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Gunman shoots 18 people.

I don't know... I can't make sense of anything you are saying... you seem to think that limiting guns means that the gun tragedies like those in the OP will be replaced by bomb tragedies. I think that sounds like the rhetoric of many irrational gun owners in America.

You seem to think that limiting guns would stop mass murders. Without going into detail you could eliminate guns entirely and I can think of 3-4 ways off the top of my head to commit mass murder that would make Columbine and VT look like an "innocent accident" if I went crazy. My point is that there is a far deeper problem in America that needs to be addressed and people like you want to put a band-aid on a gash that goes to the bone.

Yes, I'm concerned by the number of irrational people who own guns. I'm sure nobody thinks that the gun they own will end up destroying anyone's life. Please buy non lethal bullets and avoid bringing your weapons around people I care about. I hope you are just joking, but if you don't mind I think I'm going to put you on ignore because you sound like part of the problem.

I'm concerned about the number of irrational people who think that having a gun means you want to destroy anyone's life, or that it eventually will. For roughly 23 years lived in a house where there was at least 1 gun loaded with a round in the chamber (for autos) at all times (It was 4 guns but my Mom became suicidal due to meds) and there were no tragedies involving guns.


Yes. People are crazy. Believe me, I know.
 
Hi

I would be interested in what psychological dynamics reduce one's ability to use a machete, once the decision has been made to kill a room full of kids.

I may have been premature: I assumed a decision to kill the room full of kids, because that was the original scenario.


It's complicated, but in summary:

A person wanting to kill someone must overcome their natural resistance to killing.
The more personal and immediate the act is, the harder it is to overcome it.

This dynamic is in place in both scenarios. However in the atrocity scenario there are other factors at play.

The killer is being compelled by the group which helps to overcome the atrocity.
Often this compulsion will extend to threats of physical violence or death.
These compulsions make overcoming the resistance much easier.

Now, once the first killing has occurred, you get a psychological "backlash".

Think of it as "what goes up must come down". The greater the resistance that had to be overcome, the more severe the backlash. This backlash is why so many murders end in suicide or attempted suicide.

Now in the case of the single killer, this makes subsequent killings more difficult, and results in increasing psychological distress.

But in the atrocity scenario another group aspect is at play. The atrocity group, having committed the atrocity, are psychologically vulnerable. In order to protect themselves psychologically, they skew their perception of reality and justify their actions - for example dehumanising the victims, asserting that their proven superiority makes it just, and so forth. The construct a lie - a distorted version of reality.

The problem is when they come across the next village their lie is undeniable - evident in the humanity of the villagers. So they are compelled to commit additional atrocities to assert their dominance over the victims and vindicate their distorted reality. And the same thing occurs when a new person joins the group - that new person becomes a mirror of the lie of their perceptions. So the group must compel the newcomer to join "the dark side" by also committing atrocity (which brings as back to the beginning and into the atrocity loop).

Thus the psychological dynamics of a group atrocity are very different to a lone killer, and comparing the two is not valid.
 
Hi

Thanks for the perspective, gumboot. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's worth thinking about.
 
Hi

Thanks for the perspective, gumboot. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's worth thinking about.


For a more detailed explanation read On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society by Lt Col Dave Grossman. It's a very interesting book.
 
Ah. So it's mistaken then.

I'm happy for the right to own my guns. I accept that mass murders by guns are possible because of this

I'm happy American Tobacco Co. funded part of my education. I accept the fact that millions of people died due to smoking related causes.

I'm happy that I have the right to free speech. I accept the fact that said free speech included people like Fred Phelps.

I'm happy I own a motorcycle. I accept the fact that motorcycles are far less safe than cars and an accident on one could kill or seriously injure me when in a car.

According to your logic, I'm happy that mass murders by guns are possible, I'm happy that millions of people died for my scholarship, I'm happy Fred Phelps protests funerals, and I want to die in a motorcycle crash.

No one said they are happy with the mass murders in America.
You stated that mass murders are a consequence of liberal gun laws. You linked mass murders to those laws. My reference to mass murders was clearly to those you accept as a consequence of the liberal gun laws, as opposed to mass murders such as 9/11.

I abbreviated 'the mass murders arising as a consequence of liberal gun laws being a regrettable but acceptable side effect". That is quite clear from my posts. For you to conclude I was suggesting that people were happy people were victims of mass murder is a mistake on your part not mine.

To put my statement into context perhaps this might help you understand it.

You are happy that Fred Phelps protesting funerals is an acceptable consequence of free speech.

You are happy that motorbike deaths are an acceptable consequence of motorbikes.

You are happy that mass murders are an acceptable consequence of liberal gun laws.
 
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Hi

Didn't we have a talk about this, "happy," stuff just a little bit ago?

Remember that being happy with the house and unhappy with the price, but accepting the price because it gets you something valuable NOT being the same as being happy with the price?

Here you area, again, saying, "happy with the price as an acceptable consequence of having a house."

No, we are not happy with the price. We're happy with the house. We accept the price.
 
Hi
For a more detailed explanation read On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society by Lt Col Dave Grossman. It's a very interesting book.
A quick follow-up question: Do you think it's that much easier to kill with a gun than with a machete? Don't the same factors come into play when someone decides to shoot a bunch of people for the first time as do when the goal is to chop them to death?

My personal feeling, remembering my success rate the first time I picked up a machete on the farm as a boy to chop underbrush, is that it's more easily explained as, "city boy don't know how to chop."
 
You seem to think that limiting guns would stop mass murders. Without going into detail you could eliminate guns entirely and I can think of 3-4 ways off the top of my head to commit mass murder that would make Columbine and VT look like an "innocent accident" if I went crazy.

This has been done to death in this thread and a dozen others. The pro-gun crowd have repeatedly and deliberately failed to address the criticisms of this nonsensical point of view so I for one officially give up.

My point is that there is a far deeper problem in America that needs to be addressed and people like you want to put a band-aid on a gash that goes to the bone.

What's the point in tending to the wound when the idiot will go and shoot himself again?

I'm concerned about the number of irrational people who think that having a gun means you want to destroy anyone's life, or that it eventually will. For roughly 23 years lived in a house where there was at least 1 gun loaded with a round in the chamber (for autos) at all times (It was 4 guns but my Mom became suicidal due to meds) and there were no tragedies involving guns.

My great-uncle smoked 40 a day and died at the age of 99. Ergo, smoking is perfectly safe.
 
Hi

A quick follow-up question: Do you think it's that much easier to kill with a gun than with a machete? Don't the same factors come into play when someone decides to shoot a bunch of people for the first time as do when the goal is to chop them to death?

The same basic factors are at play. The key difference is that the resistance to killing is not an absolute thing, it's a variable and it is affected by a host of factors. The actual killing methodology and proximity to the victim plays a key part.

The more removed the killer is from the actual act of killing, and from the victim, the easier it is to overcome the resistance (and also the lower or more delayed the backlash, allowing for continued killing).

The actual act of killing itself can vary from the extreme case of killing someone by penetrating their body with your own (say killing them by shoving your thumb through their eye into their brain) or issuing an order for someone to fire a missile that flies across the world before blowing up a house.

On this scale shooting someone with a firearm would involve a lesser resistance than actually cutting them with a machete. Firstly it's a simple matter of range - with a machete you have to be close. Secondly with a machete you are physically holding the object that enters their body and kills them, whereas a person firing a gun has no physical contact with the bullet.

Distance from the victim is the second major component and pretty much mirrors what I said above - you physically need to be closer to a victim to kill them with a machete. At that range it becomes impossible to deny the pain and anguish and suffering you have inflicted on the victim. They may even make some physical contact with you.

Another aspect to consider in this specific case is how people were targeted. In terms of the above factors, with a machete it is undeniable that you yourself killed the particular person dying right in front of you. In contrast if you fire a shotgun indiscriminately into a large crowd of people you have not individually targeted anyone, and so at an intellectual level you can deny personal responsibility for the death of a specific individual.

Lastly, killing someone with a machete would typically take longer than killing them with a firearm. You pull the trigger, there's a bang, they fall down, and you move onto your next victim (they of course might not actually be dead yet, but you have dismissed them from your mind). In contrast when you kill someone with a blade you are immediately in the presence of their pain and suffering as they are initially injured. You may have to inflict additional wounds on them to kill them.

Last thing to consider is the "blowback" or the psychological repercussion of overcoming your resistance. The resistance in the machete example is more extreme for the reasons explained above, and that results in a more severe and more rapid blowback - it may occur during the actual act of killing them. As such you're more likely to be overcome with grief sooner, preventing you from continuing.

In contrast blowback from a firearm killing may be delayed or less severe, and as the actual act of killing is quicker, you're simply more likely to be able to kill multiple people before being overwhelmed by the psychological ramifications of what you have done.

A final foot note to this is that in this case the killer appears to have intended from the beginning to shoot until all ammunition was exhausted except one round which he used on himself. Knowing that suicide is the intended end result, this has a profound impact on the resistance to killing and also on the impact of the blowback (if you know you're going to die at the end of it, there's no ramification).

In contrast I have a hard time believing someone would plan to walk into a room with a machete, hack a bunch of people up, and then turn the machete on themselves.

All of these factors essentially make killing a group of people with a gun much easier than with a machete.


My personal feeling, remembering my success rate the first time I picked up a machete on the farm as a boy to chop underbrush, is that it's more easily explained as, "city boy don't know how to chop."

I don't think that's it at all. The resistance to killing is entirely independent of any ability to perform the mechanical action. Soldiers throughout history have failed to fire their weapons at the enemy despite receiving extensive weapons drill.
 
Oh I'm so proud, my alma mater, finally gets to be a proper gun control debate thread on JREF.

On a different note.

I want to carry a sword! Whats the deal with all these conceal carry laws in states with a bunch of guns?

Never swords!

Anyone know in what state I could carry around a sword as I go grocery shopping, or for a stroll in the park? (you know and not get it taken away or harassed by nosy cops.)
 
Hi

Thanks again, gumboot. Judging from most first-time brush-clearing machete use, there seems to be a lot of psychological resistance to cutting locust saplings, too, so I'm not buying it 100%, but I'm going to get that book.
 
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That is awful. 30 shots, 17 people shot none dead. Was this man not taught to shoot properly? I blame the parents, he is a disgrace to the militia.
What a hilarious joke; very classy too. I bet you were a riot after 9/11.


As for the idea that a lot of college kids toting guns around campus would be safer, I would hope the illogic of that would be more than a little obvious. Good grief.
 
What year of school was that in? We were being shown said properties in year eight...one of my mates had to go to hospital when the teacher used a bit too much sodium (a good example of why high school science teachers should have at least a basic knowledge of science).

10 and 11. 8 was geology, 9 was physics/chem, 10 was bio, 11 was chem.

We got the chem teacher to do the demonstration for an entire week straight. He couldn't remember if he had done it or not.
 
This has been done to death in this thread and a dozen others. The pro-gun crowd have repeatedly and deliberately failed to address the criticisms of this nonsensical point of view so I for one officially give up.

Of course it has.



What's the point in tending to the wound when the idiot will go and shoot himself again?

That's why you teach him not to shoot himself.





My great-uncle smoked 40 a day and died at the age of 99. Ergo, smoking is perfectly safe.

For him it was.
 
Anyone know in what state I could carry around a sword as I go grocery shopping, or for a stroll in the park? (you know and not get it taken away or harassed by nosy cops.)
Colorado allows open carry in many situations, although The Emperor probably screwed the pooch for that in the near future (story says "knife," when he went to rent his tux it was dangling from his belt all "sword-like.")
 
A quick follow-up question: Do you think it's that much easier to kill with a gun than with a machete? Don't the same factors come into play when someone decides to shoot a bunch of people for the first time as do when the goal is to chop them to death?


In Britain we suffer from a severe shortage of comparable incidents. In spite of strict gun control laws, I'm afraid I am unable to point you to any school (or other) massacres by lone lunatics wielding anything other than a gun.

We've only had two school attacks in recent memory, and it's getting not all that recent now. (Our current no. 1 tennis champion was a frightened eight-year-old hiding under a desk yards from the only fatal example.) Interestingly, neither attacker was a disaffected teen, both were middle-aged weirdos. Maybe a lesson there somewhere? Maybe when disaffected teens can't get guns they don't run amuck in schools at all?

Anyway, attack one, the infamous Dunblane massacre. March 1996. Thomas Hamilton had some perfectly legal guns, and some sort of grudge against society, and he killed 16 five-year-olds and their teacher.

Attack two, the Wolverhampton machete attack. July 1996. The name associated with this is not the attacker, who is quite forgotten (Horrett Irving Campbell), but Lisa Potts, the teacher who was badly injured protecting her pupils. In all, three children and four adults were injured. Nobody was killed.

So, sorry for the shortage of data, but these are the only incidents I have to go on. And I know which one I'd rather not be involved in.

Widening the subject to werdos going on killing sprees, I can only think of one other incident in Britain in my memory, the Hungerford massacre in August 1987. Michael Ryan. And he had guns.

These sorts of incidents do stamp themselves on public consciousness. I can't remember any others. So, number of angst-ridden teens going on shooting rampages? None at all. Number of angst-ridden teens going on any other sort of killing rampage? None at all. Number of nutjob middle-aged men going on rampages with lethal intent? Three. Number of these involving guns? Two. Number involving machetes? One. Number of fatal gun incidents among these? Two. Number of fatal machete attacks among these? None.

Yes, there are different sorts of killings, primarily terrorist attacks, formerly the IRA and now Moslem extremists. There have even been a couple of certifiably insane Scottish "nationalists". They have used different means, with greater or lesser success.

But the phenomenon of the lone weirdo setting out to kill a bunch of people and then possibly himself, well, the evidence of our experience is that non-gun-related incidents are rare and the one non-gun-related incident that happened was not fatal.

Rolfe.

PS. One thing that really shocked me at the time of Dunblane was an American commentator who seemed to be glad that we'd had a school gun massacre too, so that he could point to it and say, look, it still happens even where there are strict gun controls, so this is a good argument against gun control. How twisted can you get?
 
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Not a machete but I do recall a sword attack.

No one died.


Oh, I have some recollection of that now. Of course, when nobody is killed, it doesn't stick in the mind so much. I had some trouble tracking down the Wolverhampton report because I'd forgotten where it happened. So, two sword/machete wielding attackers, total death toll nil. Wolverhampton and Thornton Heath - just places.

Nobody in Britain will ever be able to rid the names of Hungerford and Dublane of their terrible associations though.

Rolfe.
 
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