the quality of their decisions? You? Some other stranger on the internet?
I think working with what people really do, rather than what they say they do (or what we think they could do under ideal circumstances), would be more fruitful - for example, presenting information in a way that allows someone to feel like they would have come to the same conclusion (some of what Skeptigirl was talking about earlier with risk assessment would be relevant).
What's wrong with presenting the relevant information and allowing people to form their own conclusions rather than trying to 'make them feel they would have come to the same conclusion'? The former recognizes that different people have different criteria they use to make decisions while the second is pure manipulation. Why should I trust someone who trying to manipulate me to get me to do what they want me to do?
Someone asked me a few years ago if they should bank their infant's cord blood. If they do, ten years from now they'll be looking back on how much money they've wasted. If they don't, ten years from now they'll consider it a small price to have paid when it turns out their child has leukemia.
Linda

If we could predict the future perfectly, we would know the best actions to take now.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom