[Ed]Hardfire with Mark Roberts and Arthur Scheuerman

question is: have you? and have you contacted those witnesses to confirm their accounts? If you haven't, why? Why are you second guessing their statements instead of getting clarification from those who made those statements?
 
And if I'm out there on the scene and I'm a trained firefighter, if I hear something that goes completely against my training, personal knowledge, and years of experience, that makes me think something's amiss. Wouldn't it for you? On a day when so many of my friends and co-workers have died tragically, you better believe I'd be raising quite a stink if I suspected anything. Yet here you seem to be suggesting they just blindly, unquestioningly, accepted whatever was passed on to them from "someone" and never thought for themselves whatsoever.

On the contrary, in the very show we're discussing here, Chief Sheuerman states that it was a difficult task to get people to leave the collapse zone they wanted to evacuate, because they didn't want to leave the pile or halt their search for victims. They had a reason to want to stay, to not just go along with what they were told, yet to a man they each evacuated and not one has voiced any second thoughts about that decision to this very day.
 
Arus808 said:
question is: have you? and have you contacted those witnesses to confirm their accounts? If you haven't, why? Why are you second guessing their statements instead of getting clarification from those who made those statements?
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Have I gone through the list of eyewitness accounts? Absolutely. Why don't you?
 
I think that she is asking why you don't contact the FDNY and their eyewitness accounts directly from them. Skip the middleman, as it were.
 
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TheRedWorm said:
I think that she is asking why you don't contact the FDNY and get their statements directly from them. Skip the middleman, as it were.
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its been suggested that he do so since he started to question their statements from his first foray into JREF. How long has red been here? how many posts? and he still wont get the answers from "the horses' mouths".
 
TheRedWorm said:
Not a single firefighter has come forward in the intervening six years to express even the slightest bit of doubt or suspicion regarding the "official explanation" for the collapse of WTC7. Why is that?

Succinct enough for government work.
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RedIbis said:
Is the opinion of the collapse available from every firefighter on the scene?
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You do know what "come forward" means, don't you? It's not necessary for the opinion of every firefighter on the scene that day to be recorded for even one to come forward. Why would you even post that?
 
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Can you ask a quote a question? Quotes are good, but they only tell part of the story, and, as I have said cannot: answer questions, offer clarifications, and expand of pertinent topics like a real live human being can. That is why, if you are unclear on something, you might start getting clarification not on the internet, but rather through talking to those that were there on 9/11.
 
TheRedWorm said:
Can you ask a quote a question? Quotes are good, but they only tell part of the story, and, as I have said cannot: answer questions, offer clarifications, and expand of pertinent topics like a real live human being can. That is why, if you are unclear on something, you might start getting clarification not on the internet, but rather through talking to those that were there on 9/11.
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I've talked to lots of people on the scene on 9/11. I was born in that city. I have friends and family very much personally affected.
 
Did any of these people you talked to include members of the FDNY? I know that everyone, even indirectly was affected by 9/11. I can't pretend that I was affected directly, nor can I pretend that anyone I know (outside the internet) was directly affected either. But one thing I do know, is that I don't know. I don't know what it was like to be there on that day. I don't know what it was like to have to watch in horror as two of the main landmarks of my city fell. I don't know how I'd react to watching people I know learn of a loved one's death. Hell, I don't know how I'd react to any one of thousands of things that happened. The only thing I can say for sure is that I can guarantee that I'd be angry.
 
RedIbis said:
If you're going to be obnoxious and bump posts that deal with speculation, at least ask a specific question, preferably one that is succinct.
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I'm not sure how much more specific I can make the question.

And I'm sorry that my repeated attempts to get you to answer it have offended you. For a minute there, I thought we were on a forum for the intended purpose of discussing such issues. My bad.

I'll break this down as simply as I can. Feel free to correct any false positions I have assigned your side of the debate.

CTer: WTC7 collapsed due to controlled demolition!

Debunker: Actually, it was debris damage and fire.

CTer: How do you know?

Debunker: All the firefighters on the scene witnessed this damage and fire, and many predicted the immenent collapse of WTC7 as a result. None were surprised when WTC7 eventually did collapse.

CTer: Actually, if you read the oral histories of those firefighters, you will see that most of them were told about the imminent collapse rather than making that determination themselves.

Debunker: Fine, I'll concede that point. But it's been over six year since that day and none of those firefighters have expressed any doubts or suspicion regarding what you claim they were merely told. How do you account for this?

CTer: ......

Debunker: You don't think that rank and file firefighters were complicit in 9/11, do you?

CTer: Absolutely not! They're heroes!

Debunker: Fair enough. But then you'll have to explain how none of those rank and file firefighters, professionals who witnessed all these events firsthand, have come forward to express even the slightest doubt or suspicion regarding the official explanation for the collapse of WTC7. Especially when you consider that laypersons such as yourself were able to ascertain the so-called truth merely by watching a Youtube video.

So you see RedIbis, this is a crucial point for the case CTers are presenting, and one they routinely ignore.

This isn't some nitpick over what a word means, or what the contents of a dust particle reveal.

We are often told that WTC7 is the "smoking gun" of 9/11. No planes crashed into it. The extent of the damage and fires is called into question.

CTers claim that to prove that WTC7 was a CD will unravel the whole conspiracy.

So it follows that my question cuts to the very heart of your conspiracy theory.

And for once, I'd like to see one of you man up and give me and answer.
 
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johnny karate said:
I'm not sure how much more specific I can make the question.

And I'm sorry that my repeated attempts to get you to answer it have offended you. For a minute there, I thought we were on a forum for the intended purpose of discussing such issues. My bad.

I'll break this down as simply as I can. Feel free to correct any false positions I have assigned your side of the debate.

CTer: WTC7 collapsed due to controlled demolition!

Debunker: Actually, it was debris damage and fire.

CTer: How do you know?

Debunker: All the firefighters on the scene witnessed this damage and fire, and many predicted the immenent collapse of WTC7 as a result. None were surprised when WTC7 eventually did collapse.

CTer: Actually, if you read the oral histories of those firefighters, you will see that most of them were told about the imminent collapse rather than making that determination themselves.

Debunker: Fine, I'll concede that point. But it's been over six year since that day and none of those firefighters have expressed any doubts or suspicion regarding what you claim they were merely told. How do you account for this?

CTer: ......

Debunker: You don't think that rank and file firefighters were complicit in 9/11, do you?

CTer: Absolutely not! They're heroes!

Debunker: Fair enough. But then you'll have to explain how none of those rank and file firefighters, professionals who witnessed all these events firsthand, have come forward to express even the slightest doubt or suspicion regarding the official explanation for the collapse of WTC7. Especially when you consider that laypersons such as yourself were able to ascertain the so-called truth merely by watching a Youtube video.

So you see RedIbis, this is a crucial point for the case CTers are presenting, and one they routinely ignore.

This isn't some nitpick over what a word means, or what the contents of a dust particle reveal.

We are often told that WTC7 is the "smoking gun" of 9/11. No planes crashed into it. The extent of the damage and fires is called into question.

CTers claim that to prove that WTC7 was a CD will unravel the whole conspiracy.

So it follows that my question cuts to the very heart of your conspiracy theory.

And for once, I'd like to see one of you man up and give me and answer.
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I asked you for a succinct question and you responded with a longwinded fantasy dialogue. At least you conceded the important point.

CTer: Actually, if you read the oral histories of those firefighters, you will see that most of them were told about the imminent collapse rather than making that determination themselves.

Debunker: Fine, I'll concede that point.
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If the FDNY was told some disinfo by....whoever....then why don't they find the collapse of WTC7 the least bit odd?

Are they that stupid?
 
DGM said:
Just out of curiosity, How is that important?
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It debunks the oft repeated Gravy point that everyone on the scene knew WTC 7 was going to collapse, as opposed to what actually happened, word was passed on to the street.
 
Just come out and say it, Red: the FDNY are a bunch of non-thinking morons.

Why else would they so blindly accept the word of...someone...when steel buildings cannot collapse from fire?
 
RedIbis said:
It debunks the oft repeated Gravy point that everyone on the scene knew WTC 7 was going to collapse, as opposed to what actually happened, word was passed on to the street.
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And this leads to? Are we going for childish points or is this of some significance?
 
DGM said:
And this leads to? Are we going for childish points or is this of some significance?
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If you don't think that's an important point, so be it, that's your damn business.

Maybe you should retreat from these debates as others are doing so these subtle but important points won't be brought to your attention and your dearly held myths are not destroyed in front of you.
 
RedIbis said:
If you don't think that's an important point, so be it, that's your damn business.

Maybe you should retreat from these debates as others are doing so these subtle but important points won't be brought to your attention and your dearly held myths are not destroyed in front of you.
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Why the attack? I asked you why this is significant. Can't you answer this?
 
einsteen said:
Gravy is an entertaining guy of course but he doesn't add anything valuable to the discussion.
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Not since he finished debunking the troofer claims two or three years ago. Since then I guess he's just repeated them for the benefit of those who weren't paying attention...
 
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