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Gunman shoots 18 people.

Hi
... snip ...

Nobody in Britain will ever be able to rid the names of Hungerford and Dublane of their terrible associations though.

How many of this type of thing have you has since... ummm... checking facts... since ummm... Charles Whitman invented this new method of wrongdoing in 1966?

...and about dann's post: Isn't homicidal mania a form of psychosis?
 
Hi


How many of this type of thing have you has since... ummm... checking facts... since ummm... Charles Whitman invented this new method of wrongdoing in 1966?

Honestly? It really isn't that much higher than the 2 Rolfe mentioned.

Yes, that's right. Two.
 
They're rather routine here, it seems:

Printed in an article referencing the OP shooting:

— There have been five shootings in US schools and universities in the past few days. They include a nursing student in Louisiana who shot two students and herself, and a 17-year-old who shot dead another student in gym class
— A massacre last week at a city hall meeting in Kirkwood, Missouri, left five people dead
— In 2005-06 there were 14,300 incidents of children disciplined for using or possessing a firearm or explosive device
— Two thirds of homicide victims in the US are killed with firearms
— There are about 11,000 firearms-related deaths in the US annually – more occur in two days than the UK records in a year
Source: US Department of Justice, CNN, agencies, Harvard University

and

The past couple of weeks have been a dangerous time to live in America. We witnessed a skein of high-profile, multiple victim shootings, many causing the deaths and woundings of several innocents and police officers. Meanwhile, the world looked on in shock and disgust.
The shootings included:
~Saturday, February 1: 15-year old honor student shoots and kills parents and two brothers in Baltimore suburb;
~Saturday, February 1: Gunman shoots and kills five women in suburban Chicago clothing store;
~Sunday, February 2: Gunman shoots and kills three at suburban Washington, DC pizzeria after argument over Super Bowl;
~Thursday, February 7: Gunman shoots and kills police officer, three others in fiery Los Angeles stand-off;
~Thursday, February 7: Disgruntled citizen shoots and kills two police officers, three others in rampage during Missouri city council meeting; and
~Friday, February 8: Nursing student shoots and kills two other students and self at Louisiana college.
What would have likely been the most damaging shooting of all during the period occurred mercifully without death or injury Sunday, February 2, when a man armed himself with an assault rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition and approached the Super Bowl near Phoenix intent on massacre, but had a last-minute change of heart and turned himself in before opening fire.
The series was capped off this past Thursday, Valentine's Day, when a disturbed gunman shot and killed 5 students and wounded 16, before killing himself, in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University.

From another article:


US death toll
October 2007 Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson shot and killed six people at a house party in Crandon, Wisconsin, before turning the gun on himself.
April 2007 At Virginia Tech (below), loner Seung-Hui Cho, a Korean American, killed 32 students and staff in the worst school shooting in US history. He then killed himself.
October 2006 Charles Roberts lined up five schoolgirls against a blackboard before shooting them at West Nickel Mines Amish School in Paradise, Pennsylvania. He killed himself.
April 1999 Students at Columbine high school were targeted by Colorado misfits Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris who opened fire on classmates, killing 12 teenagers and a teacher. The pair then killed themselves.
October 1991 George Hennard drove a truck into Luby's Cafe in Killeen, Texas, shot dead 23 people, then himself.

"In the U.S., we have a couple of dozen mass killings every year," says James A. Fox, a professor of criminal justice at Northeastern University in Boston, and a noted authority on murder sprees. The intense media focus on events like the Virginia Tech shootings, last year's slaying of five young Amish girls at a rural Pennsylvania school, or the 1999 Columbine massacre, has created a perception that they are happening more frequently, but the number of such tragedies has stayed constant for close to 30 years. And while mass killings are an international phenomenon -- the Dunblane massacre in Scotland, a rampage in Erfurt, Germany, that left 16 dead in 2002, and Canada's own École Polytechnique, Taber and Dawson College shootings among them -- the U.S. remains their unquestioned epicentre. Fox ticks off his possible explanations: America's obsession with high-powered weapons, an "eclipse in community" and family breakdowns that have left more and more people isolated, and a popular culture that celebrates those who get even, and pities those who don't. "Most of these mass killers have a clear sense that they are right and other people are wrong," he says. "A clear sense that they are being victimized by an unfair system, and they go after the people they hold responsible."

And we can't do anything because gun owners think the answers is more guns and fewer restrictions. Everyone imagines themselves a hero with their gun, and they feel that these tragedies are worth their "right to bear arms". They will comment on everything but the tragedy and throw out a bunch of tangents to avoid admitting this, but the bottom line is, those who wish there were fewer loaded guns around-- those who wish they were mandated to be locked up and unloaded... we are shouted down by the gun nuts... and they are armed. There doesn't seem to be a solution... just rhetoric --and the gun lobby is one of the most powerful in America.

We have gun tragedies every day in America. We have far more massacres than any other civilized country--we average a "couple dozen" a year. It's barbaric... and there seems to be no means of stopping this escalation--with the posts of "gun enthusiasts" you should see why. Even posts like this are perceived as "threats to their rights" by them. They are more prone to paranoia and more like to overestimate the likelihood of their gun being used "heroically" and greatly underestimate the risk that it might be used to harm their life or the life of someone they know. The more irrational they are, the more likely they are to keep a loaded gun around for "protection". The ones that snap, never think they are the ones that will snap... the parents of kids who snap all had "no idea". Those who should know because they have already experienced a gun tragedy in their family first hand-- still keep their loaded weapons at the ready. If witnessing the ruination of another's life cannot change one's habits, what in the world will?
 
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Hi

But, again, what makes gun homicides worse than other kinds of homicide (the other half of the American homicide problem)? Why do you think that disarming law-abiding citizens will make the crime rate, homicide rate and suicide rate go down when it plainly did not in the UK? Why does the UK with MUCH LOWER overall crime rates than the US have a nearly IDENTICAL suicide rate?

Why were the 30,694 firearm deaths in 2004 somehow more tragic than the 32,691 poisoning deaths? Why are gun deaths more important than the other 143,059 deaths that happened in 2004?

Why are murders that get into the newspaper and onto TV more important than the ones that don't?

Just asking.
 
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I wouldn't say they're worse. But they're so much easier!

Yep. Instant massacre. Grab dad's gun and go, eh? With tools that are easy to conceal and made to do the job most efficiently. It does tend to be the most popular method of massacre in America, doesn't it?
 
Hi
Yep. Instant massacre. Grab dad's gun and go, eh? With tools that are easy to conceal and made to do the job most efficiently. It does tend to be the most popular method of massacre in America, doesn't it?

...or drop in at the grocery store and buy a few bottles of liquid chlorine laundry bleach and household ammonia.

It's a dangerous world.

Think that'd make the papers?
 
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Hi
I wouldn't say they're worse. But they're so much easier!

And, unless I misremember my English, "easy," and, "irreplaceable," are not synomyms.

So: Where did all those gun deaths GO in Britain?

But the actual question was about the amount of tragedy implicit in homicide, and the effect that, apparently, different available methods and weapons seems to vary it.
 
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If it was a method of massacre used a couple dozen times a year, I'm sure it would.

I suspect it's not one many people choose for multiple reasons.
 
Hi


And, unless I misremember my English, "easy," and, "irreplaceable," are not synomyms.

So: Where did all those gun deaths GO in Britain?

Well, it appears they've ended up in the same place as all people not massacred by guns GO here in America. Most of them go on living their lives. (You know, like those kids would be doing if they weren't shot by the dude in the OP article?)
 
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Hi
Well, it appears they've ended up in the same place as all people not massacred by guns GO here in America. Most of them go on living their lives. (You know, like those kids would be doing who weren't shot by the dude in the OP article?) Duh.

Actually, no. As I posted above, the same number of people are being murdered. The same number of people are committing suicide.

It's just different people. Why is the death of a teenager killed by a gun worse than the death of a teenager killed by a knife?

And, again: Where did the gun deaths go? If taking away guns saves lives, whey are there the same number of deaths after they took away the guns?
 
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Hi
If it was a method of massacre used a couple dozen times a year, I'm sure it would.

I suspect it's not one many people choose for multiple reasons.

NONE of these happened until the Texas Tower Sniper incident. He got WEEKS of every-night TV coverage and analysis.

What a way to go! Down in a BLAZE of MEDIA GLORY!

No one's poisoning rooms full of elementary school kids because no one's thought of it yet, just like no one thought of shooting bunches of people at school before 1966.

Give 'em time. Give 'em time.
 
The other countries don't have near the number of massacres we do... or homicides... or even suicides of young people.

You can't seriously believe that all gun victims would have died via chemical bombs or something.... Certainly not the kids mentioned in the OP... or the family killed by the son who got the gun his dad kept to protect his family (which wouldn't have worked to protect anyone in a chemical bomb attack, I might add.)

I strongly suspect many of these guns are used because they're available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilization_behavior

You don't see chemicals and think "gee, it would be so easy to make a chemical bomb..." People do see triggers and think, I wonder what would happen if I just pulled this. I can change everything... in an instant. I can kill myself and make a whole lot of other people suffer as well. And some do. Quit pretending that this kid would have used or done something else... that is really a stretch... but one that "gun enthusiasts" often seem to make.

Do you really think we'd have as many massacres and homicides were it not for the omnipresence of loaded weapons designed to kill people?
 
I hate it when gunmen do crap like this. It ends up lending credence to the attitude that regular law enforcement isn't enough and that the government should go out of their way to monitor everybody looking for people who might (meaning not even remotely certain) do something -- something which is antithetical to what the fourth-amendment stands for.

This is always the thing that worries me first and foremost whenever a gunman goes on a rampage, how it will affect our civil-liberties.


INRM
 
Hi
The other countries don't have near the number of massacres we do... or homicides... or even suicides of young people.
Better check your facts. Britain and the US have nearly IDENTICAL suicide rates. The suicide rate spiked the reporting period AFTER 1997, too, when all of their guns were heavily controlled or confiscated. In 2005, the US had a slightly LOWER suicide rate than Britain.

I don't know about ALL other countries, but Britain ALWAYS had lower overall crime rates, but even there, the crime rates are on the rise. If guns cause crimes, and fewer guns mean LESS crime, why is the british rate going up?

As for massacres: We invented it. We're better at it.

Again, why do you think that the death of 10 people in a clump more tragic than 10 people killed, spread all over the country?

You can't seriously believe that all gun victims would have died via chemical bombs or something.... Certainly not the kids mentioned in the OP... or the family killed by the son who got the gun his dad kept to protect his family (which wouldn't have worked to protect anyone in a chemical bomb attack, I might add.)
Then what's killing the Brits?

There was NO decline in homicide rates or suicide rates after they went all... as everyone in this country says, "draconian," only the anti-gun people say it like it's a GOOD thing.

Shouldn't there have been SOME effect?

The kid in the OP was almost an Eagle scout. That means that he had an axe and knew how to use it. Would it have been less tragic if he'd killed them with it?

I strongly suspect many of these guns are used because they're available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilization_behavior

I suspect so, too, but other things are available as well. Well- they apparently are in Britain, anyhow.

You don't see chemicals and think "gee, it would be so easy to make a chemical bomb..." People do see triggers and think, I wonder what would happen if I just pulled this. I can change everything... in an instant. I can kill myself and make a whole lot of other people suffer as well. And some do. Quit pretending that this kid would have used or done something else... that is really a stretch... but one that "gun enthusiasts" often seem to make.
Well - actually, I do. Your tax dollars at work.

I used to take bombs apart for the Army, and the training I received to that end have left me thinking a little differently than most people. Everywhere I go, I'm doing a risk analysis and escape plan. <<shrug>> Chemicals in the grocery store, culvert under the street, oncoming cars in traffic all get tallied up as I go along.

ANYHOW: Just because YOU see triggers and think, "I wonder what would happen if I just pulled this", doesn't mean everyone does. I see a trigger and immediately check which way the muzzle is pointed. I was trained with THOSE, too.

A stretch to think that an Eagle scout could have used an axe? I almost guarantee there was one around the house, garage or tool shed, and he knew how to use it. A gun being around is an excuse too. Available is available, as the homicide rates form Britain have shown pretty well.

...and you still haven't answered how you know that the father in the OP didn't leave his firearm unloaded and locked.

Do you really think we'd have as many massacres and homicides were it not for the omnipresence of loaded weapons designed to kill people?

As for homicides, they do in Jolly Old. Give me one reason it should be different here.

As for massacres, again, American invention, and good ol' American expertise.
 
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I hate it when gunmen do crap like this. It ends up lending credence to the attitude that regular law enforcement isn't enough and that the government should go out of their way to monitor everybody looking for people who might (meaning not even remotely certain) do something -- something which is antithetical to what the fourth-amendment stands for.

This is always the thing that worries me first and foremost whenever a gunman goes on a rampage, how it will affect our civil-liberties.


INRM

Yes, the gun enthusiasts always worry about that... they never worry about the dead people, oddly enough. Every post where guns are mentioned, they come a'running, lest someone think of asking them to keep their guns unloaded and locked up.

It's a right that non-Americans don't seem to be longing for. I wonder why?
 
We have gun tragedies every day in America. We have far more massacres than any other civilized country--we average a "couple dozen" a year. It's barbaric... and there seems to be no means of stopping this escalation--with the posts of "gun enthusiasts" you should see why. Even posts like this are perceived as "threats to their rights" by them. They are more prone to paranoia and more like to overestimate the likelihood of their gun being used "heroically" and greatly underestimate the risk that it might be used to harm their life or the life of someone they know. The more irrational they are, the more likely they are to keep a loaded gun around for "protection". The ones that snap, never think they are the ones that will snap... the parents of kids who snap all had "no idea". Those who should know because they have already experienced a gun tragedy in their family first hand-- still keep their loaded weapons at the ready. If witnessing the ruination of another's life cannot change one's habits, what in the world will?


Reasoned discourse, maybe? Maybe a change of approach by anti-gun faith-heads who refuse to understand the issue, who wrongly and dishonestly attribute a particular mode of thinking to all gun owners? As I mentioned here, you've clearly demonstrated that you don't have a clue about how gun owners generally think, articulett. As long as you, and others like you who refuse to become properly informed about the issue, remain so entrenched in your wrongness, as long as you can only offer hyperbolic complaining, you won't make any kind of productive contribution towards reducing this particular societal ill.
 
Hi

Reposted from another thread:

Lets see what the British Home Office has to say about how safe Britain is because of the gun ban.

All crime:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_TOTAL_RECORDED_CRIME_06.gif[/qimg]

Brits are a level-headed lot- not much overall change. The disconnect in 88/89 is because of a change in reporting and recording practices in April of 1998.

Violent Crime:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_TOTAL_VIOLENT_CRIME_06.gif[/qimg]


Homicide:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_Homicide_06.gif[/qimg]



Robbery:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_TOTAL_ROBBERY_06.gif[/qimg]


Theft from the person of another:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_Theft_from_the_person_of_another_06.gif[/qimg]


Violent disorder offences:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_Violent_Disorder_offences_06.gif[/qimg]


Sexual offences:
[qimg]http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_TOTAL_SEXUAL_OFFENCES_06.gif[/qimg]


Composite suicide raw numbers from National Statistics at statistics.gov.uk (I had to run the totals):

Year Total Suicides
1991 6317.0
1992 6378.0
1993 6212.0
1994 6045.0
1995 6084.0
1996 5877.0
1997 5816.0
1998 6354.0
1999 6255.0
2000 6124.0
2001 5932.0
2002 5826.0
2003 5731.0
2004 5850.0
2005 5671.0
2006 5554.0

Let me SHOW you that (I had to have Excel open anyway)....
UK_Suicide_Numbers.jpg


From http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/41605.php]medicalnewstoday.com

The report shows the most recent suicide rate (for the 3 years 2002/3/4) was 8.56 deaths per 100,000 population - a reduction of 6.6% from the 1995/6/7 baseline. The target is to reduce the suicide rate by at least a fifth by the year 2010 (from the baseline rate of 9.2 deaths per 100,000 population in 1995/6/7 to 7.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 2009/10/11).
1.066 * 8.56 would give the 1995/6/7 baseline a value of 9.12, right?

In the US, our same-period suicide rate was, according, again, to WISQARS, for 2002/3/4 (Suicide, All injury) was 10.87, and for 1995/6/7 (again, Suicide, All injury) was 11.53.

So, in a country where handguns are popular and available, if the anti-gun arithmetic is any where near right, shouldn't we have significantly more than about 2 more deaths per 100,000?

Also, the article is happy about such a low suicide rate, and proud of a 6.6% drop, while the USA had, while increasing the number of handguns, managed a 5.7% drop of its own!

According to statistics.gov.uk
UK suicides reach 30 year low in 2003
There were 5,755 adult suicides in the UK in 2003, the lowest
number since 1973, according to data released today by the
Office for National Statistics.

Suicide rates for men, which were rising through the 1970s and
1980s, have decreased steadily since 1998. The rate for 2003,
18.1 deaths per 100,000 population, was the lowest since 1978.

Suicide rates for women, which fell steadily in the 1980s and early
1990s, have decreased only slightly since the mid-1990s. The
rate for women remained around 5.8 deaths per 100,000
population in each of the years 2001 to 2003.


The US same-period suicide rate for men was 17.99 per 100,000, and for women, 4.18.

Now, using raw data for 2003, we had 31,484 suicides, of which 16,907 were committed with firearms, so about half the suicides were with guns. Britain, however, with no handguns and strict controls on all guns, seems to have a HIGHER suicide rate!

My compilation of suicide rates per 100,00 for men and women (the Brits break it down, and I have to reassamble it...) is coming soon....
 
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Hi

Crude suicide rates of US and UK men and women, 1991 to 2005

Code:
Year	UK Me	UK Wo	US Me	US Wo
1991 |	20.95 |	6.69 |	20.07 |	4.66
1992 |	21.07 |	6.70 |	19.53 |	4.59
1993 |	20.48 |	6.48 |	19.70 |	4.58
1994 |	19.90 |	6.13 |	19.58 |	4.44
1995 |	20.22 |	6.11 |	19.48 |	4.35
1996 |	19.19 |	5.99 |	18.97 |	4.29
1997 |	19.00 |	6.10 |	18.35 |	4.34
1998 |	21.10 |	6.24 |	18.16 |	4.29
1999 |	20.72 |	5.99 |	17.15 |	4.04
2000 |	19.92 |	6.20 |	17.11 |	4.00
2001 |	19.30 |	5.80 |	17.61 |	4.10
2002 |	18.68 |	5.83 |	17.95 |	4.26
2003 |	18.14 |	5.78 |	17.63 |	4.25
2004 |	18.08 |	6.03 |	17.70 |	4.61
2005 |	17.51 |	5.83 |	17.75 |	4.47
(I wish I could post tables....)
 
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