Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Bill, scientific work (theses presented to the arena of science) must be testable by peers, who would want to replicate your work. This means that the actual physical evidences you use to formulate your theory must be made available to others. This means that anything Owen Caddy or others provide you must be made available to them to test your theory for replication of results. There can be no kind of "this is for you Bill Munns, don't give it to anyone else" stuff. If it involves using actual strips of 16mm film, then those must be made available to others besides yourself. If you are working with digital copies of 16mm film... then those digital images must be made available as well as the actual 16mm film that they were copied from. Proper scientific methodology must always work with the primary evidence. In this case, it won't be the digitized images from film - it will be the source film itself.
 
Winston:

once you lay down carpet, does the floor walk around? I can lay flawless seams with the shortest hair on a figure that doesn't move. It's the movement of the human wearing the suit that mucks up the seams. And carpet is generally a kinky pile (meaning fibers not straight) and a kinky fiber hides a seam better than straight fibers common to fur.

Plus, a closure seam (to hide a zipper) is bulkier than a tailoring seam. Ever put a zipper on the carpet and hid that?

Sorry if a duplicate comes up. reply glitch
 
Parcher;

A tradition of science is that peers don't get to test the data and study the source material until the original researcher offers his conclusions. I haven't offered mine yet for the full study.

protocol.

I'm not done yet, but when I am, yes, whatever source data and such i used, will be provided.

:)

Bill
 
Parcher;

relevence is in relation to the hypothesis. Your hypothesis, I would gather is proving "hoax", so all that's relevent to your arguments.

My hypothesis is different than yours, so what is relevent to mine is different than what's relevent to yours.

Please try to say this differently, because I don't really know where you are going with this. BTW, feel free to save keystrokes by calling me "WP".
 
Anyone not interested in spelling quibbles, please skip.

Log, as this could easily devolve into bantering, I will try and keep this light and polite.
Bill this is highly presumptuous if not arrogant. Please do not pursue the holder of the shining truth vs evil skeptics schtick. Erroneous data and statements are discussed ase are poor reasonings trying to bring veracity to the PGF. Nothing you have written is intimidating in anyway and I certainly feel no obligation to join a bigfoot enthusiast's forum to discuss it.

You're obviously new to internet forums and the kind of social interaction they entail. You found the BFF, started posting your musings and immediately got accolades and attention from the kids 'round the fire there. They encouraged you, you encouraged them. You present your musings in an apparent scientific package which excites the footers. They strive and long for legitimacy so of course they react this way. Meanwhile, while your every word becomes doted on by your new fan club, people who conduct critical inquiry into the PGF take note of the bigfoot enthusiast's flavour(flavor) of the month and note the 'wisdom' in some of these musings. Again, being new to the concept of internet forums, having your musings criticized is taken personally and now your spend much time here addressings (addressing) those criticisms.

What you don't seem willing to recognize is that some of those criticisms are valid.
Kitakaze

I've taken the liberty of correcting your spelling.

Thank you for catching my typo of 'addressing'. I try not to make them but I was in a rush to finish the post and get out the door. Apparently you took my earlier corrections as my being facetious. I did try to make clear that was not my intention. Now please keep in mind I said "I have taken the liberty of correcting some of your spelling, just to help."

'Some' meaning that I intentionally left alone things like 'thier' which was an obvious typo and even 'proported' (purported) as I only meant to correct what I felt were significant mistakes that obscured the meaning of the word. I trust you had the same intention with the spelling mistakes I've highlighted in my above post that you've left uncorrected. I realize that being in the habit of quibbling over spelling in general can be very annoying.

For example, I would be more interested in questioning your understanding of the word 'modality' or the coherence of your writing in general than pointing out your misspelling of the word 'disdain' in the rest of your post below. I tell you what, I won't make a habit of correcting your or anyone else's spelling (it's not my style, anyway). But I would be most appreciative if you could explain why you consider the changing of flavour to flavor to be a correction.

Do you see some error when I write things like rumour, favour, colour, behaviour, rancour, demeanour, etc.?

That said I find it strange that you of all people would comment on the apparent arrogance of Bill Munns when your level of arrogance is perhaps unequaled here. But then there is a tendency to turn a blind eye to one’s own, shall we say, less than flattering shortcomings. You speak time and time again of enlightened thought and thinking and yet you feel the need to berate the membership of another internet community. In this case to use your terminology “kids around the fire”. I come to this place because it challenges me. It challenges me to read with steady measure the things you post while my skin is crawling with distain. I suggest you actually try operating in that enlightened modality that you so often claim to adhere to. The first step of attaining that modality may be to show this internet community that you are well and truly comfortable with your knowledge and viewpoint. And by that I mean comfortable is not having to reduce the opposing viewpoints which whether or not they agree with yours are nevertheless your intellectual equal. And without hesitation I can say that none of those “kids around the fire” are as vile as you.
Log, I could well see how you would think me arrogant and vile. You say silly things, have trouble writing coherently, making and carry through sensical discussions, and believe in bigfoot. I point it out, you get flustered. I get it.

Steady.

Two final things:

1) Yeah, I'll make a reference to the BFF saying "kids 'round the fire." Besides the point that I think many may actually be kids, the behaviour (hey, a 'u'!) there often has that atmosphere to it. I might call Loose Change 'truther' members 'deluded idiots'. Would you mind?

2) I'm guessing there's not much point in pursuing if you consider Chico being at the PGF film site important.
 
William Parcher said:
Set nothing aside. Bill, are you really trying to engage in scientific methodology? Don't exclude anything. These things you call 'non-issues' really must be part of your theory and included in your analysis. They are important issues simply because they are 'non issues'. Therefore, they are evidences.

WP, not to speak for Bill, but he hasn't avoided them. Even though he is acknowledging that he is no longer taking them into account, he already did do (however rudimentary the analysis may have been - even as simple as just looking at it) an analysis on those items and deemed each of them to be "possible within the realms of man in a suit".

The way I understand it, and Bill correct me if I'm wrong, is that due to this factor, he would never be able to prove it one way or another, so each of those particular aspects or points are moot. So consequently he will be analyzing particulars within the footage where it may not be possible for it to be a man in a suit. (ie: flex, stretching, etc).
 
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WP

Okay, I'll try this again. If I say my hypothesis is to study if a type of cloth can be tailored to a human shape, and then changed (by a human wearing the cloth) into another shape, without showing any cloth-like folds, why should i care about cowboy boots in fake feet?

For my hypothesis, the boots don't matter. So I exclude them.

:)

Bill

sgoodman72

you are correct. thank you.
 
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Do you know for sure that I'm "unable to handle the debate"...and that I'm evading questions...or are you, instead, talking out of your hind end?
It's natural for me to think that way, Sweaty. You take the time to post with excuses when you could just answer the question or address the debate.

I'm guessing you don't see the humour in that.
 
It's natural for me to think that way, Sweaty. You take the time to post with excuses when you could just answer the question or address the debate.

I'm guessing you don't see the humour in that.

I suppose I haven't been around long enough to fully appreciate this, but it is the only real critique I have of Sweaty. Aside from him seeming to bring out an ample amount of banter and angst which leads to a divergance from the real issue, he will make posts about not having the time to post.
 
Okay, I'll try this again. If I say my hypothesis is to study if a type of cloth can be tailored to a human shape, and then changed (by a human wearing the cloth) into another shape, without showing any cloth-like folds, why should i care about cowboy boots in fake feet?

For my hypothesis, the boots don't matter. So I exclude them.

So your 'work' is to be strictly limited to the external material or skin/hair of Patty? If so, then please quit with the arm length ratio, hands-in-gloves, and feet stuff pronto, ok? Better tell the folks on BFF that everything else (other than external material) you talked about is just your ancillary musings.

sgoodman72

you are correct. thank you.

I see that Goodman spoke for you, with your approval. Should I engage him, or you, concerning what he said?
 
The 112% to 115% armspan to height ratio came from my putting a Poser Michael 3 model against various PG frames, and aligning body parts. If I used a normal male figure with 100% ratio (same armspan and height), the human arms were about 6-7 inches short for Patty's hands, as far as i could tell. So I scaled up the human until I could align the head and hands, and found the legs too long. So I shortened the legs and got feet into Patty feet
.

If Patty is a man in a suit, then how can you say anything about the arm span? You don't know the arm span of the person in the suit. You only know the apparent arm span produced by the suit. Same for leg length, etc.

You could be measuring a suit when you measure the subject of the PGF.

I understand that you have to start somewhere, but it seems a bit odd to measure Patty and draw conclusions when Patty might be a man in a suit.

It reminds me of claims of inhuman measurements for Patty. Well, if it's a suit, of course you'll get inhuman measurements. Of course the IM index doesn't match a human, etc.
 
Anyway, I did just go back and view that scene a few times in the footage, and the thumb I see is definitely a thumb, not background debris or any other object.

Well, it's the inside edge of her hand, so it's a given that it's a thumb, even though it's impossible for me to actually make out a distinct thumb in the original image.

That's a cibachrome enlargement and enhancement, so you have to be careful when you see details.
 
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So your 'work' is to be strictly limited to the external material or skin/hair of Patty? If so, then please quit with the arm length ratio, hands-in-gloves, and feet stuff pronto, ok? Better tell the folks on BFF that everything else (other than external material) you talked about is just your ancillary musings.



I see that Goodman spoke for you, with your approval. Should I engage him, or you, concerning what he said?


WP, if your question is in regards to Bill's work specifically, then you should definitely ask him. It was my impression that the point Bill was trying to convey was being misconstrued, so I worded it in a way in hopes of clarification.

So if your request or question involves my comments specifically, then you can by all means hit me with it.

EDIT: Also in defense of Bill again, it isn't necessarily ancillary musings as you word it. He did a full and quite comprehensive research study on these ratio's with the Michael 3 model that you are well aware of. I suppose he just determined that b/c it was within the potential realm for human capacity, that he shouldn't pursue that as a point any further becuase it could always be argued equally from either side as being real or hoax. But he still did his homework on it.

Again his specific point he tried to make was that he wants to only concentrate on aspects that specifically may prove or disprove it to be a possible to be a suit. When he finds out one such aspect is within this realm of possibility (of being suit), he notes it and moves on, or "excludes" it if you will. Like the breasts, gloves/hands, etc.

And I'd like to point out that other members are prodding him on questions about ratio's and stuff, and he's just explaning to them what he did, he's not bringing it up as new evidence, just defending his previous work. But on this forum he is wnating to concentrate on these other aspects that I mentioned.
 
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Bill, JMHO but I see a significant difference in substance and tone between this post of yours here at the JREF and the one following at the BFF:
On a list of five reasons I think patty's not a suit? Haven't got a list yet. I have maybe a few dozen areas of the figure I'm still studying, and some I have set aside. The breasts to me are a non issue. Can be a suit. The walk I ignore. Can be a man, as far as I know. The film speed i ignore because i see no bearing on the suit materials. The anatomy of the figure can have a human inside, feet in feet, head in head mask, and hands in gloves, if the human has an armspan 112% to 115% of height, which apparently many basketball players do have. So those are issues I personally have discounted, from my perspective. Any of those are possibly explained by suits and humans.

Best I can tell you at this point.
A concession with specifics that so much can be explained by hoax and...

So the probability issue, as related to the real thing, remains a question we can't answer yet. All we can say is that as the probability of a suit goes down, the probability of a real creature goes up as the most credible alternate explanation.

And I, for one, see the odds of a suit going south, on a one way ticket.
A vague yet confident statement with no specifics guaranteed to excite bigfoot enthusiasts indicating an impending demise of the far, far more likely hoax explanation.

That is an important contradiction to me.
 
Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to have a new thread for a "suit" or "not a suit" discussion?

This thread is already enormous and things get lost in it.

My own 2 cents, I think it would be a good idea to keep everything PGF related in this one thread. I know it can get confusing, but when you start making new threads, you'll inevitably start talking about that separate thread in this one, and then it's just like you're back to 2 different forums again. I think it should all be contained within one. Again just my 2 cents.
 
Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to have a new thread for a "suit" or "not a suit" discussion?

This thread is already enormous and things get lost in it.

Considering a suit is the only realistic 'alternative' (in 1967) to a real sasquatch - I'd welcome that idea to save diluting the discussion.

ETA quote as sgoodman72 beat me to it!
 
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