[Ed]Hardfire with Mark Roberts and Arthur Scheuerman

NYCEMT86 said:
I want him to refute the points Johnny Karate, Redtail and I have made. If he can't, I want him to admit he is wrong and doesn't know what he talking about.
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Please check Gravy's list of Eyewitness Accounts to the Withdrawal of WTC 7
Notice how many of the accounts refer to "they" as to who said or handed down the word that the bldg was going to collapse.

Look at how many times the firefighters refer to what "they said" as to when, how and in what direction the bldg was going to collapse.

The firefighters in general did not assess that the bldg was going to collapse, the firefighters passed on the word they'd received.
 
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RedIbis said:
Please check Gravy's list of Eyewitness Accounts to the Withdrawal of WTC 7
Notice how many of the accounts refer to "they" as to who said or handed down the word that the bldg was going to collapse.

Look at how many times the firefighters refer to what "they said" as to when, how and in what direction the bldg was going to collapse.

The firefighters in general did not assess that the bldg was going to collapse, the firefighters passed on the word they'd received.
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So NWO agents ("They") were running around the site of WTC7 telling FDNY that the building would collapse.....and none of the firefighters questioned them? Even though everyone knows that steel buildings cannot collapse from fire?

Weird...
 
CHF said:
So NWO agents ("They") were running around the site of WTC7 telling FDNY that the building would collapse.....and none of the firefighters questioned them? Even though everyone knows that steel buildings cannot collapse from fire?

Weird...
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Your post proves that you are not interested in the most accurate analysis. If you hear Gravy and Ron on Hardfire say that everyone knew WTC 7 was going to collapse, you cheer them on.

When the actual quotes are given to you that proves a subtle but important distinction that everyone did not believe the collapse was inevitable, but the word was actually passed down, you respond with sarcastic strawman replies.
 
RedIbis said:
Your post proves that you are not interested in the most accurate analysis.
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And your belief that the U.S. govt was complicit in the murder of 3000 people, but posts here instead of doing something to bring justice proves what?

Each night Red, when you go to sleep knowing your govt murdered 3000 people, does it make you feel satisfied that you've done your part by trolling on the JREF forum?

My how your family must be proud of you.
 
RedIbis said:
Please check Gravy's list of Eyewitness Accounts to the Withdrawal of WTC 7
Notice how many of the accounts refer to "they" as to who said or handed down the word that the bldg was going to collapse.
Click to expand...

How does that not apply to what I said above? Its the repsonsibility of the Safety Officer and IC to make those calls, they AREN'T going to make that call if its unfounded. With an operation the size of the WTC the responsibilites would have delegated to crews since the safety officer can't be every where at one time. As I said before, SOC units, especially those who are trained on the collapse units would have been on scene and assessing the scene and buildings.

Look at how many times the firefighters refer to what "they said" as to when, how and in what direction the bldg was going to collapse.

The firefighters in general did not assess that the bldg was going to collapse, the firefighters passed on the word they'd received.
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How do you know that no firefighter assessed the building? You are assuming that every single firefighter has to see the building damage in order to make that order true.
 
DavidJames said:
And your belief that the U.S. govt was complicit in the murder of 3000 people, but posts here instead of doing something to bring justice proves what?

Each night Red, when you go to sleep knowing your govt murdered 3000 people, does it make you feel satisfied that you've done your part by trolling on the JREF forum?

My how your family must be proud of you.
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Righteous indignation is the equivalent of waving the white flag in these forum debates.
 
NYCEMT86 said:
How does that not apply to what I said above? Its the repsonsibility of the Safety Officer and IC to make those calls, they AREN'T going to make that call if its unfounded. With an operation the size of the WTC the responsibilites would have delegated to crews since the safety officer can't be every where at one time. As I said before, SOC units, especially those who are trained on the collapse units would have been on scene and assessing the scene and buildings.



How do you know that no firefighter assessed the building? You are assuming that every single firefighter has to see the building damage in order to make that order true.
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I never said every firefighter. I'm not the one using absolutes, such as "everyone knew it was going to collapse." No, everyone had heard that it was expected to collapse. Big difference.
 
chillzero said:
Too late



Doesn't matter now. :)
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This was one his longer lasting socks and.......I kinda hate to admit it......I was looking forward to his "epic" destruction of this Hardfire episode.

Oh well.
 
RedIbis said:
Please check Gravy's list of Eyewitness Accounts to the Withdrawal of WTC 7
Notice how many of the accounts refer to "they" as to who said or handed down the word that the bldg was going to collapse.

Look at how many times the firefighters refer to what "they said" as to when, how and in what direction the bldg was going to collapse.

The firefighters in general did not assess that the bldg was going to collapse, the firefighters passed on the word they'd received.
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Assuming what you say is true, what this doesn't account for is why not a single firefighter has come forward in the intervening six years to express even the slightest bit of doubt or suspicion regarding the "official explanation" for the collapse of WTC7.

Not a single one.

So far none of your brethren has been able reconcile this inconvenient fact with an inside job that doesn't include complicity of rank and file firefighters.

I'd love to see you give it a try.
 
RedIbis said:
Your post proves that you are not interested in the most accurate analysis. If you hear Gravy and Ron on Hardfire say that everyone knew WTC 7 was going to collapse, you cheer them on.

When the actual quotes are given to you that proves a subtle but important distinction that everyone did not believe the collapse was inevitable, but the word was actually passed down, you respond with sarcastic strawman replies.
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Well by all means, Red....tell me who "they" is.

While some FDNY said WTC7 would come down based on what their own eyes told them, other FDNY were told that WTC7 would collapse, and apparently believed it and expressed no shock at WTC7's collapse.

So who's "they?"
 
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RedIbis said:
Please check Gravy's list of Eyewitness Accounts to the Withdrawal of WTC 7
Notice how many of the accounts refer to "they" as to who said or handed down the word that the bldg was going to collapse.

Look at how many times the firefighters refer to what "they said" as to when, how and in what direction the bldg was going to collapse.

The firefighters in general did not assess that the bldg was going to collapse, the firefighters passed on the word they'd received.
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Common sense, Red. Come on.
As there were firefighters who believed WTC 7 was possibly coming down, it would be of extreme importance to pass the word to everyone so that everyone would be aware.
You don't just pass the word to some and assume the rest will take assessments from different vantage points. Some may not have seen the greater danger that those with a better view to assess from could.
 
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Totovader said:
In the world of silly conspiracy theories, only people who are the head of something get to understand, measure, predict, or make decisions based on any information. Everyone else falls under people who are the head of something, and they blindly do what they're told without question.

It is only through accepting the power of conspiracism that the pitiful state of humanity can be vanquished by... listening to what the heads of the conspiracism movement tell others to think...
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Conspiracy theorists seem to believe that the rest of the world exists in some sort of blatant master-slave relationship...
 
Cl1mh4224rd said:
Conspiracy theorists seem to believe that the rest of the world exists in some sort of blatant master-slave relationship...
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I see this conviction a lot in Apollo "hoax" conspiracies, where the CTs have to believe the whole space program was simply dictated by a few evil geniuses at the top, and all the civil servants and contractors and scientists marched blindly to these orders, unable to discern the truth in their own fields of expertise. Similarly, 9/11 CTs need to believe that rank-and-file firefighters only knew what was told to them by superiors, and couldn't observe and figure things out for themselves. It's nonsense, of course, and it's uniformly asserted by people who know nothing about aerospace in the first case or firefighting in the second. I'm sure it's the same way with conspiracy claims in many other areas.
 
RedIbis said:
Righteous indignation is the equivalent of waving the white flag in these forum debates.
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Where is YOUR righteous indignation? From what we've seen, it doesn't bother you that your government has callously murdered 3000 innocent people. It seems simply to be an intellectual exercise to you...interesting, but not enough to motivate you to serious action.

Naturally, many of us here find that to be extremely odd.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Where is YOUR righteous indignation? From what we've seen, it doesn't bother you that your government has callously murdered 3000 innocent people. It seems simply to be an intellectual exercise to you...interesting, but not enough to motivate you to serious action.

Naturally, many of us here find that to be extremely odd.
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It's quite presumptious of you to assume you know anything about me, how I responded to these events and how I continue to deal with them.

It takes discipline to discuss these issues dispassionately and the only way to research the unfortunate details.
 
RedIbis said:
Your post proves that you are not interested in the most accurate analysis. If you hear Gravy and Ron on Hardfire say that everyone knew WTC 7 was going to collapse, you cheer them on.

When the actual quotes are given to you that proves a subtle but important distinction that everyone did not believe the collapse was inevitable, but the word was actually passed down, you respond with sarcastic strawman replies.
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Your unwillingness to contact the firefighters who were there to clarify the statements that you take issue with shows that you are not interested in the most accurate analysis. Their accounts of the day are what they are, evidence that the building was sufficiently damaged by debris and fire that they believed that it would collapse. If you interview them, you might find verification of your speculative opinion. Will you? Or would you rather not risk finding out that they did in fact believe the building would collapse?
 
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