Some thoughts about the Mohammed Cartoons

[meg]

I'd be horrified if we treated their ideology with respect.

I don't think it's about treating an ideology with respect. It's about treating individuals with respect.

If we battle ideologies, we set ourselves up for group conflict. If we treat individuals with respect and seek change only in those places where the exertion of their individual rights conflicts with the exertion of our individual rights, then it's up to the individual to worry about whether that fits with their ideology or not.

 

[CFLarsen]

Excellent point Joe

Bumpety-bump.

If Allah choses who are his, why do you care what non-Muslims say about god?

That wasn't infantile, was it?

 

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

It was a comparison.

In Islam the teachings of the Prophet is everything. His words and actions guide all that we do 24/7/365.

We use his teachings in personal conduct, family life, marriage, personal finances, child raising, business dealings, etc.

Oh lordy I *hope not*!!

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

The above hadith is Sahih and Mutawatir. Let me know if you would like the duplicates. For the curious, Muhammad, Mr. Uswa Hasana (best example) was 51 & 54 respectively ^^^^^

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Also Sahih and Mutawatir.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who took an oath and then found another thing better than (this) should expiate for the oath (broken) by him and do (the better thing).

Again, Sahih and Mutawatir.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Again, Sahih and Mutwatir.

Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

I could really go all day on this...but if you are following this man's example, which, as Muslims, you are required to, then this belief system is incompatible with modern society. Please don't accuse me of "cherry picking" as it would only serve to demonstrate your own ignorance of the ahadith.

Women needing to cover up surely implies rather unsavoury things about the men in their community...

HAHA! Reminds me of the revelational circumstances of the hijab! LOL. Warning: don't read this if you are drinking near your keyboard!!

Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet)
'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to say to Allah's Apostle "Let your wives be veiled" But he did not do so. The wives of the Prophet used to go out to answer the call of nature at night only at Al-Manasi.' Once Sauda, the daughter of Zam'a went out and she was a tall woman. 'Umar bin Al-Khattab saw her while he was in a gathering, and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda!" He ('Umar) said so as he was anxious for some Divine orders regarding the veil (the veiling of women.) So Allah revealed the Verse of veiling. (Al-Hijab; a complete body cover excluding the eyes). (See Hadith No. 148, Vol. 1)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

So, Umar wanted Muslim women to be veiled, but his usual pestering of Muhammad wasn't working. He knew he had to make it personal to Muhammad in order to get this revealed from "Allah", therefore Umar decided to follow Muhammad's wives out to where they went to the toilet, and while they were going, call out and embarass them (Sawda specifically). Voila! Embarassment of Muhammad's wives = Revelation from Allah!

As a Muslim I can assure you that all Hadith is based on the Quran.

Who ever told you different is mistaken and misinformed.

Whoa! Is this shirk? SM are you elevating Muhammad to Allah's status there? Actually if you want to think critically about this, the Quran is based on the ahadith. As you know, the Quran was "revealed" over 23 years of Muhammad's life.. whenever Muhammad wanted something, down comes the verse(s) allowing him to do it. Therefore, the ahadith being accounts of Muhammad's words/actions and showing the revelational circumstances of the Quran - naturally precede any revelation from "Allah".

Therefore, the Quran is really based on the ahadith.

The rift between Sunni and Shia was origionally political.
A division between two camps over who was going to lead after the death of the Prophet.

Yes, the Battle of the Camel - in which 20,000 Muslims died from infighting.

Not at all.

Islam has a great intellectual history of socratic type of discourse.

But once again, it needs to be within the framework of decency and morality.

Really? Where? From reading the Islamic texts, all I can see is that Muhammad had all his detractors killed or enslaved... the only 'discourse' he took part in was mockery and satire against his detractors (until he was strong enough in numbers to annihilate them). Muhamad told his followers not to ask too many questions in case it caused disbelief!

To this day you see Islamic governments following suit - stifling free speech and even blocking websites that are critical of Isam (Faith Freedom International for one).

Where is this 'intellectual history' you speak of? Did it come from such gems as these?

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: The best places to sit are those which provide most room.

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: Do not eat with your left hand, for the Satan eats with his left hand.

This post is really too long already, but if you'd like some more I have heaps!! Actually, to see what a superior 'moral' example Muhammad was, this might just give you a laugh too! I'm sorry but from my studies, Islam is just a bastardization of Judaism and Christianity.

Thanks

-JP

PS: Sorry to tack this on the end here, but I would really like to know why you would follow a deity who describes himself as "the best deceiver"?

 

[Sunni Man]

Therefore, the Quran is really based on the ahadith.

For awhile I though you where half way intelligent about Islam.

Then you made the above statement.

I am a on a lot of forums about Islam. And that is the most "bizarre" thing I have ever heard. Period!

Just curious; what anti-Islamic site did you get this stuff from?

To the gulible and misinformed, it sounds like it could be right.

To someone who knows better, it's just a bunch of nonsense strung together to sound logical.

 

[Mark the Hiker]

I don't know what "Anti Islamic site" he got that stuff from, but I had no problem finding Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220 on the web site of the Muslim Students Association at the University of Southern California.

I am not a frequent poster, so I cannot yet post links. However, anyone can do the following:

1. Search Google for msa usc hadith
2. Select USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
3. Search for the word "victorious" - there will be quite a few hits, but select the one labeled 004.052.220

I quote:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).


Likewise, search for "aisha", and find 007.062.064 in the list.

 

[Sunni Man]

I don't know what "Anti Islamic site" he got that stuff from, but I had no problem finding Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220 on the web site of the Muslim Students Association at the University of Southern California.

I am not a frequent poster, so I cannot yet post links. However, anyone can do the following:

1. Search Google for msa usc hadith
2. Select USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
3. Search for the word "victorious" - there will be quite a few hits, but select the one labeled 004.052.220

I quote:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).


Likewise, search for "aisha", and find 007.062.064 in the list.

The MSA is a good organization and you can trust the information on their sites.

btw Welcome Mark!

 

[Mark the Hiker]

I was also able to confirm the quote from Aisha:

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).




Lest you claim this quote was taken out of context, I must point out that there is absolutely no context that can make this behavior on the part of Mohammad acceptable.

(ETA
Oh, but the Koran says this about the perpetrator:
033.021
YUSUFALI: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
PICKTHAL: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
SHAKIR: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

 

[CFLarsen]

The MSA is a good organization and you can trust the information on their sites.

btw Welcome Mark!

And welcome back to you!

If Allah choses who are his, why do you care what non-Muslims say about god?

That wasn't infantile, was it?

 

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

For awhile I though you where half way intelligent about Islam.

ad hominem so soon?

Then you made the above statement.

I am a on a lot of forums about Islam. And that is the most "bizarre" thing I have ever heard. Period!

Just curious; what anti-Islamic site did you get this stuff from?

lol! I post on a few anti-Islamic sites (user: Sanitarium)....although I NEVER 'get' information from them. I spend my time studying the Quran, the tafseer & ahadith. If you have a problem with anything I have posted/stated, then your problem is with your own texts and not with me.

I must say your attempt to discredit me by implying that I have merely 'copy/pasted' off "anti Islamic sites" is quite unfounded. I am perfectly capable of holding my own in a debate with a Muslim - and am able to refute much of the dawa-ganda going around. Perhaps it would be good for you to refute my arguments instead of attacking me?

Consider these questions:
1. Was the Quran a series of "situational revelations" "sent down" over 23 years of Muhammad's life in response to events centering around Muhammad/Muslims?
2. Do Muslims believe the Sahih ahadith record these situations (ie. <this> happened and then <this verse(s)> was/were sent down regarding it)? Hint: look here, here, here or here for example
3. Doesn't this mean the Quran (response to) is based on the ahadith (the events of Muhammad's/Muslims lives at the time)?

Where have I misunderstood the ahadith here?

To the gulible and misinformed, it sounds like it could be right.

To someone who knows better, it's just a bunch of nonsense strung together to sound logical.

I can't help but notice that you have not refuted ANYTHING that I have written, instead choosing to attack me and not my argument.


Why is that?

@Mark the Hiker: welcome and thanks for your posts! I usually use USC: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/ for my studies. Click on "Hadith search" and then the name of the collection to more accurately find the referenced hadith. I always provide a complete cite to facilitate fact checking. You may be disgusted to learn that many of Muhammad's behaviours (ie. Paedophilia) are also sanctioned in the Quran. This is useful to know in case you find yourself talking with an ahadith rejector.

 

[Nogbad]

I was also able to confirm the quote from Aisha:

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).




Lest you claim this quote was taken out of context, I must point out that there is absolutely no context that can make this behavior on the part of Mohammad acceptable.

(ETA
Oh, but the Koran says this about the perpetrator:
033.021
YUSUFALI: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
PICKTHAL: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
SHAKIR: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

This has been discussed before and although we may be shocked by such a marriage arrangement one has to ask how unusual was it for the period and the culture? If it was not shocking at the time then we cannot accuse him of criminal or perverse behaviour.

Obviously one can question the relevance and desireability of perpetuating any medieval notion into a modern world (social, criminal justice or whatever). Indeed if we still held on to our own medieval notions criminals could elect to undergo trial by ordeal and carry a red hot iron bar the length of the church.

 

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

This has been discussed before and although we may be shocked by such a marriage arrangement one has to ask how unusual was it for the period and the culture? If it was not shocking at the time then we cannot accuse him of criminal or perverse behaviour.

Obviously one can question the relevance and desireability of perpetuating any medieval notion into a modern world (social, criminal justice or whatever). Indeed if we still held on to our own medieval notions criminals could elect to undergo trial by ordeal and carry a red hot iron bar the length of the church.

While I agree with you, you have seen the Quran quote, and the admission of Sunni Man that Muslims ARE following Muhamad's Sunna (example) to this day - as detailed in the ahadith. One must also note that the Quran itself (65:4) allows paedophillic marriages. Then we have the issue of Muslims today who are following this aspect of Muhammad's life! Muslim child brides in Afghanistan (for example).

Now of course I'm not saying that it is *obligatory* to marry a child if you are a Muslim man - I am saying that Muhammad's example and the perfect words of Allah support you if you have the inclination and the money. These men have the backing of their religion to do this.

This whole 'follow Muhammad's example' for Muslims is the reason why we must judge Muhammad according to the ethics and morals of our time - he put himself out there by declaring that his sunna was valid for ALL people for ALL time. If we could get Muslims to stop following his example then we can leave Muhammad's actions in the timeframe in which he lived. Unfortunatey, we do not have that luxury at this time.

Thanks

-JP

ETA: Also to note that there is absolutey no evidence that older men marrying pre-pubescent girls was "the norm" in Arabia until Muhammad set the precedent - after that many Muslim men began marrying children. In fact, IIRC, 65:4 was revealed because of the necessity of setting a specific 'iddat (waiting period for divorce) for those who's 'iddat could not be measured by normal means (menstruation). Sure, it may have been acceptable for people to marry younger, but each was of comparable age and not the 51 vs. 6 Muhammad/Aisha deal. Whether or not we wish to assume (with no evidence) that it was "normal" in that time to engage in paedophilia is really an irrelevant issue - as has been shown this "example" is being followed by Muslims today!

 

[Nogbad]

Age of consent for marriage has, even in the UK, been much lower in the past than it is today. In the UK it was 12 before the 16th century. In societies where multiple wives are allowed there is much more of a liklihood that there will be a bigger age gap for later wives than in societies where one wife is taken. That said, even in the UK, through death of a first wife, a man might take a much younger bride in the hope of producing a heir.

I am loathe to use the term paedophilia in relation to historical figures because it has become a modern term that verges on "witch! witch!" and carries an emotive response that would be alien to someone in the 7th century (who might be far more concerned with witches).

That said, clearly I do not believe that 7th century customs and practices are acceptable in a modern society. Indeed, early Victorian practices of making 10 year kids work 10 hours a day down mines is not something I think we should return to. However, as a sceptic, I do not believe Mohammed embodied "the perfect life" and those elements of his life that belong in the 7th century should stay there.

 

[Macoy]

For awhile I though you where half way intelligent about Islam.

Then you made the above statement.

I am a on a lot of forums about Islam. And that is the most "bizarre" thing I have ever heard. Period!

Just curious; what anti-Islamic site did you get this stuff from?

To the gulible and misinformed, it sounds like it could be right.

To someone who knows better, it's just a bunch of nonsense strung together to sound logical.

Very much a description of yourself, except that you do not sound logical. When will you answer the questions asked of you?

 

[Sunni Man]

Therefore, the Quran is really based on the ahadith.

Look Jigsaw, when I saw this in your previous post. "Therefore, the Quran is really based on the ahadith".

(You and I both know this is pure nonsense.)



I immediately recognized your debating style and agenda.

I have came across your type before many times.

You propose questions along the line of "Do you still beat your wife"? or "What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Convoluted nonsensical questions, or questions based on circular reasoning with no clear answer.

Designed to make the presenter look smart, and the party trying to honestly answer look dumb.



Personally, I don't want to spend hours and hours debating your preprogrammed fantasy of what Islam is about.

Jihad Watch creates anti-Islamic clones like you everyday.

What's boring is that you guys ask the same questions, and then later respond back with the same answers. Over and over again.

Jigsaw, this isn't a personal attack. Just a personal observation based on my experence.

 

[gtc]

Sunni,

Do you think it is acceptable for Muslims to marry and have sex with 9 year old girls or do you think that there are some aspects of Muhammed's life that should not be seen as a guide for Muslims?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Look Jigsaw, when I saw this in your previous post. "Therefore, the Quran is really based on the ahadith".

(You and I both know this is pure nonsense.)



I immediately recognized your debating style and agenda.

I have came across your type before many times.

You propose questions along the line of "Do you still beat your wife"? or "What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Convoluted nonsensical questions, or questions based on circular reasoning with no clear answer.

Designed to make the presenter look smart, and the party trying to honestly answer look dumb.



Personally, I don't want to spend hours and hours debating your preprogrammed fantasy of what Islam is about.

Jihad Watch creates anti-Islamic clones like you everyday.

What's boring is that you guys ask the same questions, and then later respond back with the same answers. Over and over again.

Jigsaw, this isn't a personal attack. Just a personal observation based on my experence.

I have done none of what you above mention. Will you answer if I ask?

I'm curious to know if you think that it is currently acceptable for a man to have sex with a 12 year old bride, or do you think that this particular aspect of Muslim history is no longer relevant to the modern world?

 

[CFLarsen]

Sunni Man,

Why don't you want to answer my question?

 

[Sunni Man]

That wasn't infantile, was it?

Not really sure what you are asking?

 

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Look Jigsaw, when I saw this in your previous post. "Therefore, the Quran is really based on the ahadith".

(You and I both know this is pure nonsense.)

You keep saying it is 'nonsense' but have not addressed it! I have explained it to you in my previous post to you but you have not addressed this either. Again, in essence, since the Quran is circumstance based to Muslims/Muhammad's life at the time, then any revelation in the Quran was a direct response to said events.

This means the ahadith (sahih) preceded the Quran verse(s). Therefore the Quran is based on the ahadith!

I immediately recognized your debating style and agenda.

Interesting! What is my 'agenda'? After I met a Muslim in a chat room I decided to look into Islam and learn what it really was. The only "agenda" I am aware of, is that I wish to see what the Islamic texts *really say* and not the taqqiya loaded dawa-ganda that Muslims seem so eager for us to swallow.

My sources for my information are the Quran, the Tafseer & the ahadith. AFAIK these are your own sources for your religion. So tell me, where have I gone wrong? What is wrong with my 'debating style'?

I have came across your type before many times.

You propose questions along the line of "Do you still beat your wife"? or "What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Nope, that is a logical fallacy. All I have done thus far is pointed out some evidence from your own texts, which you have agreed are valid. Why are you then attacking me?

Convoluted nonsensical questions, or questions based on circular reasoning with no clear answer.

Please present evidence showing where I have done this.

Designed to make the presenter look smart, and the party trying to honestly answer look dumb.

Howso? I have given you much time to answer but you seem insistent on insulting me instead of answering.

Personally, I don't want to spend hours and hours debating your preprogrammed fantasy of what Islam is about.

As stated, the only sources I use for my evidence re: Islam are your own. If this is 'fantasy' then you must disown your own religion OR point out where I am mistaken.

Jihad Watch creates anti-Islamic clones like you everyday.

I do not post on Jihad Watch as I consider it a hate site where the forum is only for bashing Muslims and supporting idiocies like genocide (nuking Mecca). You will not find me registered there, and you will find that I have spoken out against it many times if you were to run across my posts on other websites.

Therefore, unless you can present actual evidence to back up your stereotypical claims about me, you are being most unfair.

What's boring is that you guys ask the same questions, and then later respond back with the same answers. Over and over again.

Really? Where have I done that? Why are you stereotyping me? I do not believe you know me therefore how can you make such a claim? I have a whole 50 posts to my name here....have you read all my posts?

Jigsaw, this isn't a personal attack. Just a personal observation based on my experence.

Yes, this is a personal attack designed to dissaude me from talking to you (so you don't have to answer) and (b)you are again trying to discredit me AND the evidence I am presenting to you and others.

Unfortunately it is a common Muslim tactic. Please just answer the questions that I and others have asked of you! Simply saying "that is wrong" is not good enough - you must explain and show evidence of WHY it is wrong, or point out where we are wrong.

Can you please do that?

Thanks

-JP

 

[Sunni Man]

Sunni,

do you think that there are some aspects of Muhammed's life that should not be seen as a guide for Muslims?

Muhammad's life is a guide for "all "Muslims to follow.